Range cliffing - standpoint

[Aragorn]

@xHighTech agree, ecepted in 2v2. Well curse is a guaranted well down and still safe.

[Eirias]

@ndclub Here i bring my programmer knowledge : I would detect cliffing by doing this simple calcule. I calcule the range between firedancer and the well/orb A (A = 50m for fire dancer), then i calcule the distance between her position and moving her at well/orb targeted B. If B > A + Tolerance then it's considered like a cliff. For exemple let's say the Tolerance is 50 meter. So firedancer have to attack a well/orb at a 100m+ walking distance while razorshard at a 90m+. In this case, if there is just a small obstacle and take no time to go around and get firedancer, it's not considered like a cliff.

@xHighTech Mountainer and shield building?

As a stonekin player, I didnt have to learn a lot about dealing with cliffing, in general I dont think it's a problem, but I suppose lajesh is a nightmare for many people.

Hey! That's exactly what I recommended doing a long time ago . . . why did no one listen to me?

@xHighTech

You're totally talking about mountaineer and shield building. I think making mountaineer pure frost would make him a bit unusable, because who needs mountaineer and war eagle? And what would fire-frost do? Fire-frost is the real deck that the mountaineer comes into play. I think it should be changed to a fire-frost card (nice symmetry with one fire-frost and one shad-nat). This prevents LS or stonekin lames with mounty, while keeping it for the faction is it most useful in.

Shield building should definitely not be usable with church of negation. Making it require 2 frost orbs would probably fix the problem.

[xHighTech]

@xHighTech agree, ecepted in 2v2. Well curse is a guaranted well down and still safe.

In 2on2 there are other situations for cliffdancers & support so there is no way to compare 1vs1 & 2vs2.

 

Hey! That's exactly what I recommended doing a long time ago . . . why did no one listen to me?

@xHighTech

You're totally talking about mountaineer and shield building. I think making mountaineer pure frost would make him a bit unusable, because who needs mountaineer and war eagle? And what would fire-frost do? Fire-frost is the real deck that the mountaineer comes into play. I think it should be changed to a fire-frost card (nice symmetry with one fire-frost and one shad-nat). This prevents LS or stonekin lames with mounty, while keeping it for the faction is it most useful in.

Shield building should definitely not be usable with church of negation. Making it require 2 frost orbs would probably fix the problem.

@Eirias Wow. I wrote that i dont name any cards because i dont want to open a new discussion and what are you doing?

Sometimes im very ashamed about people like you. You only read what you want to read and not the rest of a text - church of negation is the same like reaver spam & do perm heal. (Link below)

i'll dont comment your discussion but there is a directly answer to your question in your post.

 

 

I hope that you guys understand right now why many "high ranked" players dont comment those threads because it makes no scense and only a few people are reading posts completely.

i tried it but it seems to be a never ending story.

Im out

> Final statement <.

Questions ? -> PM

 

 

[Aragorn]

@xHighTech I was talking about curse well in 2v2, it's less than half the risk, people have higher energie and using well curse only affect short time defense of the user while the ally still have everything, the damage is not as strong as 1v1 (proportion of well), but just the fact it's guaranted well down for less risk. I wasnt talking about firedancer cliff in 2v2, It's still similar and even less op because of synergie people can defend better.

@Eirias Because i'm cute people listen me

Edited August 29, 2015 by Aragorn

[SunWu]

I hope that you guys understand right now why many "high ranked" players dont comment those threads because it makes no scense and only a few people are reading posts completely.

i tried it but it seems to be a never ending story.

Im out

I always thought it's because of the lack of highranked players in general....or because high ELO doesn't automatically mean wise and interested in balance....or because some highranked players loved the abuse of unbalanced tactics....or because they're simply to lazy and rather use their time to farm ELO...

but you think it has to be because people don't apreciate every single one of your words as if they are pure gold ? C'mon that's a bit melodramatic !

[Aragorn]

@SunWu II. Oh dude, have you ever seen maranv in official forum. He spend his time to comment and developpe argument about balancing. We don't hate pure gold elo, it's just sometime it's a lost fight when we try to explain their mistake. Sometime they do 10 mistake and any of them was enough to loose but only see 1 lame tactic at 1 moment of the game.

[xHighTech]

-

Edited August 30, 2015 by xHighTech

[matmicback]

Before you are talking about cliffdancer, think about your knowledge about map controll and mapspots.

