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On 2/17/2021 at 4:29 PM, Buddelmuddel said:

I would fix the the decomposer bug, so that it only targets your own units.

 

It would bring a little more skill into speedrunning. Maybe even add that every position has 4 orbs that they can take, and none of the other positions can take them. Additionally make ami monument and enlightment t4.

 

When you are a new player you do think that a good time is associated with good players, but 85% of the needed time is determined from your deck, your strategy and AI understanding. Basically the last minute decides how well a team has excecuted a map, and not if they were 5 or 10 minutes faster. Although to understand the AI and play around it, does take a little skill.

 

If the campaings would be played properly there would be a little more diversity in ranks, and it would be more incentive to play the maps, cause not everyone could do them easily. Its a little sad, when 1 players who knows what he is doing achieves a better time, then when 4 people know what they are doing, but they play the game instead of feeding.

But then again, if it would be more known that good times do not have to be associated with good players, then it wouldn`t matter in the end. Although it would be nice if you play a map normally in a good way, people could see that you played it well. Maybe there could be 2 rankings, one with every bug abuse possible. And one where you play the map in the casual way, just efficient.

 

Additionally I would add maybe 200 more energy on camapign maps, so that the start isnt so dang slow.

Buddel this post proofs you have no real clue about top speedrunning. There is more than enough skill in speedrunning. Just for your information - not every map is braindead like bad harvest. Even if you dont believe it - to get top times every second counts from the beginning and every step is teamplay and completely coordinated - there are a lot of details even for the parts of feeding. You never participated in any real speedruns (except some battleground) so you cant even rate the current speedrun mechanics and level of gameplay of it.

For you to summarize the important points:

-speedruns using sometimes feeding but just with feeding you dont will get a top time in the rankings - feeding is one part of the tactic but not more

-the good times are associated with good players --> try to beat my one player all-time records --> if you are done with it tell me again that i am not a good player (btw no decomposer is used here) --> for top times you need a team consisting of good players --> there is much more than just feeding

-even without amii, decomposer and enlightment the expert maps are quite simple --> the same players would still dominate the rankings --> just check the latest pve community challenges that were without this cards

-all of our speedruns are more than efficient --> we are always at the energy limit --> top times are not possible without beeing efficient from  the first minute of the game

-using amii, englightment, decomposer is not a bug --> typcial sentence that comes from players that want to join the discussion but have no clue --> just typical hating against speedruners

-all of our and also other speedruns are played quite well --> not appreciating the performance of others is really nice from you ;-)

-in pve is quite typical that a good strategy will lead to the best times and that includes the cards you are using and understanding of the map--> a typcial characteristic of good player is to have the capability to regognize such details and create a tactic with the right cards out of it

Edited by Pritstift
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I'm quite shocked that an experienced player like you is writing nonsense like this. Do you really think all of this restrictions are going to solve the problem? I can assure you, it's not going

I think we have a problems with terms here. Some are speaking of speedrunning and some are speaking about speedrunning - but you mean complete different things. I would rather call the one speedr

Addressing the symptoms rather than the "disease" will not help in this case as @wanky points out above. Please ask yourself the question, why do people resort to these gold runs on BH? My answers to

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4 hours ago, Pritstift said:

Buddel this post proofs you have no real clue about top speedrunning. There is more than enough skill in speedrunning. Just for your information - not every map is braindead like bad harvest. Even if you dont believe it - to get top times every second counts from the beginning and every step is teamplay and completely coordinated - there are a lot of details even for the parts of feeding. You never participated in any real speedruns (except some battleground) so you cant even rate the current speedrun mechanics and level of gameplay of it.

For you to summarize the important points:

-speedruns using sometimes feeding but just with feeding you dont will get a top time in the rankings - feeding is one part of the tactic but not more

-the good times are associated with good players --> try to beat my one player all-time records --> if you are done with it tell me again that i am not a good player (btw no decomposer is used here) --> for top times you need a team consisting of good players --> there is much more than just feeding

-even without amii, decomposer and enlightment the expert maps are quite simple --> the same players would still dominate the rankings --> just check the latest pve community challenges that were without this cards

-all of our speedruns are more than efficient --> we are always at the energy limit --> top times are not possible without beeing efficient from  the first minute of the game

-using amii, englightment, decomposer is not a bug --> typcial sentence that comes from players that want to join the discussion but have no clue --> just typical hating against speedruners

-all of our and also other speedruns are played quite well --> not appreciating the performance of others is really nice from you ;-)

-in pve is quite typical that a good strategy will lead to the best times and that includes the cards you are using and understanding of the map--> a typcial characteristic of good player is to have the capability to regognize such details and create a tactic with the right cards out of it

I know it is a lot of work and the time and ranking and everything is very important to you, but damn...this post does not show you in a very good light tbh.

