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Remove lending LVL120 PVP decks


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I'd invert this. In Ranked, it should be skill that decides where you end up on the leaderboard. Not capacity for grinding. And the reality is that if you fight with a non-optimized deck vs an optimiz

Agreed. Also, many people say "they take away a part of the game, i.e. grinding for a PvP deck", but imo it's the opposite, they open a new part of the game for me. The thing is, that I do not ha

I mean, you can still grind? But now you can also play (2) decks while you wait And so you are not at a disadvantage vs someone just because you didn't grind enough, and newcomers can get direct

I agree. Getting two lvl 120 decks every week is just horrible. Its like getting a new game and instandly getting everything u need though a cheat code. The least thing they can do is to ban the decks from ranked. This mechanic destroys the game for me. Iam not up do date with everything they said untill now, but didnt they say that they will realease the game just as it was on the day the ea servers went down? I mean i have no motivation to grind now. No fun

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can you post link to your post so we can get more attention

28 minutes ago, jackbro said:

Made a post about this earlier today, definitely agree this takes away a large portion of why I used to play. Even the original post about the premade decks suggested using them in only ranked play, not unranked as well.

can you post link to your post so we can get more attention

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It depends on what you consider the bigger issue. PvP being virtually locked for you until you have upgraded cards (especially true if you join later down the line) and can even begin to compete on a raw power level? Or the economical impact of providing a set of cards for free and undermining of the collection aspect?

You also have to consider that originally all these things were baked into the monetization model. Want more charges? Easiest way was to pay up. That means that wanting to be more competitive in PvP was an incentive to spend money. That's not the case anymore, you can't just buy progress. So they have to somehow try to dissect these methods out of the game design.  

On 10/27/2020 at 10:28 PM, Ladadoos said:

We do realize that there are some players who want to still gather cards and play PvP. That is one of the reasons why we didn't give PvP players all cards. Also I believe there are many more PvP players who want to play PvP (so they need upgraded cards) than there are players who also want to collect the cards, so looking at the bigger picture this feature is beneficial for the community and the PvP gamemode. This feature still allows you to collect cards, and you are not forced to use this feature. These PvP decks are only usable in PvP (ranked and unranked), but not usable in PvE.

This is the official statement regarding these decks. In short, they think long-term the free decks will keep the PvP community healthier.

The opportunity cost is effectively eliminating the need to chase after a lot of cards for PvP players and making the use of 120 decks mandatory if you want to be competitive power-wise.

Maybe they could've waited a month to release the 120 decks to give everyone the chaotic start-up times, while still offering latecomers a faster start. Making the cards U2 would've been an option as well. Or having a fee to rent the decks.

Personally, I think the collectible part is essential to the game, it's what it was entirely built around. So that's a pretty big intrusion.

 

Also very unfortunate that not all opinions could be considered because a lot of people didn't involve themselves in conversations like this before release as they waited. Maybe if enough people speak up against the 120 decks they change something? The original thread was mostly positive about it. I have my doubts that they would remove it entirely though.

Edited by Cocofang
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26 minutes ago, Mateiael said:

I agree, they should remove them, grinding for the decks was actually fun.

I mean, you can still grind? But now you can also play (2) decks while you wait :)

And so you are not at a disadvantage vs someone just because you didn't grind enough, and newcomers can get directly into PvP without having to grind their way around.

There are still many cards missing that can't capture every possible deck combo; I probably play 3-5 pvp decks every day, and many times I change out another 4-5 cards each deck depending on how I'm feeling :)

The free decks give dedicated pvp players access to pvp with no barrier except if they want certain tech cards. Anyone interested in grinding for pve must still use the regular, unupgraded cards.

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I mean, you can still grind? But now you can also play (2) decks while you wait

That's a disingenuous point. Yeah, you CAN still grind. But the 120 decks are free and people use them. So if you decide against is, you are massively behind. Every time you face someone with the free U3 cards you must fight an uphill battle that the opponent didn't earn. That argument also ignores the psychological aspect. How bad it feels to work towards something when it's essentially worthless because it's already provided for free. It distorts the sense of value. Which is obviously something that drew some people towards this game.

