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Range cliffing - standpoint


Rondine

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can you pls use the enter key... its extremely hard to read such awall of text.

he was just saying that the advantage you can gain by cliffing is to high for the risk you take. And yes you can counter everything but if the skill and risks you need take to use a certain strategy is in no comparison to the skill and risks the opponent player needs to take to counter, it is unbalanced. and thats the exact case with cliffing.

obviously im not on the highest pvp level however i followed a lot of discussions about this on the old forum and i think my overall game understandatement is well enough to get the main points of it. The majority of players that took part in that discussions( it was 98% high elo) had the opinion that the risk-reward balance is in no comparison for cliffing.

u allways need to take risks lol... risk its risk u dont know what will happen and u never will be sure to take the risk.. r u saying u need to take bigger risk.. i dont tly think so but ok.. i think u should agree with me cuz maybe i got some more inf then u and i know alot of stuff that can be use to take out cliffdancer.. u can disagree as well everyone got an opinion but again i think its not a thing to cry about its a thing to learn how to counter it.. if u will learn how to counter cliffdancer u will be better player aswell.. u will have much more skills and then u will know what im talking about.. 

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u allways need to take risks lol... risk its risk u dont know what will happen and u never will be sure to take the risk.. r u saying u need to take bigger risk.. i dont tly think so but ok.. i think u should agree with me cuz maybe i got some more inf then u and i know alot of stuff that can be use to take out cliffdancer.. u can disagree as well everyone got an opinion but again i think its not a thing to cry about its a thing to learn how to counter it.. if u will learn how to counter cliffdancer u will be better player aswell.. u will have much more skills and then u will know what im talking about.. 

Apparently you know a lot about how to counter cliffing. A lot of skill is apparently needed and you seem to have it. How about you make some kind of guide now or video later on ( when BFReborn is released) about countering cliffdancers ? This way, everyone knows how to counter firedancers and everyone will be happy. I'm serious about this question.

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Apparently you know a lot about how to counter cliffing. A lot of skill is apparently needed and you seem to have it. How about you make some kind of guide now or video later on ( when BFReborn is released) about countering cliffdancers ? This way, everyone knows how to counter firedancers and everyone will be happy. I'm serious about this question.

I'm pretty sure he is primarily speaking from the perspective of a shad-frost player. They have the one of the easiest times dealing with firedancers. If you remind me, I can make a guide/video explaining how to defend with fire-nat. If you can defend with fire-nat, you can probably defend with any deck except bandits, pure nat, and pure shad. I have no idea how to defend with those. As it is defending with fire-nat is hard (in my experience, only very very good players can do it. It requires fast reactions, proactivity, and in-depth knowledge of the maps and decks). Basically to defend against fire, you need to defend before the fire player attacks. Such a thing is very complicated, and it's obviously self-defeating if you defend and he doesn't attack.So you have to draw a really fine line to provoke an attack while you have options to defend against it--then you must beat the attack and immediately go on the offensive so that he doesn't get enough power to cliff again. It also requires knowing how safe wells are and judging safety vs ambition (map control).

I'm not honestly sure if a real guide can be made on it. Such a defense require so much knowledge and so many subtle tactics that it would probably take a good hour to list out all the ways to defend all the cilffing possibilities on all the real maps (and gl on random-generated ones).

 

I've never liked cliffing because it requires little skill to use, but lots of skill to defend. Nonetheless, I've very rarely felt that I was defenseless against the tactic. Sometimes you need to make concessions to make sure you can defend, but every time I've lost to cliffing I can point out and say, "Yeah, that move right there was stupid. It gave him an opportunity to cliff me. I should have done this instead to take away that option.

I think curse well and/or church of negation + building heals is far more "undefendable" than cliffing. I've never lost a match to fire that I couldn't point out where I went wrong. But I have lost lots of matches to the kind of pure shadow/ lost souls t3 where my only mistake was allowing my opponent to go t3, because the match was over as soon as that happened.Of course, it didn't get realized until 30 minutes when the game is decided by score, which is the most frustrating part.