Its possible to REACT.

I know that many players flamed ingame about cliffdancers but last but not least it was their fault - wrong taken wells - disadvantage - bad map controll - no presure - wrong counter plays or something else = They played wrong against pure fire but many many many players only see the Firedancer. (Firedancer(70), Banner(50) btw

Have you guys noticed this aspects after you won/lost ? I dont think so !

In this case if anyone has a disadvantage its doesnt matter what the opponent plays. cliffdancer in combination with other units - reaver(LS) - do(NN) spam. Would be a loose anyway because the disadvantage.

 

There are some stupid (rndm-)maps where cliffdancers can really decides matches but those maps are very rare.

i wanna see some youtube replays where a pure fire player only won because of cliffdancers.

 

But at last i dont understand why your talking about balancing.

I think and HOPE that they dont edit cards !

If they would change the stats of the cards that you guys commented in this forum - pvp would die in 2-3 days.

And if they should change some broken cards in pvp it would be Mountaineer to 2x frost

greetz

 

 

hahahaha first of all... atleast someone can understand me.. no need to cry about cliffdancer need to cry that u played bad and took wrong moves..

about the youtube replays.. there are no replays that can show that someone won only cuz of cliffdancer so u right there is nothing to do with this card or anyother card..

from my point of view the game was good.. nothing to change.. maybe some small changes here and there but nothing big.. about the mountaineer^^ ye i saw that hahaha if we dont need to nerf something like cliffdancer why should we nerf mountaineer? i dont think u right in this point.. cuz if we nerf something the game will be unblanced and it will be lame..

[matmicback]

I would like to know your and HighTechs standpoint when it comes to bandits in the current state of balance. Because it wasn't mentioned but obvious even to non-primes that bandits is really unplayable if you want to reach the top spot with other equally skilled players around. Also curse well in a frost splash - what's the counterplay to that card on equal power ?

 

Bandits and Amii are very challenging.

Its important to get an advantage in T1 to controll the match with your aggressive T2.

You have to determine the speed of play. Defense isn't an option.

Efficient pressure is the key ! Use your early advantage to get a higher one.

Bandits is awesome and funny to play but only playable with great T1 skills. Thats my opinion.

 

i appreciate my victory against hiroo on eylon w/ bandits.

good to know that somebody wants to play bandits.. i was in rank 7# in game i think when i played bandits.. i think most of the players knows me like the someone that played LS..

i played t1 shadow and were good with it^^ more then good i think.. i won any player in t1 anyone but cdkillroy.. need to win him haha^^

but to the point.. i played bandits with t1 shadow and hightech is right.. bandits need to get adv in t1 to get op t2 gameplay..

when u have adv in t2 with bandits u can do what ever u want and u will win.. nothing can stop u and im telling u this cuz i played like 200+ games with it.. if u dont understand im talking to sunwu..

anyone can be good in t1 only need to practice.. i was bad rly bad in the start.. didint know what im doing but then i saw the dmg that the units does or witch unit is better.. when i get that skills i started to win alot of hard matches.. hope that more players in game get that skills too.. when it will happen  the game will be much better cuz we will play against 50 or 60 or 70 good players to rank the 20# spot and not against 10 good players and all the others are nothing then ok.. 

[xHighTech]

 

good to know that somebody wants to play bandits.. i was in rank 7# in game i think when i played bandits.. i think most of the players knows me like the someone that played LS..

i played t1 shadow and were good with it^^ more then good i think.. i won any player in t1 anyone but cdkillroy.. need to win him haha^^

maybe im an exeption but i had to laugh like a 3 years old kid about your self praise, come down because my t1 replay pack says other things 

i dont know how you played against nature/frost & mirror t1 but your shadow & fire t1 against fire t1 was not really good my bunny

Anyway your T1 was not bad and i think good enough for bandits too, but it was very nervous and sometimes unfocused in our matches and what i saw in spectator mode.

#matmicback #lossofreality #Silverdragon

[matmicback]

maybe im an exeption but i had to laugh like a 3 years old kid about your self praise, come down because my t1 replay pack says other things 

i dont know how you played against nature/frost & mirror t1 but your shadow t1 against fire t1 was not really good my bunny

Anyway your T1 was not bad and i think good enough for bandits too, but it was very nervous and sometimes unfocused in our matches and what i saw in spectator mode.

