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Remove lending LVL120 PVP decks


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I also agree that giving people 120 level decks  isn't best idea. I logged in yesterday hyped after many years of not playing this game. When I saw those free PvP decks all leveled up including all needed cards (even ultra rares!) I felt that there is absolutely no reason to collect cards for me as a mostly PvP player. You dont even have to change anything in these decks, they are absolute top tier. You cant say it's "just" PvP if for some people this is the only content they are intrested in.

At the beggining everyone will have bad decks and everything will be equal. Later on people with better decks will climb the rank and will fight against other people with similarly leveled decks and people with worse decks will fight similar people on lower ranks.

If someone will join the game later on, then it's obvious he will have worse deck than most of the people but that's how it's in other games aswell... When I join MMORPG game 5 years after it's release then I don't expect to have the same level of gear as people who play this game for 5 years. 

For PvPers this situation makes the game lose that card game feeling and makes it just another RTS game.

 

Edited by malldi
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I'd invert this. In Ranked, it should be skill that decides where you end up on the leaderboard. Not capacity for grinding. And the reality is that if you fight with a non-optimized deck vs an optimiz

Agreed. Also, many people say "they take away a part of the game, i.e. grinding for a PvP deck", but imo it's the opposite, they open a new part of the game for me. The thing is, that I do not ha

I mean, you can still grind? But now you can also play (2) decks while you wait And so you are not at a disadvantage vs someone just because you didn't grind enough, and newcomers can get direct

4 hours ago, Japanda said:

i know "Remove lending LVL120 PVP decks" was a harsh phrasing, i read through all responses and think there should be some kind of limitation to those LVL120 PVP decks,

- maybe delay them a month or two 

- or maybe make a seperate sparring/ranked mode for premade decks

- or put the decks behind a fee to rent them, so you still need to grind to use them

- or remove selecting premade decks and distribute them random 

I was talking to Zyna on the discord and he suggested a Collection or Free PvP lobby separation, where the collection mode would only let you use collected cards. Obviously this would be foolproof if the pvp playerbase was big enough (obviously it's not very big), but I would love to see it. 

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4 hours ago, jackbro said:

I was talking to Zyna on the discord and he suggested a Collection or Free PvP lobby separation, where the collection mode would only let you use collected cards. Obviously this would be foolproof if the pvp playerbase was big enough (obviously it's not very big), but I would love to see it. 

That sounds promising, atleast for me. I know there are some people out there who dont have enough time to grind for a lvl 120 deck (even tho i think u dont necessarily need a lvl 120 deck anyway). But preperation for a game between two people (or mutliple people) is also a core mechanic of strategic game like battleforge. Everyone has individual strength and weaknesses and this can be both on either side. Premade decks completly negates that part of the game. I maybe could accept/tolerate seperate queres or modes, but i gernerally prefer the common system of the original game.
I personally also feel like activly trieing to get a better deck and constantly improve it is one of the best parts of the game. Finally getting that lvl 3 upgrade u wanted for some time and then playing vs other people who are in the middle of grinding for their own deck. That gave me so much statisfaction. But now queuing up for a ranked just to go vs another lvl 120 deck just doesnt do it for me and takes out alot of momentum trieing to upgrade my own deck.

So hopefully they come up with a decision where we going with this, or what are their plans on improveing/modifing the current system.

Edited by Marco3104
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This is funny, nah, lets have nothing for free, not even BFP, then we can grind for nothing instead, it is so much fun to grind. (/ranting...)

Actually, I have an offer for you, I can help with your grinding efforts by taking 50% of everything you "earn" then it will take even longer for you to get where you actually want to be, I would be really glad to help here, really-really glad...then once you have collected all cards and leave the game, please send me everything you own and I can distribute it to lesser fortunate Skylords.

// Ponni

Edited by Ponni
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3 hours ago, chickennoodler said:

How about lvl 120 pvp decks stay and you guys stop telling us what's good for us.

 

Seriously wtf.

How about learning to discuss and talk with other people instead of thinking that only your point of view is correct ?

It's "Suggestions" section so this is the place to propose changes for the game and for talking about it.

 

Edited by malldi
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I am against removing. To get a deck like that, you would need to farm for hundreds of hours. Maybe you can argue about reducing the upgrade level to T2, as most cards will still stay viable, while also giving a higher motivation for grind. Or a checkbox for the queue, allow free PvP Decks or not, kind of like optional Crossplay.