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10 hours ago, shroomion said:

I know it is a lot of work and the time and ranking and everything is very important to you, but damn...this post does not show you in a very good light tbh.

Its supposed to be like this from my side. We had this kind of discussions several times, over and over again - its ok up to a certain point - but enough is enough. The  post i was referring to was far away from reality and stated a lot of things that are not true and simply just wrong for speedrunning. I am here to clarify these points - but also my patience is limited if its just unobjective hate against speedrunners that stick with the game for years and developed hundred of different strategies by investing a lot of time in it.

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So first of all, its nice that i did get pretty objective replies. In my answer I still wouldn't quote and answer to each single thing said, and would rather write it general.

 

I do have played a few speedruns, I believe we had a rank 1 in blight, king of giants, ascension and passage to darkness, end of the raven and empire, and siege of hope ofc. Monstly I played it one month cause, back then you needed some rank 1 to get the xp for the higher pve rank. Not sure about bad harvest, I believe i played a few games as a feeder in 2009 not sure, if it ended up in a rank, additionaly i did play it 2 times in the carry position but to make it through without dying once I believe I would have had to played it 4-5 times at least, not sure.

On blight I had the carry position and on king of giants I stayed t1, on the empire and end of raven I didnt do much. On all the maps I did not develop any strategies, maybe on blight a bit, because its next to passage to darkness and ascension map 3 the only maps i do sometimes play.

 

As you know I mostly play battelground and I had forgotten about decomposer. But even on battleground I realized if someone has a better time, the person, usually uses a different strategy or deck. You can play the map in a hard or use some speedruns meta deck which usually is pretty easy, but for the last minute it gets a bit difficult.

 

Back then lost spirit ships were meta. Like I said before with wheels or stoneshell, you basically you dont have to look at the monitor to clear the map. But if you play them with motivate, and no defensive spells just more damage spells, then it gets a little tricky, if you have to direct the skyelf additionally and defend somewhere else too.

One of the last speedruns that I did play was lvl 10 solo. I believe I had 25mins with ships in the speedrunway played, then I tried the green batariel, whichwere like about 25 mins too, and without wheels you had to look out for him a bit. Then I tried the black batariel with frenetics, which took then 20 mins, and it was pretty relaxing to play. Then I did look at Treims replay so when I switched the red start to black, it were about 18 mins, I still missed some cardes like nether warp green and 1 other. Then it would have started to get a bit tricky when you have to work with 2 batariels at the same time on the map it gets a little harder.

 

In the campaigns even if you only have your t1, you still have to do your job and focus in a speedrun. Its just not the same complexity as on a carry position in a speedrun.

 

Right now its a bit sad that even in battlegrounds you dont play the map in its usually way, but warp over get the t3 fast, maybe 1-2 players feed. As a battleground player this is a little sad.

 

But to summarize, when I do play with people in lvl 10 that have high ranks in campaigns or even battleground nowadays, they pretty often do not play well. Im happy if they have a basic understanding of how a lvl 10 works, and when im lucky they can adapt to the situation that occurs.

They usually play better then just random unknown players, but not as some unranked players who play battlegrounds more often. Personally the way I play the lvl 10  is that everyone get their t2 alone and you only help if someone needs it. Also you take the t3 alone or together, no orb give ways. The orb giveaway make it easier but takes the fun out of it. If you played a map a bunch of times and then you see it with speedrun techniques its pretty painful to watch.

 

To summarize it again, in a speedrun where you only get t1 you still have to focus, but its easier then when you would have to play till t4. Aditionally some cards just make the game easy, which are usually t4, or with ami or enlightment t3. Without ami and enlightment, to clear a map with just t3, or just t2 is a lot harder. And if you can skip those its easier but again its takes less skill.