7 minutes ago, Eirias said:

And so you are not at a disadvantage vs someone just because you didn't grind enough, and newcomers can get directly into PvP without having to grind their way around.

There are still many cards missing that can't capture every possible deck combo; I probably play 3-5 pvp decks every day, and many times I change out another 4-5 cards each deck depending on how I'm feeling :)

The free decks give dedicated pvp players access to pvp with no barrier except if they want certain tech cards. Anyone interested in grinding for pve must still use the regular, unupgraded cards.

An advantage is not necessary when everyone starts from 0. It just removes the start-up phase entirely. Now, when the game has already been running for a month or two it's a different story. Someone joining at that point or later would need a bit of a helping hand to get into PvP.

Also, how big does the advantage have to be? The current implementation goes for straight up perfect U3 cards. Is that necessary? If the cards were U2 then U3 versions that you own and can use in PvP would hold more value as they can only be accessed by investing resources.

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8 minutes ago, Cocofang said:

Also, how big does the advantage have to be? The current implementation goes for straight up perfect U3 cards. Is that necessary? If the cards were U2 then U3 versions that you own and can use in PvP would hold more value as they can only be accessed by investing resources.

Having U2 upgrades instead on these decks, while still giving players something to grind and look forward to is a great idea. I'd still like a mode with no pre-made decks at all, but this could still accomplish the things they wanted to do with the idea. A good player with U1/U2 will still outplay and win against a newer player will all U3.

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i dont like the free pvp deck aspect, kinda makes PVE pointless as you're only there to grind for a good pvp deck, removes the fun out of it if i earn everything from the get go. also as soon as a meta is discovered its just gonna be a bunch of people with the same deck smacking each other to no end in sight

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10 minutes ago, Cocofang said:

That's a disingenuous point. Yeah, you CAN still grind. But the 120 decks are free and people use them. So if you decide against is, you are massively behind.

And how much worse is it when you don't have a choice about being behind? If there were no free PvP decks, I bet NONE of the top PvP players would have played PvP today. They would have got started on PvE grinding or possibly just completely quit, like so many did in the beta testing phase.

11 minutes ago, Cocofang said:

How bad it feels to work towards something when it's essentially worthless because it's already provided for free.

Why are you working for a PvP deck? Do you play exclusively play PvP, and if you do, what is your tag? I have never seen a Cocofang in any of my PvP games.
If you are not exclusively a PvP player, then work for a PvE deck. PvP is meant to be played with a full level 120 deck. Playing without the proper cards is like playing chess without all the pieces. Yes a better player will still win against a worse player if the skill gap is wide enough, but it's just more interesting to play against an even opponent with the proper pieces. Opening strategies and endgame considerations are completely overturned without the right balance of chess pieces, and it is the same in battleforge.

Work for a full 120 PvE deck, and accept that PvP is a different game mode :)

15 minutes ago, Cocofang said:

The current implementation goes for straight up perfect U3 cards. Is that necessary?

Yes. I was one of the most vocal adversaries of upgraded PvP cards in the beginning, before the game was released. In the alpha and beta testing stages, I have been convinced that I looked at Battleforge through rose-tinted glass. Even U2 to U3 is a big difference, especially on all 20 cards. 

8 minutes ago, jackbro said:

A good player with U1/U2 will still outplay and win against a newer player will all U3.

A good player can beat a newer player using just the tutorial deck :). But a good player will NOT beat a similarly-skilled player if one has U1/U2 and the other has all U3.
I might go so far as to say that at the top level, the player with U3 forsaken will beat the player with U2 forsaken at least 80% of the time? @RadicalX perhaps you can provide a better estimate on that?
The dedicated PvP playerbase is quite small, so it's not like a good player will beat a ton of beginners with his weak deck, and have everything upgraded by the time he faces someone of a similar skill level. Maybe that worked in the old days, but not anymore....

Additionally, anyone who wants to climb the ranked ladder without premade decks is forced to play lost souls, because souls is cheap enough to build quickly, beats the other cheap deck (fire nature), and doesn't have any losing matchups because no one will have the super rare pure fire cards yet.

