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MrXLink

Current Proposal: Tokens & Gold

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Greetings, Skylords!

Welcome to a brand new update on future game proposals! Many of you have already vaguely heard of this concept, since it has been leaked during the BFReborn Livestream #1 (http://forum.bfreborn.com/index.php?/topic/1196-past-broadcast-05092015/), but here will be some details on the matter to clarify what exactly has been going on regarding tokens, gold, and card upgrades. Mind that these are proposals, nothing is definite yet, and changes may still take place. This thread is meant to give you a rough idea of the direction future development will be heading in. Also note that no token or gold values have been set yet.

Something quite important is proposed to be changed in Skylords Reborn. As many of you know, BattleForge had a grand total of 5 currencies: BFP, Gold, Battle Tokens, Victory Tokens, and Honour Tokens. BFP was used to buy cards and boosters, gold to place auctions, send mails, and apply upgrades to cards, and all tokens were used to purchase card upgrades. Tokens have always been extremely confusing; there has never really been a clear explanation of when they are obtained exactly, and they proved to only be a bother as shortages of one specific token type prevented the upgrading of cards. This would force people to play (and win!) unnecessary amounts of matches in order to actually get what they want. Tokens were also monetised in countries such as Germany and the Czech Republic, in order to get more revenue out of the game.

In Skylords Reborn, this will no longer be an issue. Tokens will no longer be used in the game. That's right, we are attempting to get rid of the card upgrade currency. Since we will not be monetising any part of the game, and since BFP will now be obtainable in special ways through the daily quest system (like vanilla tokens), tokens are now considered to be excess baggage and more of a curse than a blessing. This is why it's been decided to no longer be used to upgrade your cards. Mind you: the level requirement for upgrading cards will still be a thing, as it is a good way to both prevent multi-accounting and increase the lifetime of the average user. 

You may be wondering, that if players don't use tokens, what will be used to pay for card upgrades? The answer to this is simple: Gold. This will be the answer to another major problem BattleForge had: the massive excess of gold everywhere. Now, it will still be a challenge to siphon out some gold from the collective pool, but it will at least give gold a purpose. In conjunction with our proposed Reward System (http://forum.bfreborn.com/index.php?/topic/1163-current-proposal-rewards/), we will be blowing new life into this currency. The plan is to make gold an untradeable, easily grindable currency, and BFP a limited, hardly grindable currency that can be obtained daily. This has to do with player lifetime and the enjoyability curve of the game. Gold will no longer be tradeable, and it will no longer be possible to add gold as a mail attachment, which will prevent hyperfarming as well as in-game mail gold scams. It will make the currency more valuable and appreciated, too. Just like Direct Trade, in-game mails will only support sending cards and BFP.

Both buying and applying upgrades will be done through gold, so you will still have to pay gold to apply that upgrade you got in your PvE campaign map. Also, the plan is to make changing your in-game avatar (if we get that system to work) cost gold rather than BFP. Gold will still be used as a price to place auctions and send in-game mails, which is a good way to reduce spambots. 

The Element of Conversion and the Element of Creation will be boosting gold output instead of token output, and if possible other bonuses (such as PvE XP) might apply. They will still cost BFP, but their features are widely debatable.

It is important to know that we are currently unable to make UI modifications. We might in the future, but we will require to make it clear that upgrades will cost gold rather than tokens now. During the beta stage of BFReborn, there will most likely be a system in place that is either the final version of buying upgrades for gold (hopefully with UI changes, but as of now that seems like a dark area), or there will be a system in place to exchange gold for tokens using system commands. This will help you get used to the fact that upgrading will be completely gold-based.

To summarise, BFP will be obtained through the Daily Quest and Playtime Reward systems and is used for:

  • Buying boosters
  • Buying cards in the auction hall
  • Buying elements
  • Direct Trade transactions
  • In-game Mail attachments (along with cards)

Gold will be obtained through playing matches and opening chests and is used for:

  • Buying card upgrades
  • Placing auctions in the auction hall
  • Sending an in-game mail (standard 1G fee)
  • Applying card upgrades
  • Changing your in-game avatar

Tokens will be unobtainable and gold will have to be used for its previous functions.