 

Would put it this way:

Imagine there was a battleforge, the same as this one only there is a t1 card for 50 energy which kills all opposing structures and units. Then basically all would think this card should be nerved except maybe the one person with the best computer, you was able to use it first and get all the rank 1s.

Then the card get neves to t2. Still people think the card is too good. But now there are already a bunch of people who perfected their t1 and think the card is fine, and they put work into how to get to the t2 the fastest. To the onces who woud like the map to be played till t4, and in a way the game is played usual they say, this is speedrunning, if someone doesnt like it they should play casual.

If the card get reworked to t3, then there is t1, t2 to play and a bunch more people will like it to stay because you can use more techniques to get to the t3 fast.

 

Right now, you basically skip the t3 with enlightment and amii. And you skip the t2 if possible with nether warp. Its fine but makes the map a lot easier. And if you are someone who plays the maps from t1 to t4, and people are suprised about the good times that some people achive, its awkward.

 

Ok, as a last summary, if you want to play with me randoms lvl 10, and you have a good speedrun time somewhere then its a good start, and we can work with that, but there is a pretty long way to go.

Additionally it would be nice to see the times of players who played the maps in the usual way, and to see in which time they can do it. And then compare your own times to them.

 

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58 minutes ago, Emmaerzeh said:

I like the idea of @Buddelmuddel for 2 different speedrun categorys.

ZF. E. like no decomposer, amii + enlightenment and if possible no well and orb sharing. 

This would make everybody happy in best case. 

Zyna said - it's not high priority.

Edited by Loriens
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2 hours ago, Emmaerzeh said:

I like the idea of @Buddelmuddel for 2 different speedrun categorys.

The all is allowed and one with restrictions

F. E. like no decomposer, amii + enlightenment and if possible no well and orb sharing. 

This would make everybody happy in best case. 

Imo this is the best solution. It works well in other speedrunning games, too. They usuallt have a 100% category (in BF this would be the no Decomposer/amii/enlightenment category) and an any% category (where anything goes).

1 hour ago, Loriens said:

Zyna said - it's not high priority.

We don't neccessarily need an ingame leaderboard for this. We can simply make a forum thread or something.

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Really - usally when I was reading a post of @Pritstift about this topic, I had to fully agree with the content on the one hand, while on the other hand I would have pressed the "Dislike" button if we still had it, because I found the sound every time just completely out of line.

That changes...fast... I understand his clear way of writing every day more.

Not only that still farming (best ratio of effort to benefit with maximum "simplicity" at the same time = max gold/exp) and speedruning (going for the fastest possible time = what is a gold reward, we don't care about it) are getting mixed, now comes Buddel and mixes this with ambitious Endgame content (good players, doing a challenging content in different ways with different intentions). What a mess.

 

And to emphasize that again, I think Pritstift already said it: A feeder in a speedrun and a feeder while farming usually don't have much in common in skill level ;)

To take the current 4pl MOTM as an example, yes, of course we use a feeder for a time just over 11 min (tomorrow the 11 drops), but:

1) feel free to try the map as you described with a feeder (@Buddelmuddel) and you'll find that alone probably won't get you much below the 15 min - if you have 2 good bata pushers. Plus player 4 doesn't have his T2 available, have fun feeding there and pulling over Enlightenment Batariel before the T3 camp - it doesn't work out so easily.

2) Yes, our feeder doesn't even need 20 cards ( he "needs" around 15?), yes he has a slightly easier job than the main Batariel player who has to make 8 (?) camps with his Batariel in those 11 min (and he has to have his Batariel first), but: His job is not easy and with a "I need a runner for BH" feeder you won't get far. Every spell and every move has to be right, and even a player who mainly feeds can take on other tasks - and these 1000 little things, which mesh like fine cogs, with a good overall strategy, make up real speedruns in the end.

Even the good duo run we did on the MOTM 4 (~15min) has the decomposer as a key card - but seriously, if it's so easy, why doesn't anyone do it?

Here, in my opinion, 2, or 3, things are permanently mixed:

Farming
- If the decomposer leads to situations like we currently have on Bad Harvest, then I can understand that this worries some. I personally know this phenomenon from many games and would simply ignore it, but of course I can also understand if you want to remedy this.

