Community Update - September

[Fundus]

I have never used amii monument but i don't understand this nobody is forced to use amii monument and it is clear that alot of people like this card and maybe some will even stop playing because of this. Like Dolewan said a checkbox that the Map leader can use to set whether to use the card or not would be a good solution or you could simply not allow the use of  amii monument for speedruns achievements and events and tournaments. The new concept of amii monument sounds interesting but you dont have to change amii monument you could simply add a new card. If amii monument would be a PvP card i'd understand this but this is a very bad idea...

Edited September 7 by Fundus

[Cocofang]

The characterization that the team is just unwilling to take some mythical solution that's great for everyone is so disingenuous. There was dissent but the reception to the Amii Monument nerf was noticeably more understanding and approving than for Enlightenment. A change that was ultimately shelved because the feedback was much different. It wasn't about Amii Monument or Enlightenment as individual cards. It was about tier skipping as a whole. The proposal essentially was not "Let's change these random powerful cards", it was "Let's change tier skipping".

There was every intention to remove tier skipping from the game altogether so shelving the Enlightenment changes was the compromise. The concession has been made based on community feedback. One card is getting changed, the other is not. Tier skipping is staying in the game in the form of one of the most iconic cards while removing it from the cash-grab addendum.

[Fundus]

I still don't understand the point of changing Amii Monument you are not forced to use it and if you don't want your teammates to use it simply tell them or add an option that allows the Host to disable Amii Monument like Dolewan suggested and honestly i have never seen someone complain about it in game like "Oh no that guy just built Amii Monument now beating the map is too easy let's leave".

[Jodekoek]

2 hours ago, Fundus said:

I still don't understand the point of changing Amii Monument you are not forced to use it and if you don't want your teammates to use it simply tell them or add an option that allows the Host to disable Amii Monument like Dolewan suggested and honestly i have never seen someone complain about it in game like "Oh no that guy just built Amii Monument now beating the map is too easy let's leave".

Majora explained that players are likely to use really good cards (such as the massively OP amii monument) simply because they are too good/efficient to not to use them, even if it sort of reduces the enjoyment, and personally I fully agree. A game is only fun while it is at least somewhat challenging, and if there is an easy 'cheat code' available it sort of makes the challenge feel pointless as you can just use that cheat code to win easily. So, cards like amii monument being available reduces the enjoyment even if a player can choose to try to ignore it. It's like having a less extreme version of a 'win now' button available. If you can press it, then why play? You'd have to force yourself to ignore it; it's better if it is not there.

[DieToPlay]

14 hours ago, Dolewan said:

It's clear to everyone that the Amii Monument needs a nerf. But changing the card entirely is just too much.
There could have been so many solutions to the Amii Monument problem:

• Increasing the construction costs to 350
• A warning at the start of the match that you are playing with Amii Monument and that this is not in the interest of the map designers.
• A checkbox that the Map leader can use to set whether to use the card or not.

Or all 3 things combined.

With the idea you have for the rework, you could design a new card. The idea of the effect is not bad.
But of course you had to choose the variant that would divide the community.

By implementing this rework, you are putting the project at unnecessary risk because, as mentioned above, you are dividing the community.

Why did Windhunter even announce the change to the Amii Monument in the Balancing Discord without being willing to find a compromise? That's almost the worst thing about the whole story, that the balancing team didn't approach the players who were dissatisfied with the proposed Amii Monument change to find a solution that everyone was happy with. The whole thing was a win-lose situation(in German "Friss oder Stirb"; a community project shouldn't be run like that when making such big changes.

You just can't beat a rigged system, no matter how hard you try.