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Apparently you know a lot about how to counter cliffing. A lot of skill is apparently needed and you seem to have it. How about you make some kind of guide now or video later on ( when BFReborn is released) about countering cliffdancers ? This way, everyone knows how to counter firedancers and everyone will be happy. I'm serious about this question.

if i will have time for that i could do this.. i can give u a guide for any deck cuz i played all of those decks.. pure nat stonkin bandits pure fire vs pure fire pure shadow LS fire frost.. maybe shadow nature not cuz it was too much but all the others are no prob.. will gald to help to all the new ones here and will gald to make the old players be better players.. much better.. we will talk about ur idea dude glad to know that someone think about help for all the players and not only to himself^^

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  • 3 weeks later...

In my eyes cliffing was alwys OP, but i wouldnt like to have it removed completely from the game. My suggestion to balance that Problem is the following: If shooting over walls or cliffs, high ranged units should do only half the damage. This would still leave cliffing as a viable tactic and wouldn't nerf facions who use such tactics too hard, but it would balance it at least so, that it would double the time that u have to counter a cliffing attack before a well goes down.

Alternatively we could think about halfing the range of such units when shooting over walls or cliffs.

greetz Nachtalb

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Imho cliff dancers are part of the game and should be used the way they are intended: as a long-ranged sieging tool. Obviously they're counterable but they are simply overpowered and have to be balanced without removing them from the "must have" pure fire equip. A power cost increase could be an option.

Edited by Navarr
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In my eyes cliffing was alwys OP, but i wouldnt like to have it removed completely from the game. My suggestion to balance that Problem is the following: If shooting over walls or cliffs, high ranged units should do only half the damage. This would still leave cliffing as a viable tactic and wouldn't nerf facions who use such tactics too hard, but it would balance it at least so, that it would double the time that u have to counter a cliffing attack before a well goes down.

Alternatively we could think about halfing the range of such units when shooting over walls or cliffs.

greetz Nachtalb

I agree, lets half the range. it would make pvp much more enjoyable to play. 

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Keep cliffing, delete lajesh. Some weak spot is legit and what make pure fire good and force a certain map control, but be able to cliff every well is a bit abused.

Well that would solve it... :D

Fast and without questions. Any other map ideas to replace Lajesh?

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I agree, lets half the range. it would make pvp much more enjoyable to play. 

He was not suggesting to half the range, he was suggesting to half the damage when shot over cliffs. (which is not a new idea but there are questions about difficulty coding such a thing, most likely too complex to tackle with our team)

If you are instead suggesting to half the range you are either saying you want to always half the range (in my mind it would make firedancers near pointless) or half the range only when shooting over cliffs (again, hard to code and halfing damage is in my opinion a far better suggestion)

 

To those who state that it is beatable, I am never a fan of the game necessitating that another player play far better just to stay even with simple tactics. This leaves the door wide open for tiny mistakes losing them the game (just because you can identify the mistake does not make the loss fair) and taking a RTS away from what it should be - Greater skill should lead to a win, not greater skill leads to potential for even match.

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He was not suggesting to half the range, he was suggesting to half the damage when shot over cliffs. (which is not a new idea but there are questions about difficulty coding such a thing, most likely too complex to tackle with our team)

If you are instead suggesting to half the range you are either saying you want to always half the range (in my mind it would make firedancers near pointless) or half the range only when shooting over cliffs (again, hard to code and halfing damage is in my opinion a far better suggestion)

 

To those who state that it is beatable, I am never a fan of the game necessitating that another player play far better just to stay even with simple tactics. This leaves the door wide open for tiny mistakes losing them the game (just because you can identify the mistake does not make the loss fair) and taking a RTS away from what it should be - Greater skill should lead to a win, not greater skill leads to potential for even match.

Thank you ndclub. And yeah the coding.. :/ halfing the DAMAGE when shooting over cliffs and walls would still be my absolute favourite solution :)

Edited by Nachtalb
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Before you are talking about cliffdancer, think about your knowledge about map controll and mapspots.

Its possible to REACT.