#Silverdragen

lol what does it says? i won u severl times dude.. my shadow t1 against fire t1 was not really good? hah as i remmber i had more then half games that i played in game vs fire.. i had a good score as i remmber and it seems to be from the matches vs fire.. if i was not really good vs fire how do u explain that i won most of the games vs pure fire or F/N? only with t2 mountneer? i dont think so^^

about the spectator mode.. i dont rly remmber something like that but i remmber that i win.. even in 2v2.. my t1 shadow was pretty good as u remmber silver.. dude i played so much games against u and i dont get that how u can say that my t1 shadow "was not really good"? think about it again and try to focus on the last days... ty

[Nachtalb]

Hm well i wasn't realy active during the last months of BaFo, but if i remember correctly, focsing on the last days, PvP got rather easy because there were not many good players to be matched with anymore...

[xHighTech]

-

Edited August 30, 2015 by xHighTech

[xHighTech]

 #dreamworld

Hm well i wasn't realy active during the last months of BaFo, but if i remember correctly, focsing on the last days, PvP got rather easy because there were not many good players to be matched with anymore...

yea because we recognized that bf gets closed.

There was no reason to invest time into this game anymore.

I dont know who hold the #1 after i went inactive but im sure that this person was not demi god or prime.

[Eirias]

 #dreamworld

yea because we recognized that bf gets closed.

There was no reason to invest time into this game anymore.

I dont know who hold the #1 after i went inactive but im sure that this person was not demi god or prime.

That was MaranV. And he was a prime.

If you go to 25:44 on this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SAN0YBg-IBU , FarRock is viewing the ranking list right before the game closes.

[xHighTech]

That was MaranV. And he was a prime.

If you go to 25:44 on this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SAN0YBg-IBU , FarRock is viewing the ranking list right before the game closes.

Wow. Thanks for the video.

At the point where we left he was emperor and sage for all the time of battleforge^^

 

//Edit Yea, that ranking list is a funny joke^^ Legend players in top 20, old hero player in top 5. A player that i and other high ranked players never lost against is prime. I dont think anyone should care about that ranking.

But that means im not the last prime grr. but i had more Elo then MaranV

[DragonOfTime]

Could we get back on topic and refrain from insulting each other please?

[Darian DelFord]

For my 2 coppers

Range cliffing has been in the game since beta.  Does it give fire advantage on some maps, yes.  Does it make them unstoppable no. 

 

This game has a long way to go before card balance comes into play.  it really does. 

[Nachtalb]

 

This game has a long way to go before card balance comes into play.  it really does. 

+1 .. There are way more important things to do and to discuss before we even can get playing again

[Aragorn]

@xHighTech That's so true. And people not investising time make other competitive player not interest to reach a easy rank. So many people was #1 just to take a screen shot whole the rest of top 10 had elo innactivity.

@matmicback stop trying to justify, we are all going to have a new fresh start to proove our skill and just let people recognize your talent.

@Nachtalb I want a stable server with no bugs before talking about cards balance. Overall the game was balanced.

[Eirias]

@xHighTech That's so true. And people not investising time make other competitive player not interest to reach a easy rank. So many people was #1 just to take a screen shot whole the rest of top 10 had elo innactivity.

@matmicback stop trying to justify, we are all going to have a new fresh start to proove our skill and just let people recognize your talent.

@Nachtalb I want a stable server with no bugs before talking about cards balance. Overall the game was balanced.

+1 to everything. 

Still, what else productive can we do but discuss balancing? Even if it won't be changes that will happen for 6 months to a year.

The way I see it, the only things we non-developers can do until Sept 30 is to discuss balancing and write guides. Hence what I spending all my time here doing

[Ladadoos]

 

The way I see it, the only things we non-developers can do until Sept 30 is to discuss balancing and write guides. Hence what I spending all my time here doing

There's so much more to do than just to discuss about balancing and writing guides - redirect new members when necessary or provide them with the information they're looking for or inform them there is still no answer to their question (basically just taking some weight of the developers' shoulders so that they can focus more on the game itself), share your opinions and suggestions and bugs you may find in what we currently have etc... Not everyone likes to contribute in small steps or to contribute in the ways I just mentioned, hence you're writing a guide  I think it's rather obvious in what way I try to contribute.

Anyways, I believe this is off-topic.

[Azta]

I didn't have much experience with pvp in the old BF, when the game shut down i was still a newbie.

BUT. If you guys think logically, and realistically. In reality archers on higher place, cliff, walls whatever, they do have advantage. They can actually shoot farther.

