Range cliffing - standpoint

[Darian DelFord]

 

This is apparently pretty interesting. This really sounds like a healthy nerf to pure fire, but I'm worried about the fact, RB isn't necessary on Yshia which is the most broken cliffdancer-map.

 

Best regards,

RadicalX

Going through some of the replays that I found on my daughters computer, I never realized just how important this card was to pure fire.  It allows them to spawn non dazed units close to an enemies base.  While I think the card is needed, I think the rapid construction is what makes it a very powerful card.  Just remove that and give the enemy a chance to take it out like most other buildings.  I think this will alleviate alot of the complaints about Cliff Dancing.

 

Now if the opponent takes a well close to a fire player shame on them.  But wayyyy to many times I will see a fire player drop a RB close to the well and or cliff, and there is little the opponent can do.  Yes certain maps favor Cliff Dancer.  Just like Certain maps favor a Root network, just like certain maps favor a T1 swift unit rush.  That is the nature of the game.

I truly think though this one change to RB, would alleviate alot more problems.  But alas that is just my opinion.

[Eirias]

Going through some of the replays that I found on my daughters computer, I never realized just how important this card was to pure fire.  It allows them to spawn non dazed units close to an enemies base.  While I think the card is needed, I think the rapid construction is what makes it a very powerful card.  Just remove that and give the enemy a chance to take it out like most other buildings.  I think this will alleviate alot of the complaints about Cliff Dancing.

 

Now if the opponent takes a well close to a fire player shame on them.  But wayyyy to many times I will see a fire player drop a RB close to the well and or cliff, and there is little the opponent can do.  Yes certain maps favor Cliff Dancer.  Just like Certain maps favor a Root network, just like certain maps favor a T1 swift unit rush.  That is the nature of the game.

I truly think though this one change to RB, would alleviate alot more problems.  But alas that is just my opinion.

Yes, RB provides the biggest clifdancing problem. Unfortunately, it's also a core card in other decks and a nerf to RB would hurt bandits, for instance. I wonder if a way around that would be to make multiple RB with different orb requirements? Or if there was some way to nerf RB only when played in a pure fire deck...

[xHighTech]

RB nerf sounds absolutely disgusting and thoughtlessly.

 

Here is a way which would change the fact of "cliffdancing OP".

Do you know that the animation of the fireball never  went throught a cliff? There must be a math calculation between the ground,cliff & ball.

Its only a math calculation between Dancer max. height ball || Target && max. height of a cliff between the route A -> B.

 

If we say that cliffdancer should only 60-70% dmg over cliffs(which would be absolutely fine) you can go for "if there is a cliff (get value with ground datas & a distance calculation), then you can reduce the dmg of the firedancer shot. Thats the only way to fix your worries finally correctly i think.

 

 

[Darian DelFord]

LOL  all I am saying is remove the Rapid Construction Feature, the card will still work as intended.  The Rapid Construction is where a lot of the problem lays.

[xHighTech]

LOL  all I am saying is remove the Rapid Construction Feature, the card will still work as intended.  The Rapid Construction is where a lot of the problem lays.

Would open up other problems for other T2 fire splashes. Props

[SunWu]

You know a thought just occurred to me.  While this will not solve the whole problem it will help a bit.

 

Merely remove the Fast Construction from Rallying banner.  This way Fire will have to take a well and or monument on that cliff.  Currently they drop a 50 power rapid construction RB and there is really no way to stop it from being built.  I think this one little change will make a world of difference in a lot of ways.  Anyways just the thoughts of an old man :>

Woulnd't pure fire players get a too strong nerf on their standard attack on open field ? And the cliffing could still be done relatively effectively with dazed units wich can't be reached anyway, so in the end 50 power saved (no rallying banner) at cost of a dazed/delayed cliff attack ?

Edit: Muh poor bandits, too

Edited October 15, 2015 by SunWu II.

[Aragorn]

Please no, don't nerf rallying banner. Pure fire need this to hold a offensive pressure (low base hp for unit if they spawn with half hp)

@xHighTech That's repeating me in other word. But My formule was maybe too complicate to understand.

Edited October 15, 2015 by Aragorn

[Hirooo]

LOL  all I am saying is remove the Rapid Construction Feature, the card will still work as intended.  The Rapid Construction is where a lot of the problem lays.

If you have a cliffdancerposition the mainpoint is your opponent can not strike back for a long time and only with dazed presence.

If you make an frontal assault RB helps you to make an ongoing attack against non dazed units while not haveing cc to back dazed waves off as you would mostlikely do it in other colors.

So the first kind of play is the one we want to make weaker and the second one is fine.

Making RB take more time to build would hit the second one really hard and the first one can easily get the time till the RB is finished.