Edited September 8 by DieToPlay

[Fimion]

11 hours ago, Jodekoek said:

Majora explained that players are likely to use really good cards (such as the massively OP amii monument) simply because they are too good/efficient to not to use them, even if it sort of reduces the enjoyment, and personally I fully agree. A game is only fun while it is at least somewhat challenging, and if there is an easy 'cheat code' available it sort of makes the challenge feel pointless as you can just use that cheat code to win easily. So, cards like amii monument being available reduces the enjoyment even if a player can choose to try to ignore it. It's like having a less extreme version of a 'win now' button available. If you can press it, then why play? You'd have to force yourself to ignore it; it's better if it is not there.

I used Amii Monument excessively when i was new and it really helped me getting into the game especially cPvE. But when i got better i slowly started removing it from my decks and nowadays i dont use it anymore at all because i enjoy playing at T3 and not instantly going T4.

I dont believe Amii Monument makes Batleforge less fun and that players are somehow forced to use it because its so powerful or do you have any evidence that backs your claim? When it comes to RPGs for example there are cheats available for pretty much any game but they have absolutely no negative impact on those games. 

 

 

Edited September 8 by Fimion

[SunWu]

2 hours ago, Fimion said:

I dont believe Amii Monument makes Batleforge less fun and that players are somehow forced to use it because its so powerful or do you have any evidence that backs your claim?

Fun is subjective and hard to measure and of course there's no one physically forcing players to use amii monument but:

On 9/1/2024 at 9:10 PM, WindHunter said:

[...] a card included in 33% of all PvE decks across all PvE modes (community, campaign, rPvE). This card has the same playrate as a T1 staple card like Windweavers, Surge of Light, or Nomads. No T3 card should have a play rate even close to this level, especially not a legendary.

People more often than not don't choose what's most fun, our ape brains tell us to use what's most efficent even when it diminshes an overall positive experience.

[Vysnia]

Honestly I dont think that this card needed that drastic change. Slight changes like power costs or building/activation times, or making it ultra rare etc are ok, but thats too much.

Using amii monument should be optional and not a necessity.

p.s. for a challenge I have several decks containing t1, t2 and t3 cards only (no t4, no amii mon.)

[Fimion]

15 minutes ago, SunWu said:

Fun is subjective and hard to measure and of course there's no one physically forcing players to use amii monument but:

People more often than not don't choose what's most fun, our ape brains tell us to use what's most efficent even when it diminshes an overall positive experience.

Well my brain doesnt tell me that at all lots of times expecially when i play with very good players and know that i wont have to carry my team i use decks that i specifically built to be less powerful than my main decks.

[SunWu]

6 minutes ago, Fimion said:

Well my brain doesnt tell me that at all lots of times expecially when i play with very good players and know that i wont have to carry my team i use decks that i specifically built to be less powerful than my main decks.

If amii monument was never introduced to the game - do you think there would be a huge demand for a T3 skipper?

And if amii monument really enhaces the overall experience of most players, why not introduce little amii monuments for T1 and T2?Then you can (if you want) skip almost the whole game, only play T4. I'm sure some people would love it, but probably only for a week until they beat every map easily and get bored.

[Fimion]

37 minutes ago, SunWu said:

If amii monument was never introduced to the game - do you think there would be a huge demand for a T3 skipper?

How am i supposed to know that? If Battleforge was never created do you think there would be a huge demand for Battleforge?

Amii Monument exists and alot of people like it and will miss it thats a fact.

39 minutes ago, SunWu said:

And if amii monument really enhaces the overall experience of most players, why not introduce little amii monuments for T1 and T2?Then you can (if you want) skip almost the whole game, only play T4. I'm sure some people would love it, but probably only for a week until they beat every map easily and get bored.

There is a big difference between just skipping T3 and going T4 instantly i mostly play rPvE Expert+ and Amii Monu isnt that powerful there it can be useful when you have a close base at T4 or a boss enemy but usually it doesnt give you much of an advantage. On Bad Harvest for example its not that important either you can easily attack and defend with just T3 by using Razorleaf Stronghold Frenetic+Infect and so on.

Or simply allow the group leader to disable Amii Monu that would be the best option.