But asking for removing, I am sorry. There was once a time where you could spend 1000 hours in games like these, WoW etc. But for me, that time is over, I don't want to be a level 1 thug for hundreds of hours, until I can be a mafia boss lvl 30 with a Mountaineer lvl 3. I still have to work, playing all the other games on my pile of shame, and I think that many players have developed some kind of aversion against mandatory grind.

Edited by OuhYesPlease
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54 minutes ago, OuhYesPlease said:

I am against removing. To get a deck like that, you would need to farm for hundreds of hours. Maybe you can argue about reducing the upgrade level to T2, as most cards will still stay viable, while also giving a higher motivation for grind. Or a checkbox for the queue, allow free PvP Decks or not, kind of like optional Crossplay.

But asking for removing, I am sorry. There was once a time where you could spend 1000 hours in games like these, WoW etc. But for me, that time is over, I don't want to be a level 1 thug for hundreds of hours, until I can be a mafia boss lvl 30 with a Mountaineer lvl 3. I still have to work, playing all the other games on my pile of shame, and I think that many players have developed some kind of aversion against mandatory grind.

Removing it completly maybe isn't the right choice, but leaving it as it is now is not good aswell in my opinion.

IMO the problem is that people who are PvE-oriented are completly fine with that change because they get free PvP decks to "have fun" from time to time without having to spend BFP to make them (so they can spend BFP for their PvE decks). But on the other hand people who prefer playing PvP (and collecting PvP decks) feel bad about that change cause they only need to spend BFP to buy few cards just to personalize these decks a little bit, but tbh you don't even need to change them at all. Why is the diffrence so big? I mean why do you have to make PvE deck from scratch, as you said "spending hundreds of hours" to make it and then in case of PvP decks you literally get everything complete and ready?

I think it's not a bad idea to make separate queue for people who want to practice PvP using these decks or just for people who don't want to spend BFP for PvP decks but they want to play PvP from time to time.
Then if you are more into PvP  - you have to build your own deck from scratch to play in ranked games. ELO system will guarantee that people with worse decks/skill will play together on lower ranks and people with better decks/skills will play together on higher ranks, that's how it used to be years ago and that's how it is in most card games.

 

Edited by malldi
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Im absolutely sure for players who enjoy competitive modes -  PvP or speedrun PvE - grinding is most annoying part, absolutely horrible and needless part of the game!
I dont see right now any possible option for speedrunners, but for PvP probably it would be enough to give free decks only in ranked mode.

Edited by Loriens
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It would be nice if the original post (or someone) could compile a list of suggested changes plus their possible down and upsides.

This is not an official statement, but thus far the option to create "Free PvP" PvP matches or "Collection" PvP matches sounds like the best compromise (assuming each mode has a healthy amount of players). That way players who want to play with maxed out decks can do so against other players with maxed out decks, and players who wanna build up their deck can do so and play against other players who also do the same. 

 

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Theres no Motivation for me to playing Skylordfs Reborn aslong there are free Lv120 PVP Decks. The Only Thing on Battleforge is the Fun with Collecting Cards, Lvling the Decks up and mess with other Players in PVP Matches. This is Battleforge. But you make PvE Useless for me and this is the reason why i dont have any fun or motivation to playing this version of Battleforge. Please remove this or you will loose the Playerbase faster as we all expect. Battleforge lives with the Combo of PVE and PVP. Thats why it was unique...

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37 minutes ago, Ladadoos said:

It would be nice if the original post (or someone) could compile a list of suggested changes plus their possible down and upsides.

This is not an official statement, but thus far the option to create "Free PvP" PvP matches or "Collection" PvP matches sounds like the best compromise (assuming each mode has a healthy amount of players). That way players who want to play with maxed out decks can do so against other players with maxed out decks, and players who wanna build up their deck can do so and play against other players who also do the same. 

 

Collection - Regular mode, Lended decks - Ranked mode, isnt it?

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1 hour ago, Ladadoos said:

It would be nice if the original post (or someone) could compile a list of suggested changes plus their possible down and upsides.

This is not an official statement, but thus far the option to create "Free PvP" PvP matches or "Collection" PvP matches sounds like the best compromise (assuming each mode has a healthy amount of players). That way players who want to play with maxed out decks can do so against other players with maxed out decks, and players who wanna build up their deck can do so and play against other players who also do the same. 

 

Hi Ladadoos, first at all thanks for replying.