9 minutes ago, ash1132 said:

kinda makes PVE pointless as you're only there to grind for a good pvp deck,

If you don't want to grind PvE, then don't haha. That's the point. Why be forced to do something you don't want to do? If you like grinding, grind for a perfect speedrunner deck. But if you are only playing PvE to get to PvP...why not just skip directly to the mode you like :)

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5 minutes ago, Eirias said:

Why are you working for a PvP deck? Do you play exclusively play PvP, and if you do, what is your tag? I have never seen a Cocofang in any of my PvP games.
If you are not exclusively a PvP player, then work for a PvE deck. PvP is meant to be played with a full level 120 deck. Playing without the proper cards is like playing chess without all the pieces. Yes a better player will still win against a worse player if the skill gap is wide enough, but it's just more interesting to play against an even opponent with the proper pieces. Opening strategies and endgame considerations are completely overturned without the right balance of chess pieces, and it is the same in battleforge.

Work for a full 120 PvE deck, and accept that PvP is a different game mode :)

Who are you to say how someone should or shouldn't play a video game the way they want to. If seemingly the majority of players enjoyed the grind of PvE to build a stronger PvP deck and the process of building that deck to it's full potential, why should they accept this change? 

12 minutes ago, Eirias said:

Additionally, anyone who wants to climb the ranked ladder without premade decks is forced to play lost souls, because souls is cheap enough to build quickly, beats the other cheap deck (fire nature), and doesn't have any losing matchups because no one will have the super rare pure fire cards yet.

Why not keep the premade decks to Ranked play only if it's so important to level the playing field? Or push this premade deck release to a later date to give people time to build up their collection.

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And how much worse is it when you don't have a choice about being behind? If there were no free PvP decks, I bet NONE of the top PvP players would have played PvP today. They would have got started on PvE grinding or possibly just completely quit, like so many did in the beta testing phase.

Don't argue with the other extreme. I am not arguing against free PvP decks. I am saying that the current implementation completely ignores people that enjoy the "collecting and slowly building up a PvP deck" part of the game. There is barely any compromise, the free 120 decks swing very heavily away from their position while a compromise and adjustment is very much possible.

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Why are you working for a PvP deck? Do you play exclusively play PvP, and if you do, what is your tag? I have never seen a Cocofang in any of my PvP games.
If you are not exclusively a PvP player, then work for a PvE deck. PvP is meant to be played with a full level 120 deck. Playing without the proper cards is like playing chess without all the pieces. Yes a better player will still win against a worse player if the skill gap is wide enough, but it's just more interesting to play against an even opponent with the proper pieces. Opening strategies and endgame considerations are completely overturned without the right balance of chess pieces, and it is the same in battleforge.

Work for a full 120 PvE deck, and accept that PvP is a different game mode

I am a pure PvE player but I understand where the PvP players that are against the current free 120 PvP deck implementation are coming from. Do you? They are not getting a good deal and something they were looking forward to is diminished heavily while better compromises would be possible.

You are mostly arguing from a "no free decks at all VS the current implementation" point of view. Why? Adjustments can be made. The current system shouldn't be set in stone. It would be hubris to assume that the things right now, on day 1 of exposing the project to a bigger player base, are as good as they can be.

Maybe U3 is not necessary? Maybe full charges are too much? Maybe the amount of decks is too big? Maybe there are too many different cards? Maybe access to the decks needs some sort of boundary like a fee? Maybe the decks should be implemented at a later date, like a month from now? Maybe the free decks should be exclusive to certain PvP modes? There are plenty of ways to tweak it.

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But if you are only playing PvE to get to PvP...why not just skip directly to the mode you like

It seems that the misunderstanding and disconnect here is that the "just skip directly" part is what people take issue with.

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2 minutes ago, jackbro said:

If seemingly the majority of players enjoyed the grind of PvE

I don't understand? If a player enjoys the grind, then they should grind. If they don't enjoy the grind, they should skip it?

What does the reward of the grind have to do with whether you enjoy it or not?