 

 

[Metagross31]

We could also add Teststrike (The test server-only card, that oneshots everything at T1 without groundpresence) to the main game. It would allow for everyone to cheese every map and skip T1-T4. But people could just not use it and the group leader could say "No teststrike please" and check everyones deck and we could say at each event "Teststrike is banned". It would even allow for much faster speedrun strats on almost all maps. But would that be a good idea? I highly doubt it. But if we then would remove it again, that woyld kill all the new strats and decks with Teststrike in them. Would you then protest against Teststrike being removed?

With Amii Monument it is similar but less drastic. It doesn't remove T1-T4, but it can be used to effectively remove T3 mostly from the game. While its presence may enable some (by the map makers unintended) strategies, it removes a lot of theorycrafting and potentially much more colourful startegies and options from the game.

And regarding the "just don't use it" argument; that completely negclegts the impact of human psyche, that SunWu mentioned. By that logic you also say "What's the problem with gambling or drugs? Just don't do it lol"

[Ultralord]

oh look: "a wild patch Teaser appeared" 👀

 

[Fimion]

2 hours ago, Metagross31 said:

We could also add Teststrike (The test server-only card, that oneshots everything at T1 without groundpresence) to the main game. It would allow for everyone to cheese every map and skip T1-T4. But people could just not use it and the group leader could say "No teststrike please" and check everyones deck and we could say at each event "Teststrike is banned". It would even allow for much faster speedrun strats on almost all maps. But would that be a good idea? I highly doubt it. But if we then would remove it again, that woyld kill all the new strats and decks with Teststrike in them. Would you then protest against Teststrike being removed?

With Amii Monument it is similar but less drastic. It doesn't remove T1-T4, but it can be used to effectively remove T3 mostly from the game. While its presence may enable some (by the map makers unintended) strategies, it removes a lot of theorycrafting and potentially much more colourful startegies and options from the game.

 

Sorry but comparing Teststrike to Amii Monument is just idiotic yes on some maps Amii Monu is very powerful but on others its not even worth a deck slot. There are very strong T3 cards and combinations that are just as powerful as Amii Monu Enlightenment+Batariel for example or T3 Root Networks and many others.

2 hours ago, Metagross31 said:

And regarding the "just don't use it" argument; that completely negclegts the impact of human psyche, that SunWu mentioned. By that logic you also say "What's the problem with gambling or drugs? Just don't do it lol"

Why are you comparing Amii Monument to addictions that can and will ruin your life? Usually using the strongest decks isnt even the most enjoyable way of playing BattleForge in fact creating and testing new and unusual decks is way more fun for me than using amii monu ever was.

There are so many players who dont use Amii Monument i have used Amii Monu alot in the past and i never felt addicted it just got more and more boring thats why i dont use it anymore. But im more of an rPvE player and i know that Amii Monu if much more impactful in cPvE than in rPvE.

Maybe you should ask people who play cPvE alot of they feel addicted to using Amii Monu or if it somehow negatively affects their BattleForge experience but i cant imagine that being the case. Amii Monu is just useful card for some maps and a pretty useless one for others.

Edited September 8 by Fimion

[WindHunter]

If the reasoning we provided is itself somehow not sufficient, we have years worth of feedback to support every conclusion we presented. We have testimonies from players who said they quit because of Amii Monument and many others who asked us to nerf it specifically because they cannot stop themselves from using it despite not wanting to. We have the data to show it has an absurdly high playrate for a T3 card and that most other T3 cards have correspondingly low playrates. And it is not like any of this came out of nowhere, the problems with Amii Monument have been discussed for years. When the balance discord opened back in 2019, some players were begging the devs to remove Amii Monument from the game before the rerelease, or at least to lock it behind so massive a wall that the vast majority of the playerbase could not touch it. Clearly, for these players, "just don't play it" was not a sufficient response to what they knew the card did to their own ability to play and enjoy the game as they liked (it ought to be obvious that compulsion is not just the providence of drugs, but that many things in life have this almost involuntary-pull upon a person). After all, their calls for the card's removal were hardly related to its competitive nature.