Here are some bulletpoints which were mentioned in this post:

- Delay providing LVL 120 decks for a month or two 

- make a seperate sparring/ranked mode for premade decks (only if the playerbase allows it) or make it only for sparring mode

- put the decks behind a fee to rent them, so you still need to grind to use them (maybe between 500-1000BFP)

- change selecting premade decks and distribute them random, people can still play with lvl 120 decks in pvp but are forced a little bit to grind for the color they want to play

- the premade LVL 120 decks shouldnt be able to be changed, by that i mean to remove some cards from the decks and add the ones you want to play. the premade decks should stay fixed

- maybe put the premade decks behind achievements, for example play only nature cards in pve for couple of games and you will get the pure nature lvl 120 premade deck for a week

- maybe make renting a lvl 120 decks only once per deck

- reduce card upgrades of the deck to tier2 upgrades

Thank you in advance!

Edited by Japanda
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I agree with the idea to remove the 120 PvP decks 100%. There definitely are heavily PvP-focused players, but the grind created a natural need for them to mix in with the PvE players. It strengthened the community that everyone had to share the same struggle. I also agree with the psychological reasoning that having the end result of the grind - that is at least in my case a 120 PvP deck - readily available from the start diminishes the motivation to play. When I learned of the free PvP decks I felt a rush of disappointment. There was a certain thrill about playing the Juggernaut for the first time, that is now basically non-existent. It may promote competitive PvP in the early days, but in the end the fully upgraded decks do nothing but diminish the perceived value of your playing time.

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I agree that the lvl120 Decks should be removed. I'm completely hesitant to even try them because it would lead to a decrease in perceived value of my personal playing time. I guess they made sense as a "release instrument" to make high quality pvp possible in the beginning but in the long term I think these decks have a negative influence on the "natural develeopment" of market place and ranked games.

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3 hours ago, malldi said:

I mean why do you have to make PvE deck from scratch, as you said "spending hundreds of hours" to make it and then in case of PvP decks you literally get everything complete and ready?

PvP is simply more frustrating for me, as I don't want to lose against someone who simply had more luck drawing cards, or grinds like crazy. Because you trade blows, every card that counts as a weaker blow, is a handicap. In PvE the motivation is different, you can do maps with a half decent deck and the right strategy, only if you are into speed runnning, you really need the best of the best.

With free decks, I can tell friends "Hey you want to play some PvP?" and we have enough variety and balanced decks. Without it, we would have to craft cheap decks and balance on our own. Or tell them to invest hundreds of hours before we can play. The PvP is fun on it's own, no need to lock people out with card collecting, otherwise I would rather play AoE2/WC3/SC2 etc. with zero grind and balanced races. 

Edited by OuhYesPlease
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4 hours ago, Ladadoos said:

This is not an official statement, but thus far the option to create "Free PvP" PvP matches or "Collection" PvP matches sounds like the best compromise (assuming each mode has a healthy amount of players). That way players who want to play with maxed out decks can do so against other players with maxed out decks, and players who wanna build up their deck can do so and play against other players who also do the same. 

If this is an option, imo it should only be an option for the first month or two. After that real PvP players will have deck lvl 120 in any case and they'd have no reason to queue against people using the free decks. The players using free decks at that point would be new players, who are behind.

But seems like a good addition for the first few months, to add a checkbox to sparring (like with rpve map of the month) that says "forbid free pvp decks"

Edited by Eirias
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Please keep the free PvP decks, those are 100% Hype for the game and will make it more accessible competing with modern games, its great 

The statement: heavy PvP players won't grind is invalid. 

Especially players of skill will notice missing cards in the free decks, they'll need to be farmed and swapped in. Also any special strategy would need swapping farmed cards. For example two different Second Orb options or other strats, or even 3v3 deck choice, etc

 

 

 

Edited by xs0ulLess
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3 hours ago, xs0ulLess said:

Please keep the free PvP decks, those are 100% Hype for the game and will make it more accessible competing with modern games, its great 

The statement: heavy PvP players won't grind is invalid. 

Especially players of skill will notice missing cards in the free decks, they'll need to be farmed and swapped in. Also any special strategy would need swapping farmed cards. For example two different Second Orb options or other strats, or even 3v3 deck choice, etc

 

 

 

Agreed. Also, many people say "they take away a part of the game, i.e. grinding for a PvP deck", but imo it's the opposite, they open a new part of the game for me.