_____________________

Such is the current proposal for tokens and gold. It is also important to know that this system is very solid and the decision has been made after serious thought and consideration; it is unlikely that this system will get a complete overhaul or gets changed dramatically. Feel free to discuss these changes below and ask questions, but remember none of this is absolutely definite, but merely our current proposal. 

Logarius and FlexTerror like this

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I have a question regarding the The Element of Conversion and the Element of Creation will they cost the same amount of BFP as old BF or more/less due to them not giving tokens and just gold (and possible XP) ?

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just hoping you are able to balance the PVP and rPVE part well enough in consideration to the PVE part.

If you can only obtain 'normal' upgrades in the campaign maps i would think that you should increase the amount of gold youd get in PVP and rPVE.

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I have a question regarding the The Element of Conversion and the Element of Creation will they cost the same amount of BFP as old BF or more/less due to them not giving tokens and just gold (and possible XP) ?

Wow, I was wondering SO long to remember the names of these two!

You anwsered my long-term question that I didn't have to ask, thanx

And yes, I would also like to know that

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Wow, I was wondering SO long to remember the names of these two!

You anwsered my long-term question that I didn't have to ask, thanx

And yes, I would also like to know that

I have a question regarding the The Element of Conversion and the Element of Creation will they cost the same amount of BFP as old BF or more/less due to them not giving tokens and just gold (and possible XP) ?

I'm intending on modifying most EA prices for things like that anyway to suit our reward system.

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I'm intending on modifying most EA prices for things like that anyway to suit our reward system.

I see do you know the amount of bfp that they cost before on old BF?

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The upgrade system will be much cleaner and easier to understand, that's for sure.

Basically, one could just play any map (or game mode) and use the gold earned to purchase any of the upgrades, instead of playing specific PvE maps. Being said that, have you thought about overhauling that annoying need/greed, random, assign mechanic as well?

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I am pleased with what I read. It will be easier to understand the system and people won't be forced to play a particular map to get their upgrades.

I see do you know the amount of bfp that they cost before on old BF?

I believe the Elements were 250 BFP each, not sure though.

@MrXLink Thanks for the detailed thread. That being said, I got a small question about the Elements. Will these affect those gold chests in any way ? I don't know why, but I feel like something especial should be done about them.. they were just so boring and didn't feel worth the time to get them.

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This seem like a really solid system, much less confusing. I love the changes applied to the game. Basically you are taking a fantastic game and making it fair and balanced. Keep up the good work :)

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For starters good job on your work and getting all proposals in one place. Second, giving the statements above it came to my mind that there will be no more need to play specific maps since you can just buy the upgrade.That said one might simply complete the map once then farm gold on the most farmable one since he can just buy the upgrade instead of winning it. To avoid that may i propose to make the 2nd upgrade highly more expensive that was supposed to be and the 3rd so expensive that would just be better to go and win it in the pve map. I can't talk numbers but i hope you understand the ratio i try to pass. We are all glad that tokens are out but that shoudnt undermine the new upgrade system. 

 

PS : I have no idea why the text is like that 

Edited by RayG

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For starters good job on your work and getting all proposals in one place. Second, giving the statements above it came to my mind that there will be no more need to play specific maps since you can just buy the upgrade.That said one might simply complete the map once then farm gold on the most farmable one since he can just buy the upgrade instead of winning it. To avoid that may i propose to make the 2nd upgrade highly more expensive that was supposed to be and the 3rd so expensive that would just be better to go and win it in the pve map. I can't talk numbers but i hope you understand the ratio i try to pass. We are all glad that tokens are out but that shoudnt undermine the new upgrade system. 

 

PS : I have no idea why the text is like that 

I would assume that's the way it will be, since that's how it was with tokens.

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Regarding gold being untradable, I might be against this specific point since, as you mentioned it will be an easily obtained currency, meaning it will be used in trading of BFP, as it used to be before.

Making gold more valuable will have people willing to buy it, and by that balancing both currencies BFP and Gold is not possible

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im splitted about the idea. To not force us on a spezific map is a good way to go. But gold as the only currency for everything (beside of buying cards) idk. i think i must see that ingame to get a feeling about it. 