As mentioned by Cocofang, when we presented these changes several months ago to players on our balance discord, we also wanted to change Enlightenment. The goal was to remove Tier skipping from the game entirely. But we did not just force it through. We presented the team's reasoning and the community responded. There was a solid majority of people who supported the Amii Monument change, with some mild trepidation that the new iteration might not be strong enough (and if it is not, we will buff it, but playtesting data looks good). On the other hand, while a majority of players were willing to trust us about Enlightenment, most did not actually want to see it changed. They could understand and support the Amii Monument changes, it was obviously a cheat card, but Enlightenment had many more restrictions on it and had been part of the game since its inception, to lose it now would seem to be losing something essential to Skylords Reborn. We listened to the players and have since promised not to change Enlightenment. This was the compromise. If that is not enough, we also pulled back on proposed changes to Architect's Call originally intended for this patch after we received mixed community feedback. These instances show that the feedback system is working. 

Also, frankly, it is unreasonable, uncharitable, and insulting to think that we did not bother to talk to players, look at data, and carefully weigh all available options before making a change of this magnitude. You can disagree with our conclusion, but only a person who wants a reason to complain would ever read such malicious incompetence into our choice, and it says much more about them than it does about us or the changes presented.

[Majora]

A lot has been said about the topic (not just in the comments here) already. Id just like to stress that there was never a perfect solution to the problem. Change it, dont change it, slightly nerf it, heavily nerf it, no matter what we would have done, a part of the playerbase wouldnt have been happy.

Saying we dont listen to the Community because you are in the group thats against this change and we didnt "listen to you" is factually incorrect. This does not mean everyone has to agree with this point of view ofcourse. And im sorry for the players who feel we are removing their fun. I truly am.

Just know we didnt take this change lightly, but after talking and observing all sides of the argument, this is the change we feel ultimately will be best for the game and community as a whole.

[Jodekoek]

I hope the Skylords team knows that most of us appreciate all the work that has been done to make this game playable, free of significant bugs and issues and refreshed with exciting new content. Personally I am all for this amii monument change; but even if I weren't I would not complain simply because I just appreciate that I can play it again after EA so ungracefully shut it down, and for free, and supported by a team of people volunteering their time to it.

 

 

[Fimion]

1 hour ago, WindHunter said:

If the reasoning we provided is itself somehow not sufficient, we have years worth of feedback to support every conclusion we presented. We have testimonies from players who said they quit because of Amii Monument and many others who asked us to nerf it specifically because they cannot stop themselves from using it despite not wanting to. We have the data to show it has an absurdly high playrate for a T3 card and that most other T3 cards have correspondingly low playrates. And it is not like any of this came out of nowhere, the problems with Amii Monument have been discussed for years. When the balance discord opened back in 2019, some players were begging the devs to remove Amii Monument from the game before the rerelease, or at least to lock it behind so massive a wall that the vast majority of the playerbase could not touch it. Clearly, for these players, "just don't play it" was not a sufficient response to what they knew the card did to their own ability to play and enjoy the game as they liked (it ought to be obvious that compulsion is not just the providence of drugs, but that many things in life have this almost involuntary-pull upon a person). After all, their calls for the card's removal were hardly related to its competitive nature.

As mentioned by Cocofang, when we presented these changes several months ago to players on our balance discord, we also wanted to change Enlightenment. The goal was to remove Tier skipping from the game entirely. But we did not just force it through. We presented the team's reasoning and the community responded. There was a solid majority of people who supported the Amii Monument change, with some mild trepidation that the new iteration might not be strong enough (and if it is not, we will buff it, but playtesting data looks good). On the other hand, while a majority of players were willing to trust us about Enlightenment, most did not actually want to see it changed. They could understand and support the Amii Monument changes, it was obviously a cheat card, but Enlightenment had many more restrictions on it and had been part of the game since its inception, to lose it now would seem to be losing something essential to Skylords Reborn. We listened to the players and have since promised not to change Enlightenment. This was the compromise. If that is not enough, we also pulled back on proposed changes to Architect's Call originally intended for this patch after we received mixed community feedback. These instances show that the feedback system is working. 

