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Wintertide Red change: Wtf were u guys thinking?


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You guys do know the Wintertide Red 150 trample damage infliction when trampled on this card is a pvp pve

anti Large and XL creature kill combo with lightblade for frost T1 against Harv or in PVE Grinders etc right?

 

You guys took away a critical anti large XL size tool in Wintertide Red and gave it .... a useless 30% more melee dmg???!!! To frost

On card that roots your own units? Excuuuuuuse me? When would that be useful ever in Frost t1, pvp

or pve with homesoil barrier existing.

 

Guys, do you guys bounce ideas or actually talk about these changes? Wintertide red might

have been super unpopular, but it's an Extremely mechanically important card for Frost t1 that you should not have changed.

 

I'm really nervous that this is how you guys are balancing. This was not a niche card, but you guys obviously thought it was

and messed with it anyways. Like, that scares me, what are u guys gonna mess with without understanding it next? Scares the shit out of me.

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Posted (edited)

If you dig deep enough, somewhere in the bowels of the Forum or Discord (I honestly don't remember myself) there is a way to be a part of the process in a separate Discord server where these balancing changes are proposed and discussed. However, I have a feeling not every voice matters. If I remember correctly, there is also another Discord for description changes, but again, clearly not public enough for the general knowledge to know about those.

 

EDIT:

Found the links, not by actually seeing them publicly but from an old PM with links. Oh well, secrets exist to be uncovered.

Main: https://discord.gg/UuHGVZKvfj

Balancing: https://discord.gg/n272wqUdPh - also graciously publicized with an invalid invite <3 https://discord.com/channels/173414671678832640/173414671678832640/829319506592661504 . Funny, I can't actually find the working invite publicly anywhere, but maybe I'm just lazy to dig deep enough to deserve entry

Descriptions: https://discord.gg/325RUkmwRG - originating from this forum thread, then created by @Mynoduesp. With the amount of people there one could not be blamed for thinking it's not meant to be public :thinking:

Do with this as you will.

Edited by anonyme0273
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Posted (edited)

I'm so extremely salty about this. I just can't believe this shit. Wanted to let you all know balance team removed your ability to do this combo with Frost t1.

 

You know when you have the card Phalanx in payback mode, then you have a lightblade provoke bait an Abom in forge and it dies from anti-trample dmg? Wintertide Red turns ur units t1 into this payback mode. You also have light blades T1 as Frost. You used to use Wintertide Red, provoke the Sunderer, Harvester or any large or Xl size creature with lightblade, they try walking over to lightblade and you path them through those Wintertide red buffed payback units and the enemy died.

 

Balance team instead gave Wintertide Red 30% more melee dmg. When rooted by Wintertide. As in you are self entangling rooted, a common anti-melee debuff. I'm seriously considering quitting if this is the balance quality we can expect later on.

 

Congrats guys, now you can't kill Grinders on Bad Harv Expert or Soulhunters on Blight Expert or Twi juggers on Guns of Lyr Expert as Frost t1 with Winteride Red and lightblades now.

 

Yes, I am this salty, but let's be real. Am I wrong?

They replaced a unique t1 frost tool with a poorly thought out idea.

Edited by chickennoodler
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17 minutes ago, anonyme0273 said:

If you dig deep enough, somewhere in the bowels of the Forum or Discord (I honestly don't remember myself) there is a way to be a part of the process in a separate Discord server where these balancing changes are proposed and discussed. However, I have a feeling not every voice matters. If I remember correctly, there is also another Discord for description changes, but again, clearly not public enough for the general knowledge to know about those.

I just feel alienated. Anyone who uses lightblade phalanx's payback would have told them to not change Wintertide's payback mechanic.

This is a very VERY old battleforge era strat.

 

It's even used in a community game called ground hog day for god's sake..... but no devs or balance team caught on they were patching such a critical t1 spell mechanic tool?

 

How can I trust them then? What's next? Northern keep? Scorched Earth? 2 Envenom type stacking? Chaos knights?

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This is the kind of things I wanted to make sure never happened, and that's why I express my opinions so vocally and most of the time probably in an annoying way.

I already ruined my reputation but I still prefer it over a ruined game.

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Quote from the balancing discord server regarding this change:
 

Quote

 

Wintertide:

Removed trample revenge damage and added +30% more damage for melee units.

We currently want to bring more diversity into Frost T1's play patterns. We aim to create overall healthier T1 interactions with mixed unit compositions in most matchups. Currently Wintertide prevents this approach as it heavily scales with mass Master Archer compositions and attacks its direct counter, Dreadcharger, in the Shadow matchup. The trample reflect mechanic prevents higher amounts of Dreadchargers to be viable. We want to remove this interaction as a first step to bring Frost T1 into a more interesting place. This might be followed by additional changes towards Frost T1 in the future. To keep Wintertide (fire) appealing as a card, a new mechanic will be introduced. It will now amplify damage dealt by melee units.