This is not the right angle to solve the problem.

Please no, don't nerf rallying banner. Pure fire need this to hold a offensive pressure (low base hp for unit if they spawn with half hp)

@xHighTech That's repeating me in other word. But My formule was maybe too complicate to understand.

Well we posted this idea like ~6 times in the cliffdancer thread. Blocking shots from dancers that are coming through cliffs and set cliffs at any critical spot on the map.

[WindHunter]

 

Well we posted this idea like ~6 times in the cliffdancer thread. Blocking shots from dancers that are coming through cliffs and set cliffs at any critical spot on the map.

Like the two of us discussed before, I still think this is the best solution. This way we can pinpoint problem areas and remove them without hurting Pure Fire's main offensive abilities.

No reason to nerf rally banner. I'm having a hard time seeing how Pure Fire or some bandit decks would stay viable in some match-ups without the ability to apply pressure this way.

[Azta]

I don't think a Banner should have such a nerf. Its a structure for sure, but not a building like Tower, wall, or anything. Its just a banner, a flag which can be put down fast.

[PorousBoat]

Abusing cliffdancing is perfectly fine in my books, as long as it's in the game. That doesn't mean I don't hate it, or that it's not frustrating to play against. It also doesn't mean that I don't think it should be fixes (it should). It just means that I won't berate someone for abusing it. It's unfair as hell, but that's what happens when you have a game like this. I will admit that I'm not completely unbiased though. I play tons of Magic: the Gathering, in which there are tons of completely broken cards and interactions, but that's just part of the game.

[veryhasted]

Cliffing is in the game, if it wasn't supposed to be I think it would've been removed a long time ago, I don't really like it as I get really annoyed at it when you can't attack back :/

I guess all cards have the pros and cons.

[Azta]

Saw this interesting match recently..

Not just the dancers are annoying here, but that gate rebuilding bug... MaranV still manages to win.

[Hirooo]

I dont know his opponent so he is probably gold rank or low green. Thats why his t1 is so horrible and Maran gets a huge lead. (btw a scavenger rush has nothing to do with what is happening here) Frontal attack while trying to get a mortar up followed by taking a close well to frost t1 is already game over. This is probably sparring grounds since Maran decides to go t2 instead of spamming IGs with MAs for the free win. Huge power lead + close well advantage is very very huge for frost so the game was over right there.

So after this won game  MaranV has 3 wells more at the point his opponent goes t2. That should be a free win under any circumstances.

I dont know what you want to prove with this replay but if it had anything to do with the topic of firedancers being balanced or overpowered we can say that after a won game Maran trolls a bit and loses 2 wells to walldancers.

 

Edited October 29, 2015 by Hirooo

[Azta]

Doesn't matter who won.

Point is i don't think anything should be able to shoot over walls. Maybe XL and L units, that would make sense.

But its just lame.

[SilenceKiller99]

Doesn't matter who won.

Point is i don't think anything should be able to shoot over walls. Maybe XL and L units, that would make sense.

But its just lame.

i agree with that... only thing is that you said it wrong... firedancer is not shooting over walls, she is shooting THROUGH walls... i call hacks

[Morathyls]

I always said that a person should use everything that is legal to win his game, that included cliffdancers if you could afford it.

I never had many problems against them with me being pure-frost, but if we are looking for a nerf...

I would suggest reducing their damage when they lob their balls over a cliff/wall.

Now I don't know a good percentage.. maybe remove their siege abilty?

 

Don't know if that is possible from a coder perspective though...

 

[Azta]

I always said that a person should use everything that is legal to win his game, that included cliffdancers if you could afford it.

I never had many problems against them with me being pure-frost, but if we are looking for a nerf...

I would suggest reducing their damage when they lob their balls over a cliff/wall.

Now I don't know a good percentage.. maybe remove their siege abilty?

 

Don't know if that is possible from a coder perspective though...

 

To be honest i have no idea why they give Firedancer a Siege ability. She is just shooting fire balls. With this logic many other units could have Siege ability too.

[SunWu]

To be honest i have no idea why they give Firedancer a Siege ability. She is just shooting fire balls. With this logic many other units could have Siege ability too.

I guess it was planned as fulfilling the role of a mobile mortar in T2 (Back then mortar didn't need ground presence in the target area). Its incredible attack being balanced by low hp and being slow. I guess without the cliffing it would be a relatively balanced unit.

[TREX]

How to counter as Shad Nature? 

[SunWu]

How to counter as Shad Nature? 

Type ,,wp cliffnoob'' in chat and leave. But seriously, i think only aura of corruption can stop a good cliffing as shadow/nature. Not powereffective, but at least your well/orb might survive.