Speedrun
- Some people here act as if the Decomposer would automatically lead to best times - but this is actually simply wrong. We see it in the fact that the all-time records are so firmly in the hands of a group that to deny them the skill simply borders on madness. And not only the alltimes, they also dominate the rpve every month they really participate. And also the chasing pack is actually known from watching by now quite well :)
If it's only the Decomposer and the Enlightenment, then I wonder why there are so rarely new names in the rankings. So what is the problem here with it?

Abuse
- Some rightly complain when the Decomposer is used without agreement and against the will of the "feeder", but hey, what are we talking about, report and well, that should hopefully fall under a rule-breaking and therefore punishable behavior, right?

What remains (to me) are basic balancing questions, and these should be discussed in a more relaxed setting and by people who are deeply versed in the game mechanics - a.k.a our balancing team, which I trust completely.


On the subject of different modes - against. The hardly used PvP mode shows best, that this work would be in vain.
Otherwise I would like to have a subranking for runs that were made in the waxing moon phase on odd days by players who wear a blue baseball cap

partly Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

 

tl;dr

there is no simple answer, read it :D

 

 

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This thread was about something else. Not about how much skill speedrunning needs, not about new categories. It's about an increasing mass of players who engage in the most braindead + overefficient goldfarm ever known to casual players. Some people find this problematic.

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9 hours ago, SunWu said:

This thread was about something else. Not about how much skill speedrunning needs, not about new categories. It's about an increasing mass of players who engage in the most braindead + overefficient goldfarm ever known to casual players. Some people find this problematic.

Yeah the whole thing has been pulled in a very different direction xD I am not getting why we don't simply make a poll and leave it at that. Everything has already been said..no matter how often we repeat it, the pros and cons stay the same.

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23 hours ago, SunWu said:

This thread was about something else. Not about how much skill speedrunning needs, not about new categories. It's about an increasing mass of players who engage in the most braindead + overefficient goldfarm ever known to casual players. Some people find this problematic.

yes, yes, yes.

 

Quote

Yes, our feeder doesn't even need 20 cards ( he "needs" around 15?), yes he has a slightly easier job than the main Batariel player who has to make 8 (?)

Its not about games where Feeders have 15 cards... its about Bad Harvest where, to be hones 2 of 3 feeders could have 1 card only. I feel that runners check for lightblade and ice barrier mostly for knewing that "feeder" speeks english and will follow his "spam one unit" part.


Its absolutly not about feeders in PvE10 or real speedrun. Its about showing new players something that they don't understand, dont't bring fun to them... but still its most viable grinding mechanic in game. Who will stay in such game?

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5 hours ago, Draconnor said:

its about Bad Harvest

I apologize if I have elaborated further, but in the meantime, unfortunately, it was not only about Bad Harvest.

But if Bad Harvest is the problem, why change the Decomposer and not Bad Harvest? (There were already ideas about this)

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  • 4 weeks later...

I'd like to give an insight of this issue for "normal" players.

I'm not an expert in this game and not intending on becoming a speed runner, however those BH/GoL speedruns are currently ruining the game experience a bit.
I remember the time of battleforge, where PvE lvl and deck lvl could tell more or less how well does someone know the game and expert maps and if you should kick them or not.
Not to mention that buying upgrades wasn't that easy, required PvP rank or farming PvE maps. ( I don't play pvp )

Recently I've been trying to play Crusade on expert for the achievement. My deck and knowledge wasn't good enough to do it solo or carry 2 people. But I could handle one side of the map.
Now the bad experience comes when I had to try 5-6 times, with people joining the game with lvl 100+ deck, and PvE lvl 12 + while having no f-ing idea how this map works or how to play it on expert. I have lost hours just because they got boosted decks/ranks from BH speedruns. Some of them didn't even know they need to teleport to top for t2 orb. They spend 15 min defending 2 power wells at the bottom of the map.
In the end I teamed up with someone who was much better than me, he did finish p2 side before I even got t3, but the point is 80% of people I had to play with didn't know what to do.
It is wasting time of other people. Especially since all maps have unlocked expert difficulty since start. In old battleforge you would have to play it on std/adv first.


On the offtop side I also think amii monument broke this game and should be removed for good, or there should be a checkbox to run with decks w/o amii in them like at good old times.