 

 

There are a lot of thoughts behind every single change. There is a group of very experienced PvP experts that discuss the changes with each other before they announce it, so you can be sure that they are aware of the potential this card has as a XL counter with lightblade for example.

If you still disagree, I suggest you join the balancing discord and state your reasoning there.

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, Chibiterasu said:

Quote from the balancing discord server regarding this change:
 

 

There are a lot of thoughts behind every single change. There is a group of very experienced PvP experts that discuss the changes with each other before they announce it, so you can be sure that they are aware of the potential this card has as a XL counter with lightblade for example.

If you still disagree, I suggest you join the balancing discord and state your reasoning there.

He (OP) was looking at the change from the PvE perspective, so giving him the "There is a group of very experienced PvP experts that discuss the changes with each other before they announce it" is kinda off.

There is a reason everyone is annoyed by the lack of PvE representatives in the balancing decisions, this is 1 example of it. 

Edited by DieToPlay
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4 hours ago, anonyme0273 said:

If you dig deep enough, somewhere in the bowels of the Forum or Discord (I honestly don't remember myself) there is a way to be a part of the process in a separate Discord server where these balancing changes are proposed and discussed. However, I have a feeling not every voice matters. If I remember correctly, there is also another Discord for description changes, but again, clearly not public enough for the general knowledge to know about those.

 

EDIT:

Found the links, not by actually seeing them publicly but from an old PM with links. Oh well, secrets exist to be uncovered.

Main: https://discord.gg/UuHGVZKvfj

Balancing: https://discord.gg/n272wqUdPh - also graciously publicized with an invalid invite <3 https://discord.com/channels/173414671678832640/173414671678832640/829319506592661504 . Funny, I can't actually find the working invite publicly anywhere, but maybe I'm just lazy to dig deep enough to deserve entry

Descriptions: https://discord.gg/325RUkmwRG - originating from this forum thread, then created by @Mynoduesp. With the amount of people there one could not be blamed for thinking it's not meant to be public :thinking:

Do with this as you will.

The link that was supposedly "publicized" was posted in #general-talk. After someone asked for a link to the server, Lada generated an invite link. The default expiry duration for invite links is 7 days, which quite clearly was not changed. Generally you could find the invite link for the balancing discord by either scrolling up for a minute in the discord #announcements or searching "balancing discord in: announcements" on our discord.
However, arguably many people didn't know the server exists in the first place, which is why we gave special attention to all of our official discords in our first community update! We've also been working on collecting all discord invite links to all obscure SR server which might exist, and are planning to post an overview of them in the upcoming week. In regards to Mynoduesp's server: prior to our first community announcement the server was not an official SR discord server. So yes, considering it was not our discord server, we did not publicize it.

 


 

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Posted (edited)

"Generally you could find the invite link for the balancing discord by either scrolling up for a minute in the discord #announcements or searching "balancing discord in: announcements" on our discord."

That's the link that was broken btw. I checked it up yesterday, and it was still broken.

 

It was fixed today btw.

Edited by DieToPlay
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5 hours ago, chickennoodler said:

How can I trust them then? What's next? Northern keep? Scorched Earth? 2 Envenom type stacking? Chaos knights?

Actually i just found out they already nerfed Northern Keep !

The damage was nerfed not the abillity but still why nerf it ?

This is very concerning...

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17 minutes ago, DieToPlay said:

"Generally you could find the invite link for the balancing discord by either scrolling up for a minute in the discord #announcements or searching "balancing discord in: announcements" on our discord."

That's the link that was broken btw. I checked it up yesterday, and it was still broken.

 

It was fixed today btw.

I guess I'm a witch, because I magically fixed the link without editing the message! :kappa:

image.png

5 minutes ago, Fimion said:

Actually i just found out they already nerfed Northern Keep !

The damage was nerfed not the abillity but still why nerf it ?

This is very concerning...

Nothern Keep was a bug fix, one affinity had 72 damage and 180 splash, the other had 72 damage and 108 splash. Splash damage is generally 1.5x the normal damage, so the 180 damage was considered a bug. BTW: Magma Hurler is getting a small buff next patch, so look forward to that :P

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13 minutes ago, Zyna said:


Nothern Keep was a bug fix, one affinity had 72 damage and 180 splash, the other had 72 damage and 108 splash. Splash damage is generally 1.5x the normal damage, so the 180 damage was considered a bug. BTW: Magma Hurler is getting a small buff next patch, so look forward to that :P

Hmm i just looked it up on the wiki and it is listed as a balance change that affects both affinities.

www.skylords-reborn.fandom.com/wiki/Patches#Patch_.23400022

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2 minutes ago, Fimion said:

Hmm i just looked it up on the wiki and it is listed as a balance change that affects both affinities.

www.skylords-reborn.fandom.com/wiki/Patches#Patch_.23400022

 

I just dug up my old notes, it was actually reduced for both affinities, my bad.