I know that many players flamed ingame about cliffdancers but last but not least it was their fault - wrong taken wells - disadvantage - bad map controll - no presure - wrong counter plays or something else = They played wrong against pure fire but many many many players only see the Firedancer. (Firedancer(70), Banner(50) btw

Have you guys noticed this aspects after you won/lost ? I dont think so !

In this case if anyone has a disadvantage its doesnt matter what the opponent plays. cliffdancer in combination with other units - reaver(LS) - do(NN) spam. Would be a loose anyway because the disadvantage.

 

There are some stupid (rndm-)maps where cliffdancers can really decides matches but those maps are very rare.

i wanna see some youtube replays where a pure fire player only won because of cliffdancers.

 

But at last i dont understand why your talking about balancing.

I think and HOPE that they dont edit cards !

If they would change the stats of the cards that you guys commented in this forum - pvp would die in 2-3 days.

And if they should change some broken cards in pvp it would be Mountaineer to 2x frost ;)

greetz

 

 

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@xHighTech It is true that cliffdancing is avoidable and not that much of an issue in high level play. I entriely agree that it is avoidable and that pure fire is in a relatively fine state right now.

I do however remember very well what it felt like when i wasn't good myself. At lower elo, you just don't have the skill to avoid cliffdancing and the real issue is that the fire player needs less skill to properly execute cliffdancing than the oponent needs to properly counterplay it. When i was in mid-high gold elo, everyone and their mother was playing cliffdancer and it was really frustrating to deal with. In this elo range, players were able to execute cliffing, but not able to counterplay it.

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@xHighTech It is true that cliffdancing is avoidable and not that much of an issue in high level play. I entriely agree that it is avoidable and that pure fire is in a relatively fine state right now.

I do however remember very well what it felt like when i wasn't good myself. At lower elo, you just don't have the skill to avoid cliffdancing and the real issue is that the fire player needs less skill to properly execute cliffdancing than the oponent needs to properly counterplay it. When i was in mid-high gold elo, everyone and their mother was playing cliffdancer and it was really frustrating to deal with. In this elo range, players were able to execute cliffing, but not able to counterplay it.

@LagOps Where will it end if you nerf cards because "you dont have the knowledge/skill to counter them or if you only cant play pvp correctly?"

Frustration also comes up if you loose against reaver spam and Do perm heal. How can that happend? Missplays of myself.

But many people only see the "opponent played op cards" aspect. Thats wrong and i understand that player at a lower elo dont understand the correct system of bf pvp but

I think those people are not in the position the talk about nerfs/buffs

Edited by xHighTech
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well actualy you are right Hightech, there shouldn't be any fast nerfing/buffing of cards, there was a quite nice balance in BaFo PvP and Cliffsdancing isn't that big of an issue, allthough there were some frustrating moments connected to it, but ok, it mostly happens after you do mistakes yourself. But what i would be interested in: What do you (or other high ranked PvPers) think about the predominance of Shadow/Frost in PvP? We had this discussion for years if i remember correctly.. ^^ And concerning some other cards: Is it all in balance as it was? What about cards like Tree Spirits, Aura, Church of Negation? Do you think there are cards where a nerf would be appropriate or should it realy all stay as it was? Realy just interested in your opinion here.

 

And people WILL talk about balancing anyways.. so it is important that guys like you, who have a deeper understanding of PvP Mechanics, share their thoughts and wisdom, to lead such discussions into the right direction.

Edited by Nachtalb
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@xHighTech i was never in favor of nerfing cards because they were too strong at lower elos. I was merely ponting out that the issue with cliffing is that at lower elo players can't counter it because they are lacking the skill to do so. that's still better than nerfing them and messing with high elo balance, which was fine in terms of pure fire. If there was a way to only target cliffing, i would be fine with a nerf, but as stated previously this is unikely to be possible.