Edited by Craxx
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Well the issue that PvE rank does not reflect actual game knowledge is partly a thing because you associate certain skill with a certain old rank. But as the Xp requierements have been massively reduced for the highest rank (~90%) same should hold true for your expectation.

Also deck level has never been a reasonable indicator for game knowledge. 

Secondly a big portion of players are veterans that do not want to play every map on the lowest difficulty once, before finally unlocking expert (saves a lot of time for the achievement for instance if u complete all 3 difficulties at once).

Thirdly I can recommend you not to blame single cards but take action yourself:
a) utilize decomposer: If all your teammates are supposedly just mindless feeders, simply ask them to do what they do best and decompose their stuff to get t4 urself and clear with ease
b) Instead of assuming their skill based on vague indicators like rank or deck level, ask them in chat before the game if they know what they have to do and if they done it before
c) Ask in global chat for experienced players and their help
d) or spend 5 minutes to search online for videos/guides on crusade and u get plenty of info afterwhich u can do the map alone in the given time

Lastly, why do you need a checkbox to run w/o Amii Momument, simply remove it from your deck. Crusade can be done in all-time-record speed without amii monument anyway.

Edited by LEBOVIN
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10 hours ago, LEBOVIN said:

PvE rank does not reflect actual game knowledge

Check 

 

10 hours ago, LEBOVIN said:

Also deck level has never been a reasonable indicator for game knowledge. 

Check

 

10 hours ago, LEBOVIN said:

but take action yourself:

Check

 

10 hours ago, LEBOVIN said:

ask them in chat

Only speaking people can be helped, Check!

Or if you want a "tl;dr"

Blame the attitude, not the game :)

EDIT:

 

And that also brings to mind what I think is a very good example.

I like to play a round of rpve from time to time without the perma-present wheel. Do I need a checkbox for that? No.

I open a game myself (the opener can define the "rules" of his game, in my opinion) and politely ask people not to play wheels. Works in 9 out of 10 matches without problems.

Edited by Volin
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On 3/23/2021 at 9:25 PM, LEBOVIN said:

Lastly, why do you need a checkbox to run w/o Amii Momument, simply remove it from your deck. Crusade can be done in all-time-record speed without amii monument anyway.

Because people just don't want to play without it as it makes game too hard for them. Some even get "offended" by such a simple question ( to not use it ) which is ridiculous.

On 3/23/2021 at 9:25 PM, LEBOVIN said:

Thirdly I can recommend you not to blame single cards but take action yourself:

I did and I failed, not afraid to say it. At that point in time my deck didn't allow me to do it and I ran out of time, or simply it was wrong deck. Now it's not an issue anymore.

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On 2/18/2021 at 8:41 PM, Draconnor said:


Edit - 30 min waiting for normal Bad  Harvest today... and at least two players amazed that i want to do it without speed/feed... one almost considered me retarded :P
 

Just write in LFG chat - BH +3 normal run. It's not so hard and long to find players.

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So first off, an argument that I see repeated is "Well, changing Decomposer won't fix issue X". Which is not an argument against changing Decomposer at all, it's just a deflection. You don't just not pull a weed simply because another one can grow in its place or there are other things wrong with your garden. "Don't like it, don't use it" is also a horrible approach to overall gameplay balance, it's also nothing more than a deflection trying to avoid issues. It can be applied to literally anything, so it's a worthless sentiment.

Decomposer is the only card that completely subverts this fundamental of the game: Every player has their own power pool to spend and manage. It's a massive encroachment on game mechanics. The question is whether or not that opens up positive, unique and interesting gameplay options or if it spawns unhealthy gameplay patterns. As a tangential thought, is speedrunning truly meant as a measuring stick for regular gameplay? From what was being said here, I am sure the speedrunners would agree that it is quite the fundamentally different way of interacting with a game.

Having people focus a big part or even the entirety of their gameplay on spawning units in order to generate power for one person definitely falls into the category of unhealthy gameplay patterns. That's unfortunately something that can happen when speedrunning tactics seep into regular play. After all, speedrunners are always at the forefront of pushing the game to its limits and past it.