About the 2 elements i think they can be removed then. One maked cardupgrades giving tokens and the other doubled the numbers of tokens. If there is just gold needed  we dont need them at all, becouse you was able to sell the cards after a match for gold if you didnt need it even w/o an element.

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Regarding gold being untradable, I might be against this specific point since, as you mentioned it will be an easily obtained currency, meaning it will be used in trading of BFP, as it used to be before.

Making gold more valuable will have people willing to buy it, and by that balancing both currencies BFP and Gold is not possible

I understand your point of view and freedom to trade should be a fundamental aspect of trading. However, a good point to bring up would be that account restricted gold could help combat multi accounting. 

Those that multiaccount with the goals of getting more BFP will be at a gold handicap since gold is no longer transferable. They would be trading possibly more cards(more BFP) for less upgrades. 

This is might force people to reconsider multi accounting, and will therefore reduce it.

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@Ultrakool This is a very good point and maybe should be mentioned in the opening post as well.

 

Overall i really do like the proposal since tokens were more of a reminder to grind rpve (for pvp players), because you had so many honor tokens and no battle tokens at all, than an actual reward system. Tokens were confusing and i also like gold no longer beeing tradable. So many players got scammed during gold trading, there was hardly a day where someone didn't try to trick other players with it. Overall a very solid proposal and i don't think there is anything to add to it.

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First of all I would like to say that I like the proposal to remove tokens, make gold more important and make gold untradable. Thank you for explaining it in detail MrXLink.

For starters good job on your work and getting all proposals in one place. Second, giving the statements above it came to my mind that there will be no more need to play specific maps since you can just buy the upgrade.That said one might simply complete the map once then farm gold on the most farmable one since he can just buy the upgrade instead of winning it. To avoid that may i propose to make the 2nd upgrade highly more expensive that was supposed to be and the 3rd so expensive that would just be better to go and win it in the pve map. I can't talk numbers but i hope you understand the ratio i try to pass. We are all glad that tokens are out but that shoudnt undermine the new upgrade system. 

PS : I have no idea why the text is like that 

The upgrade system will be much cleaner and easier to understand, that's for sure.

Basically, one could just play any map (or game mode) and use the gold earned to purchase any of the upgrades, instead of playing specific PvE maps. Being said that, have you thought about overhauling that annoying need/greed, random, assign mechanic as well?

I think the gold rewards for each PvE map will also need to be rebalanced since gold will become more important. Passage to Darkness used to be the map to gain the most gold while it was a very easy map on expert, in fact the hardest part was getting 12 players together without any disconnects. In my opinion the gold should be rebalanced based on the difficulty and average time it takes to complete the map so that for example Ascension or Blight will let you earn more gold than Passage to Darkness.

One of the causes of the difference in gold rewards between PvE maps was the ability to discard card upgrade rewards in which Ultra rare upgrades would reward a lot more gold than rare upgrades for example. And since some map had a lot Ultra rare upgrades (Passage to Darkness) while other maps would mostly have common upgrades this caused a huge difference between the maps. This could be solved by either redistributing the upgrade rewards or by removing/changing the discard feature.

In the http://forum.bfreborn.com/index.php?/topic/840-upgrades-distribution-tweak/ thread I suggested to change the need/greed, random, assign mechanic so that all players who completed the map would always gain all the (four) upgrade rewards. Another suggestion that was made in that thread is that you always would gain one upgrade of the lootlist of that map that you dont already have. If one of these suggestions would be implemented, I dont think the discard feature would really be needed anymore as you will have a high chance of getting usefull rewards already.

just hoping you are able to balance the PVP and rPVE part well enough in consideration to the PVE part.

If you can only obtain 'normal' upgrades in the campaign maps i would think that you should increase the amount of gold youd get in PVP and rPVE.

I agree that RPvE will need some new rewards when the tokens are removed, if it is possible to add the Amii Edition upgrades to RPvE, that would solve two issues at once. Else I agree that the gold amount could be increased a bit for RPvE. Especially if the discard function of upgrades in normal PvE maps would be removed, RPvE could be made a good source of getting gold in PvE. For PvP, the gold rewards should be increased too so that it will be somewhat equal to the gold rewards by playing (R)PvE (so that PvP players will be able to earn upgrades without being forced to play PvE). 