The thing is, that I do not have that much time to play because of family and work. But with the free PvP decks I can still play some PvP when I have the time and, at least in theory, compete with everyone. If I had to build a PvP deck from scratch, I would already have a disadvantage, because I wasn't able to play over the weekend. This would make it, that even with perfect gameplay I would start with a disadvantage from having worse cards/upgrades. This would snowball over the months to come and I would virtually be locked out of PvP until I have a competitive 120 deck, which might take months. In the meantime I would have to grind BG9 for months, if I wanted to get into PvP as quickly as possible, which would get boring and repetitive very quickly, making me lose interest in this project.

Long story short, if you want to grind - go for it, but don't force everyone to do it, since it makes people have to do "shores" in order to even play the game. If I wanted to grind 24/7 I would play World of Warcraft or smthng.

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I think the decision to introduce these lvl 120 decks was awesome. It allows actual PvP matches right from the start and gives me an option of introducing new players into PvP immediately without farming hours of rPvE. In order to build up a solid PvP playerbase over time we need immediate access to the actual gamemode, which is built around U3 cards. Most PvP games are played around lvl 120 decks, the meta got built and balanced around it. 

I do understand, that some players are interested in grinding for PvP decks in order to have some fun games with more random interactions, but for a competitive realm, which ranked PvP is supposed to be, games should be decided by decisionmaking & micro mangement rather than upgrade differences.

I support the option of opening up a sparring section for "only grinded decks" though, so players can easily set up games without lvl 120 decks. The issue with different ranked ques is the playerbase atm. Once there is a large playerbase to sustain such different modes you could go for grind based ques and also different modes like tome PvP for example. But dividing our current playerbase would lead to long que times, worse matchmaking and therefore a worse experience. 

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I am a bit on the fence on this one - on one hand i really like to see the barrier of entry into pvp being lowered and the playingfiled being evened out. Without free decks we are talking about 2kbfp+ even for the cheapest viable decks and that's an investment new players likely just don't want to make. First they need to inform themselves about what they actually need for a pvp deck and then they might end up not liking their faction and switching to another faction or maybe they don't enjoy pvp at all. With the free decks you get a viable high elo deck build to just try out factions with and get into pvp. That's a great change in my book!

At the same time tho, there is only little to change in those decks and i want to swap out maybe just 4-5 cards to customize the deck in the long run. Most of these are not costly either and if i rly wanted to i could get the cards instantly right now and would just need to grind me some gold for upgrades (takes maybe half a day for what i need). For any other cards in the free decks there is 0 incentives to actually get the card and upgrade it anymore. This IS an issue if you enjoy collecting the cards and wanna feel good having made your way to a 120 deck.

I am not sure what can be done (if anything) to satisfy both camps here. perhaps the best tradeoff would be to have the cards rented for a small fee, such that it does not "feel" like you own them and gives you some motivation to get them. Maybe have some visual indication next to the deck name to show that it contains free cards to create more of a way to show other players you actually own the entire deck. Not sure how well that would work in practice tho, just throwing this out there.

It might also be possible to have players only pay a rent/fee if they whish to combine the premade decks with their own cards for customization.


Having seperate pools in sparring i'm not the biggest fan of. This would create a new barrier of entry again as new players just won't join matches where only cards from the collection are allowed. Might also make more experienced players avoid lobbies with free cards as this is likely indicative of a lower skill level lobby (even if it might contain experienced players).

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I totally agree with @LagOps. Battleforge was a mix of card game and RTS game and that made this game unique. When you give everyone permanent access to top tier decks then you remove very important aspect of this game (even if it only affects PvP decks).
In case of PvP you basically treat cards not like a cards, but like a diffrent way to visualize troops, buildings and spells and treat collecting as something completly necessary that has to be done to enjoy PvP - I completly disagree with that.
What is the difference between Skylords Reborn in current state and other RTS games in terms of PvP then? For me the difference between Battleforge and other RTSes was that you had to earn your deck and upgrade it to become better and better. And that was the only difference I noticed, but it was the most important difference for me!

Someone on discord said that these free PvP decks were made because of lack of people intrested in PvP, but don't you think that it was caused by Beta? People knew that there will be hard reset after Beta is over, so less people were playing the game. Maybe consider removing the decks for 1-2 months and if the playerbase will grow then I don't think there will be a problem with PvP queues even without free PvP decks (like it was in Battleforge), on the other hand if the playerbase won't be big enough, then reintroduce them to the game.

 

Edited by malldi
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