It's not too relevant for experienced and good speedrunners whether Decomposer can funnel energy into one player or not, no? If your way of enjoying the game is the challenge of finding and executing the fastest, best strategies the loss of such a tool shouldn't matter as restrictions are merely a challenge and breed creativity. And as already noted, if Decomposer was changed the record holders under post-patch conditions would probably stay the same. The tools in the kit of speedrunners change with patches, as they do for all other players, but that doesn't undermine their skill to make the most out of them. If anything, it highlights them.

A different speedrunning category without certain cards or tactics feels like ego stroking, which I guess is fine because that's kind of implicit to mastery of a game, but it is also avoiding the issue.

If so many people keep clinging to status quo, nothing will ever go anywhere in a meaningful way. And discussion about necessary balance changes will be stifled or derailed. You have to confront your biases and be willing to let go of your darlings.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 2/13/2021 at 9:25 PM, Draconnor said:

While speedruning was always part of BF - Decomposer makes some maps a... vulture breeding grounds ;) Today only i saw 2 BH games with 3 feed players waiting for any runner to carry them...
Guns or Riddle can also be abused with that... but they need a little work even from feeders mostly. On BH with Deco... itss all about spawning 5 units and maybe casting one spell/structure.

I knew that there was another thread about speeds... but i don't see problem in speed alone... but simply ask about exact card ;) Mostly because this runs can generate... bad habits and generate many high rank noob plers that fails in other missions - when you are convinced that "this high rank player must knew what to do".  Temptation to do easy run instead more fun but longer one is also a factor that can bore players and make them leave.

by finding howlong a map regulary played needs to be solved could add some benefits to it like the more time is needed the higher the XP and gold rewards alldo with a limitation in leght so speed still would bring a lot of gold and xp but if u need longer than avrage then u get maybe 2x the mount of gold and xp but compairde to a speed run it may takes 4-8 times as long.

example avrage run 20 mins:

0-10 mins = 2000 gold 100 xp +20 xp win

10-20 mins = 3000 Gold 200 xp +20 xp win

20-30 mins = 4000 gold 300 xp +20 xp win

30-40 mins = 5000 gold 400 xp +20 xp win

40+ mins = 6000 gold 500 xp +20 xp win

so 3 speedruns would take up to 30 mins and reward 6000 gold 360 xp but compaired to a avrage run of 20-30 mins its only a + of 2000 gold and 40 xp

that way speed bring still the best way to get gold and xp but aint to much more to other times

(all numbres are only examples)

 

but is a lot of effort for a problem that is kinda not worth the effort. since i played Battleforge under EA and during Beta i got the skill of how to play the game and i only did 1 lvl 5 rpve match at the start (to get some cards and upgrades) and then i played rpve 9 allredy cuase i remeber the how to play way from the passt and the rank aint whats metter always check the deck if u feel uncomfterble. diffrens between bronze and gold rank is for me only the card and upgrade pool how skilled is something else what i primalrly see in how the deck looks. diamond for that rank u have to play a lot and would be to deam bored only doing speed but maybe ur the one that got feeded then. 

Simply check the deck that tells u way more than the rank (like ascension map 1 if the deck only has 2-3 t1 but 5 t4 u will know)

Edited by Asraiel
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  • 2 weeks later...

this feels like someone has a vendetta against the decomposer+BH

decomposer has uses in just a few maps as is mostly the case with many other cards like embalmers shrine+shadow phoenixes or mark of the keeper or manawing or nightguard (and quite a few more)

theyre all kinda broken and op if you look at them from a certain angle.

in my oponion these are just (smart)solutions to certain problems or sometimes workarounds 

for example in nighmare shard, the first camp only has melee units around it and they are numerous and strong and really hard to defeat (maybe impossible?) so lets use manawings to easily kill them all without any danger

or for example go play behind enemy lines with just nightguards for t1 and swap for twilight horros (not sure if thats their name) that the enemy cannot handle (by the way how are they considered t2 for nightguard to be able to swap them) and easily clear t2 and t3 and magically get t4 with amii and game over. you can also use phoenixes that never die because of embalmers shrine 

you get the idea.... some cards in some maps just do soooo well

so is the case with decomposer (though im not saying it should or shouldnt be rebalanced)

but i think Batariel is even worse than all of them.

since it is super op almost everywhere.

for example in rpve. it easily clears a base that another player would need to send 5-6 t4 units. you all know how it is, no need to explain. 

 

 

 

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