About the 2 elements i think they can be removed then. One maked cardupgrades giving tokens and the other doubled the numbers of tokens. If there is just gold needed  we dont need them at all, becouse you was able to sell the cards after a match for gold if you didnt need it even w/o an element.

I agree, since the elements would just be a way to earn gold quicker by spending some BFP. So it would actually just be an indirect way to convert BFP into gold. 

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im splitted about the idea. To not force us on a spezific map is a good way to go. But gold as the only currency for everything (beside of buying cards) idk. i think i must see that ingame to get a feeling about it. 

About the 2 elements i think they can be removed then. One maked cardupgrades giving tokens and the other doubled the numbers of tokens. If there is just gold needed  we dont need them at all, becouse you was able to sell the cards after a match for gold if you didnt need it even w/o an element.

Gold is also becoming undtradeable because it is taking the place of tokens, which were never tradeable. This is a way to limit "paying for progress", requiring you to actually play the game in order to get gold and thus upgrade your cards.

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Regarding gold being untradable, I might be against this specific point since, as you mentioned it will be an easily obtained currency, meaning it will be used in trading of BFP, as it used to be before.

Making gold more valuable will have people willing to buy it, and by that balancing both currencies BFP and Gold is not possible

As @DragonOfTime and @Ultrakool already mentioned, since gold will take over the role of tokens, which were never tradable, it will become untradable as well. It will help to combat account boosting and multi-accounting for the simple reason that it's way less lucrative than it used to be.

The upgrade system will be much cleaner and easier to understand, that's for sure.

Basically, one could just play any map (or game mode) and use the gold earned to purchase any of the upgrades, instead of playing specific PvE maps. Being said that, have you thought about overhauling that annoying need/greed, random, assign mechanic as well?

 

For starters good job on your work and getting all proposals in one place. Second, giving the statements above it came to my mind that there will be no more need to play specific maps since you can just buy the upgrade.That said one might simply complete the map once then farm gold on the most farmable one since he can just buy the upgrade instead of winning it. To avoid that may i propose to make the 2nd upgrade highly more expensive that was supposed to be and the 3rd so expensive that would just be better to go and win it in the pve map. I can't talk numbers but i hope you understand the ratio i try to pass. We are all glad that tokens are out but that shoudnt undermine the new upgrade system. 

The biggest problem I have with these statements is that I do not understand what has changed regarding that. Whether it is tokens or gold, you could always just play any map, or one specific one, to gain your tokens and buy your upgrades. Nothing changes in that regard, it's just the fact that it's called "gold" now that changes. This means that the gold rewards and the upgrade prices will be altered in such a way that it would take a lot of farming time to buy upgrades for gold, so that the player might consider completing another PvE map with the loot required instead. That's how the system has always been, I do not intend to change it at all.

I would really need to have a good look at the need/greed/assign system in order to see what the big problem is. If you go for assign you should make sure you have a host that you can trust, and the need/greed system is actually quite a good way of distributing rewards to those who need it. Regardless, I have no idea to what extent it is possible for us to overhaul that system, as it is a lot more complicated than changing tokens into gold, for example. Chances are that this system will persist purely because it's a lot of code that may or may not be able to be possible to be altered.

I am pleased with what I read. It will be easier to understand the system and people won't be forced to play a particular map to get their upgrades.

I believe the Elements were 250 BFP each, not sure though.

@MrXLink Thanks for the detailed thread. That being said, I got a small question about the Elements. Will these affect those gold chests in any way ? I don't know why, but I feel like something especial should be done about them.. they were just so boring and didn't feel worth the time to get them.

I see do you know the amount of bfp that they cost before on old BF?

250 BFP was the price of elements, that is correct. If possible, this price may alter depending on daily rewards.

I actually have no clue whether it is even possible to easily manipulate gold chests, since each chest has a random value of gold assigned to them, varying per chest and per roll. I agree, chests do seem very boring and if we have time and the possibility to edit gold in chests we might just end up boosting them rather than having elements influence them.

 

I agree that RPvE will need some new rewards when the tokens are removed, if it is possible to add the Amii Edition upgrades to RPvE, that would solve two issues at once. Else I agree that the gold amount could be increased a bit for RPvE. Especially if the discard function of upgrades in normal PvE maps would be removed, RPvE could be made a good source of getting gold in PvE. For PvP, the gold rewards should be increased too so that it will be somewhat equal to the gold rewards by playing (R)PvE (so that PvP players will be able to earn upgrades without being forced to play PvE). 