 

How would you feel if you weren't allowed to play campaign mode until you won a bunch of PvP games? It is a senseless restriction imo.

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21 minutes ago, Eirias said:

What does the reward of the grind have to do with whether you enjoy it or not?

Please try to put yourself into a perspective where reward and grind are connected. Understanding the opposing point of an argument is essential for a healthy discussion and resolution.

Precisely what you are wondering here is a good portion of what this is about.

Edited by Cocofang
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2 minutes ago, Eirias said:

I don't understand? If a player enjoys the grind, then they should grind. If they don't enjoy the grind, they should skip it?

What does the reward of the grind have to do with whether you enjoy it or not?

It has nothing to do with the fact that the grind is PvE based, it is the process of grinding to achieve higher deck score, which is rewarding. Imagine playing basketball 4 hours a day to improve your game and your goal is to win a state championship, the reward justifies and defines the grind and why it was rewarding to the individual. 

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10 minutes ago, Cocofang said:

You are mostly arguing from a "no free decks at all VS the current implementation" point of view. Why? Adjustments can be made. The current system shouldn't be set in stone. It would be hubris to assume that the things right now, on day 1 of exposing the project to a bigger player base, are as good as they can be.

Yes, because this thread is titled "Remove lending LVL120 PVP decks"
I am fine with alternations such as requiring you to pay a fee to rent them (when I first suggested this, I wanted them to be random each week but you can also rent a chosen one by paying BFP), but I need to defend their existence.

From a statistics standpoint, there were over 600 PvP games played today iirc, so this system definitely encouraged new players to try PvP. The advantage of this system will become especially apparent in the future, once new players come and they want to compete with people who can have level 120 decks naturally, while in a month this topic will be irrelevant to the people who want to build a deck from scratch.

1 minute ago, jackbro said:

It has nothing to do with the fact that the grind is PvE based, it is the process of grinding to achieve higher deck score, which is rewarding.

But why do you care if the higher deck score is PvP vs PvE? If you want to grind just to see upgrades go up, wouldn't a better metric be to find all cards U3? It just seems like grinding PvE for a PvP deck is so arbitrary--meanwhile, level 120 PvP decks are a prerequisite to play PvP.

5 minutes ago, Cocofang said:

Please try to put yourself into a perspective where reward and grind are connected. If you truly cannot understand that point of view, maybe you should sit this issue out. That's a good portion of what this is about.

Yes, I can mentally understand wanting to grind for a certain reward, but why does it have to be PvP decks--since as you've already said, you are exclusively a PvE player?

What if I liked grinding PvP matches, and I wanted the reward of being in the top 20 ranked ladder to be the ability to play rPvE? You would probably tell me to leave your PvE game mode alone, rather than prevent you from playing rPvE just because you have no interest in trying to rank in the top 20?

 

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40 minutes ago, Eirias said:

From a statistics standpoint, there were over 600 PvP games played today iirc, so this system definitely encouraged new players to try PvP. The advantage of this system will become especially apparent in the future, once new players come and they want to compete with people who can have level 120 decks naturally, while in a month this topic will be irrelevant to the people who want to build a deck from scratch.

Yeah, so the 120 decks could be pushed back a month to give the people that held off on playing until now for that reason a nice welcome and still enable the help long-term.

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Yes, I can mentally understand wanting to grind for a certain reward, but why does it have to be PvP decks--since as you've already said, you are exclusively a PvE player?

What if I liked grinding PvP matches, and I wanted the reward of being in the top 20 ranked ladder to be the ability to play rPvE? You would probably tell me to leave your PvE game mode alone, rather than prevent you from playing rPvE just because you have no interest in trying to rank in the top 20?

Are you saying that playing exclusively PvP and unlocking everything you want that way is impossible or unfeasible without this iteration of the free PvP decks? Why is PvE constantly getting brought up? What am I missing here? Isn't the current progression system agnostic to PvP and PvE?

I am assuming you mean a new player would have to lose his way into the PvP mode, which would be a bad experience and turn people off. That is true but is the current iteration the best solution? Is this extent of the "crutch" necessary?