- Frost Affinity had the text: 108 Splash Damage U3-U0
- Fire Affinity had the text: 180 Splash Damage on U3, 108 Splash Damage on U2-U0
- The actual damage value for both affinities was: 180 Splash Damage on U3, 108 Splash Damage on U2-U0

Both values were adjusted to 108 splash damage. As reference, Defense Tower has 68 (102 splash) damage.
So both towers have Splash Damage = 1.5 * Damage

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Posted (edited)
30 minutes ago, Zyna said:

I guess I'm a witch, because I magically fixed the link without editing the message! :kappa:

Why are you calling yourself, what I never said. I simply told you that there was no official announcement about the balancing discord, with a working invite.

And I was correct, so where is the problem?

Edited by DieToPlay
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9 minutes ago, DieToPlay said:

Why are you calling yourself, what I never said. I simply told you that there was no official announcement about the balancing discord, with a working invite.

And I was correct, so where is the problem?

The problem is that I just told you that there are official announcements about the balancing discord, with a working invite:

1. Discord Announcement (8th July 2020)

2. Community Update #1 (23rd April 2021)

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, Zyna said:

The problem is that I just told you that there are official announcements about the balancing discord, with a working invite:

1. Discord Announcement (8th July 2020)

2. Community Update #1 (23rd April 2021)

Okay let's rephrase it again so you understand. I simply told you that there was no official announcement about the balancing discord, with a working invite, FOR THE MAJORITY OF THE TIME OF THE SERVER. :)

Edited by DieToPlay
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7 minutes ago, DieToPlay said:

Okay let's rephrase it again so you understand. I simply told you that there was no official announcement about the balancing discord, with a working invite, FOR THE MAJORITY OF THE TIME OF THE SERVER. :)

The discord was created in 2019 by a developer who went off on his own, and didn't even consult the rest of the team before creating that discord. Hence the discord was not considered official, and shortly laid to rest a few months later. In Summer 2020 we decided to start rolling out balance changes to the test server. The announcement in the main discord was literally made before we even rolled out the first changes to the test server.

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Hmm I'll take this back on topic a bit if you don't mind. One question, because I don't really understand the thread creator I think.
Chickennoodler complains, if I understood correctly, that he countered with Wintertide Red in PVE XL units, which is no longer possible?
But that alone can't be it with all the further drama and completely failed sound.
What exactly is the problem of the thread creator, because killing an XL unit as Frost t1 can not be it (if we play the same game).

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

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When most of us use entangling roots to counter enemy melee to shoot em dead with arrows, the balance team gave Wintertide Red, a spell that self roots your units like entangling roots. . . . . a 30% melee damage buff.
 

Does it take much thought to see why giving self rooted melee units a +30% melee dmg buff when everyone in pvp and pve, is trained to retreat and Pincushion rooted melee units dead is stupid? What "interesting mechanic"? Dying!? And you can't stack dmg buffs, Homesoil makes that part useless anyways.

 

Is it really that surprising that I would find this an unworthy replacement for Wintertide Red's payback mechanic Volin? Ignoring the fact that Frost t1 pvp is expected to accept being crippled against M size swift melee spam like the goooood old days for months with no concrete end date, which is also awful.

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6 hours ago, Zyna said:

However, arguably many people didn't know the server exists in the first place, which is why we gave special attention to all of our official discords in our first community update!

I'll admit when I missed something, the links are there. Yet still, attempting to find them by looking for them without knowing where to start is quite a pain, so if they are meant to be public maybe have them pinned on the Forum or have the Discord tab on top of this website roll down with all 3 options? More long term transparency concerning similar issues than a one time post would be welcome.

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We are slowly approaching unhinged levels of conspiracy theories.

You can literally learn "wtf they were thinking" by giving the patch notes a read. They are linked in the official announcement.

There are 650 people on the balancing discord, over 100 being online right now and probably also at most times. What sort of Illuminati are you fighting in your head where that qualifies as a secret? You can find the discord right here on the forum, in the wiki or by simply asking someone about how balancing decisions get made. Get a grip.

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3 hours ago, chickennoodler said:

Ignoring the fact that Frost t1 pvp is expected to accept being crippled against M size swift melee spam like the goooood old days for months with no concrete end date, which is also awful.

You obviously didn't notice they reworked a lot of the maps so that frost now has much better chances of gaining mapcontrol / defending swift rushes.

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On 5/5/2021 at 3:05 PM, anonyme0273 said:

I'll admit when I missed something, the links are there. Yet still, attempting to find them by looking for them without knowing where to start is quite a pain, so if they are meant to be public maybe have them pinned on the Forum or have the Discord tab on top of this website roll down with all 3 options? More long term transparency concerning similar issues than a one time post would be welcome.

As Zyna already mentioned, we will post the complete list of channels in the next Community Update, and will try to make it clearer on the discord as well. It was never intended to be secret. 

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