Most of your questions have already been answered above. As for the amii upgrades for RPvE, I once again can only tell you that the RPvE reward system is different from a normal PvE map, and therefore it might be really hard to alter this, if not impossible. If we do end up being able to change it, then I would surely agree with using rPvE for distributing Amii upgrades, of course at a lower rate since they are more easily completed and upgrade levels based on the level of RPvE you play on. But again, this may be way more difficult than it seems to be!

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The biggest problem I have with these statements is that I do not understand what has changed regarding that. Whether it is tokens or gold, you could always just play any map, or one specific one, to gain your tokens and buy your upgrades. Nothing changes in that regard, it's just the fact that it's called "gold" now that changes.

You probably misunderstood me. I only rephrased what you said to make the basic intentions more clear - but I'm all up for this idea.

 

Ross has already thrown in a couple of ideas regarding that awful need/greed/random/assign 'reward system' (and I use the term loosely) :

 

In the http://forum.bfreborn.com/index.php?/topic/840-upgrades-distribution-tweak/ thread I suggested to change the need/greed, random, assign mechanic so that all players who completed the map would always gain all the (four) upgrade rewards. Another suggestion that was made in that thread is that you always would gain one upgrade of the lootlist of that map that you dont already have. If one of these suggestions would be implemented, I dont think the discard feature would really be needed anymore as you will have a high chance of getting usefull rewards already.

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As I never was that engaged in Battleforge, it was really hard for me to get the necessary items to upgrade my cards. I think this will be a huge improvement for the casual gamer.

Pandzia likes this

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I have an idea regarding the gold chests that were in games.. Perhaps you could hide them throughout the map and have them contain bfp or even make them cotain more gold than what they used to?..

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I would really need to have a good look at the need/greed/assign system in order to see what the big problem is. If you go for assign you should make sure you have a host that you can trust, and the need/greed system is actually quite a good way of distributing rewards to those who need it. Regardless, I have no idea to what extent it is possible for us to overhaul that system, as it is a lot more complicated than changing tokens into gold, for example. Chances are that this system will persist purely because it's a lot of code that may or may not be able to be possible to be altered.

Thank you for your answers MrXLink.

I think the biggest problem with the need+greed/assign/random system was that in combination with the small player base you could not always choose with whom (or with which reward distribution system) you would play a map with as your only options would be to join the one existing game of an unknown host for a certain map or create your own game and wait for a very long time to be able to start. So it wasnt an exception that you would join a game from an unknown host (where he choose the assign option) and after completing the map, the host would assign all the possible upgrades to himself (discard the rest) and leaves the group asap. This caused many irritations with the rest of the group of course. And yes, with the mostly nice community we have in Battleforge, this still happened quite often.

A possible solution for this could be that the 'assign' option would only be possible to select by the host when all (or 2/3) of the other players have the host as a friend in-game and else only the need/greed and random options are available. However, a client modification might be needed for something like this, so we will need to hear from the Devs first to know what the server involvement is with this system. For example, does the host client send the chosen option to the server at the start of the game and does the server send it back after completing the map? This would make it possible to override the chosen system with need/greed for example when the other players have not be-friended the host. But if the host client saves the chosen option and uses it after the game to let the host player assign the upgrades and only sends to the server who gets which reward, it will be more difficult. But in this case a possible solution could still be that the server always gives all upgrades to all players who completed the map (if they didnt have the upgrade already) instead of to just one player independent of which distribution system was chosen. This will also speed up getting the upgrades (which I am sure some players would love), therefore I think the upgrades that you already have should not be discarded with this solution as that would speed up getting upgrades even more.

The downside of the first solution I mentioned in this post might be that a host with good intentions cant always select the assign option, so I leave it to the staff to decide if that would be worth it or not. A last possible solution for which no client modification is needed whatsoever could be not to change the upgrade distribution system but to encourage players to report lame hosts who take all the upgrades for themselves and setup a punishment protocol for the Mods to take away for example 10 upgrades from that host.

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