I too am of the opinion that a more accessible entry level to PvP is good for the long term health of the mode. But I am questioning whether this exact iteration is ideal and if the game needs it right now when everyone just started from scratch anyway.

Edited by Cocofang
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Are you guys aware that the "premade decks" actually was part of the original game and "everyone liked that"...

EDIT: A better idea would be to do it like they did it for the first release, they paired premades with premades and selfmade with selfmade :)

they were ofc. called different things back then but i am sure you guys get the point?!

Edited by ATRmayo
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33 minutes ago, Cocofang said:

Are you saying that playing exclusively PvP and unlocking everything you want that way is impossible or unfeasible without this iteration of the free PvP decks?

Yes, because "true PvP" requires a proper deck. So if a player wants to only experience true PvP--without grinding PvE or playing weird pvp games where you don't have half the cards--that player must use the premade decks until they get their own.

39 minutes ago, Cocofang said:

Isn't the current progression system agnostic to PvP and PvE?

Isn't that the whole debate? There are PvP cards I would like to have (substitutions I wanted today: green disenchant, sunderer, vileblood, mo, shadow insect) which I need to grind for, but the PvP decks are still playable right now.

But other players feel that since upgrading PvP cards isn't necessary, they lose something.

When the open beta stress test launched, it was probably at least a week before I played my first PvP game. First, I needed some basic cards (so someone can't just spam frost mages and win), and also because no one else wanted to play with weird cards. I uploaded my first real PvP game in the open stress test almost 2 months after the initial release (not sure when I played it), and its still obvious that we are both missing cards, making a weird game: 

 

The earliest replay I still have is from the OST is September 30, 2018--again, almost a month after OST's initial release. That game is a 2v2 with a still strange deck.

1 hour ago, Cocofang said:

Why is PvE constantly getting brought up?

My point is that true PvP is locked behind a "grindwall" without level 120 decks. I am trying to make an analogy of how players would feel if PvE was locked behind some sort of grindwall.

Yes, speedrunners are affected, but they can always go to the test server if they really want to speedrun right now: all they need are their mates, who they communicate with anyway (besides this, there is no possible solution for speedrunners that doesn't affect PvE). And there is no way to play PvP on the testserver without sending a PM to a friend, because everyone else queues in the regular server. For my own PvP enjoyment, I'd rather if all the PvP players just moved to the test server and then PvP effectively died in the real server. But such a split would be very bad for our small community.

 

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7 hours ago, Eirias said:

Yes, because this thread is titled "Remove lending LVL120 PVP decks"
I am fine with alternations such as requiring you to pay a fee to rent them (when I first suggested this, I wanted them to be random each week but you can also rent a chosen one by paying BFP), but I need to defend their existence.

From a statistics standpoint, there were over 600 PvP games played today iirc, so this system definitely encouraged new players to try PvP. The advantage of this system will become especially apparent in the future, once new players come and they want to compete with people who can have level 120 decks naturally, while in a month this topic will be irrelevant to the people who want to build a deck from scratch.

But why do you care if the higher deck score is PvP vs PvE? If you want to grind just to see upgrades go up, wouldn't a better metric be to find all cards U3? It just seems like grinding PvE for a PvP deck is so arbitrary--meanwhile, level 120 PvP decks are a prerequisite to play PvP.

Yes, I can mentally understand wanting to grind for a certain reward, but why does it have to be PvP decks--since as you've already said, you are exclusively a PvE player?

What if I liked grinding PvP matches, and I wanted the reward of being in the top 20 ranked ladder to be the ability to play rPvE? You would probably tell me to leave your PvE game mode alone, rather than prevent you from playing rPvE just because you have no interest in trying to rank in the top 20?

 

i know "Remove lending LVL120 PVP decks" was a harsh phrasing, i read through all responses and think there should be some kind of limitation to those LVL120 PVP decks,

- maybe delay them a month or two 

- or maybe make a seperate sparring/ranked mode for premade decks

- or put the decks behind a fee to rent them, so you still need to grind to use them

- or remove selecting premade decks and distribute them random 

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