And don't come up with the bad excuse its a game, not reality. It just makes no sense. It actualy has nothing to do with both reality and "its just a virtual game". It depends on the lore thats made by the developers. Its their  (fantasy) world.

And just to let you know guys, many RTS game has this mechanic, and its an INTENDED feature of those games. As someone else mentioned before, this mechanic was present even in the beta, and they never changed it. I guess, for a reason.

 

And just curious. Is it not possible to occupy the cliffs and walls in the game, before the opponent ( the cliffdancer ones ) gets there? If yes, then its as much an important strategic step to do as occupying a power well or orbs. Also called map controll. Its important to defend your well in any way, no matter if there is a cliff or not.

If you can't counter a cliff shooting, that means you are not well prepared, your deck is not good against this method. There are many deck varieties and each of them require different counters.

 

And as someone else mentioned before. Don't take wells that can be "cliffdancered" ( this is so funny ) if you don't have or can't counter them.

Edited October 15, 2015 by Azta

[Darian DelFord]

You know a thought just occurred to me.  While this will not solve the whole problem it will help a bit.

 

Merely remove the Fast Construction from Rallying banner.  This way Fire will have to take a well and or monument on that cliff.  Currently they drop a 50 power rapid construction RB and there is really no way to stop it from being built.  I think this one little change will make a world of difference in a lot of ways.  Anyways just the thoughts of an old man :>

[RadicalX]

 

And just to let you know guys, many RTS game has this mechanic, and its an INTENDED feature of those games. As someone else mentioned before, this mechanic was present even in the beta, and they never changed it. I guess, for a reason.

It is an intended feature which means it is not a bug. This doesn't imply that the certain strategy is balanced. Firedancer got a nerf since the beta, they did 350damage per hit (now it's 250). And the argument "EA did it for a reason" is not a good since they didn't have anyone in the team who was really knowlegeable about PvP in Battleforge (TBO didn't play PvP ), the balancing decisions were made based on community feedback (they even invited elendil once so he could explain them their own game - okay to be fair that was a really smart move, since he is probably the most knowledgeable player of all time in BF). Aside from that there were alot of cards/combos who were stronger than cliffdancer like voidstorm / fof balsa splicer / Deep one at release / 2v2 SoM aso. who had to get nerfs in the first place, which sometimes took alot of time because aside from TBO nobody from EA seemed to give a fuck about Battleforge... sadly.

 

And just curious. Is it not possible to occupy the cliffs and walls in the game, before the opponent ( the cliffdancer ones ) gets there? If yes, then its as much an important strategic step to do as occupying a power well or orbs. Also called map controll. Its important to defend your well in any way, no matter if there is a cliff or not.

works vs walls -> this is why I consider walldancer as balanced

doesn't work vs cliffs because you have to control such a wide area to defend, because the pure fire player doesn't require a power well to attack (Rallying banner).

If you can't counter a cliff shooting, that means you are not well prepared, your deck is not good against this method. There are many deck varieties and each of them require different counters.

Shadow Nature has no cliffdancer counter ... not a single one. Shadow Frost doesn't have a counter either (yes, shadow frost can win against pure fire with L Unit counter-aggression, but this feels like the dota balancing "Lets make everything OP to provide counterplay" & I really dislike this idea)

And as someone else mentioned before. Don't take wells that can be "cliffdancered" ( this is so funny ) if you don't have or can't counter them.

What's so funny about that?

There are maps where nearly every position can get cliffed. In addition to that maps like Yshia or Whazai existed. You can "cliffdance" the main base from ridicilous map-spots on that maps Seriously, it was so painful to play on Yshia against pure fire ... you had to win the game with an immediate T1 push, because every fire player would go instant T2 on the side since cliffdancer reached the main base from their T2 orb. If you don't insta-rush against that the game was over even against inferior opponents as long as they had basic understanding about the game.

Merely remove the Fast Construction from Rallying banner.  This way Fire will have to take a well and or monument on that cliff.  Currently they drop a 50 power rapid construction RB and there is really no way to stop it from being built.  I think this one little change will make a world of difference in a lot of ways.  Anyways just the thoughts of an old man :>

This is apparently pretty interesting. This really sounds like a healthy nerf to pure fire, but I'm worried about the fact, RB isn't necessary on Yshia which is the most broken cliffdancer-map.

 

Best regards,

RadicalX