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well actualy you are right Hightech, there shouldn't be any fast nerfing/buffing of cards, there was a quite nice balance in BaFo PvP and Cliffsdancing isn't that big of an issue, allthough there were some frustrating moments connected to it, but ok, it mostly happens after you do mistakes yourself. But what i would be interested in: What do you (or other high ranked PvPers) think about the predominance of Shadow/Frost in PvP? We had this discussion for years if i remember correctly.. ^^ And concerning some other cards: Is it all in balance as it was? What about cards like Tree Spirits, Aura, Church of Negation? Do you think there are cards where a nerf would be appropriate or should it realy all stay as it was? Realy just interested in your opinion here.

 

And people WILL talk about balancing anyways.. so it is important that guys like you, who have a deeper understanding of PvP Mechanics, share their thoughts and wisdom, to lead such discussions into the right direction.

i appreciate your comment.

Back to your question ->.

I think @RadicalX and @Anonymos are the players who can give you the best possible answers.

gonna hold my opinion in my head because i dont want to open a new discussion but i only see 2 frost splash cards(T2 unit - T3 spell) that should be changed for many reasons for an absolute balanced PvP. Its not a MUST and i would be happy to play the game again - with the last meta.

Maybe you've already recognized the cards.

 

The problem is, that you need a lot of experience to win against a "good" LS player. Thats why many players are talking about LS OP like Firedancer = OP because they are not able to handle the situations correctly to get an advantage and the more important thing -> TO USE ANY KIND OF ADVANTAGE

Many players sent me replays to analyse them and this aspect was something that i saw in every second replay.

And thats the key in PvP

- micromanagement

- understand advantage/disadvantage

- What to do with any kind of advantage 

Deck knowledges

- knowledge about how to attack/defend with/without advantage/disadvantage with the deck ur playing.

- How to play against color XXX. Which combination of cards against XXX to get any kind of advantage/success

- How to provocate mistakes of your opponents to get any kind of advantage

 

"Sry for digress"

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the only way to balance cards is a competetive envirement otherwise cc spells like oink/freeze and aoe effects e.g.  lavafield, aoc, eru would be unbalanceable cause the efficence of those obviously scales with mistakes the opponent does.

Edited by Anonymos
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@ndclub Here i bring my programmer knowledge : I would detect cliffing by doing this simple calcule. I calcule the range between firedancer and the well/orb A (A = 50m for fire dancer), then i calcule the distance between her position and moving her at well/orb targeted B. If B > A + Tolerance then it's considered like a cliff. For exemple let's say the Tolerance is 50 meter. So firedancer have to attack a well/orb at a 100m+ walking distance while razorshard at a 90m+. In this case, if there is just a small obstacle and take no time to go around and get firedancer, it's not considered like a cliff.

@xHighTech Mountainer and shield building?

As a stonekin player, I didnt have to learn a lot about dealing with cliffing, in general I dont think it's a problem, but I suppose lajesh is a nightmare for many people.

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the only way to balance cards is a competetive envirement otherwise cc spells like oink/freeze and aoe effects e.g.  lavafield, aoc, eru would be unbalanceable cause the efficence of those obviously scales with mistakes the opponent does.

I would like to know your and HighTechs standpoint when it comes to bandits in the current state of balance. Because it wasn't mentioned but obvious even to non-primes that bandits is really unplayable if you want to reach the top spot with other equally skilled players around. Also curse well in a frost splash - what's the counterplay to that card on equal power ?

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I would like to know your and HighTechs standpoint when it comes to bandits in the current state of balance. Because it wasn't mentioned but obvious even to non-primes that bandits is really unplayable if you want to reach the top spot with other equally skilled players around. Also curse well in a frost splash - what's the counterplay to that card on equal power ?

equal power = opponents curse well = advantage for you in THAT moment = bundle your power into units and use your advantage to destroy some of your opponents wells/monuments in the next few minutes.

Should be possible on "equal power".

 

Bandits and Amii are very challenging.

Its important to get an advantage in T1 to controll the match with your aggressive T2.

You have to determine the speed of play. Defense isn't an option.

Efficient pressure is the key ! Use your early advantage to get a higher one.

Bandits is awesome and funny to play but only playable with great T1 skills. Thats my opinion.

 

i appreciate my victory against hiroo on eylon w/ bandits. :P

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