Also, frankly, it is unreasonable, uncharitable, and insulting to think that we did not bother to talk to players, look at data, and carefully weigh all available options before making a change of this magnitude. You can disagree with our conclusion, but only a person who wants a reason to complain would ever read such malicious incompetence into our choice, and it says much more about them than it does about us or the changes presented.

Show us these testimonies please.

Why was this only being discussed on Discord and not on the Forums? Im sure alot of players arent even aware of this you could have added a poll in the news tab that always shows up first when you enter BattleForge.

I would really like to know if the majority of BattleForge players support your changes or just some people on Discord.
 

 

[UltDragon]

Amii Monument changes are a buff to my Comet Catcher + Skyelf Sage deck, nice 🤩

[DrRichardKimble]

I have been a player of this game since it came out.  I was sad to see it go.  When it came back, I was excited and I play it daily.  However, when you completely nerf a card, not just nerf it but 100% completely change it, you frustrate and tick off a lot of people.  If I want to play with Amii Monument at tier 3, why not.  I like playing advance/expert games solo, which I can do with Amii monument....well that's changed.  I wonder if I'll play weekly now.

Instead of completely redesigning the card, you should have created a new card.

Poor choice.....really poor choice.

[Cocofang]

This change has no bearing on the feasibility of solo runs. All maps that you could solo before, you can still do after. Evidently you were already able to reach T3, that didn't change. And now you have an entire, newly buffed T3 roster to pick from.

Additionally, a legacy server is planned that will serve as a permanent time capsule for the state of the game when it was originally sunset.

[Metagross31]

9 hours ago, Fimion said:

Show us these testimonies please.

Why was this only being discussed on Discord and not on the Forums? Im sure alot of players arent even aware of this you could have added a poll in the news tab that always shows up first when you enter BattleForge.

I would really like to know if the majority of BattleForge players support your changes or just some people on Discord.
 

 

Literally the first thing you see when going to the forums is a bih banner pointing you towards Discord. There are also official posts on the forum, which list all official SR Discord servers, including the balancing Discord. Also, all balance changes, from big changes like Amii Monument to minor things like "Increase Lyrish Knight HP by 20", were posted there first with the possibility to talk about them in length and this has been the practice for years now. So I don't think the team is at fault for not making it even more obvious where to find balancinh discussions.

[Fimion]

57 minutes ago, Metagross31 said:

Literally the first thing you see when going to the forums is a bih banner pointing you towards Discord. There are also official posts on the forum, which list all official SR Discord servers, including the balancing Discord. Also, all balance changes, from big changes like Amii Monument to minor things like "Increase Lyrish Knight HP by 20", were posted there first with the possibility to talk about them in length and this has been the practice for years now. So I don't think the team is at fault for not making it even more obvious where to find balancinh discussions.

Many players dont use discord and others dont even speak english thats why i believe you should add a poll in multiple languages right when the game starts up. Id really like to see the results.

[Kubik]

7 minutes ago, Fimion said:

Many players dont use discord and others dont even speak english thats why i believe you should add a poll in multiple languages right when the game starts up. Id really like to see the results.

Would English and Czech be enough for you? Because I do not speak any other language. And what about doing it the other way around, disable the forum, and use only Discord? Then no one can complain, that they do not use Discord.

[Fimion]

14 minutes ago, Kubik said:

Would English and Czech be enough for you? Because I do not speak any other language. And what about doing it the other way around, disable the forum, and use only Discord? Then no one can complain, that they do not use Discord.

Just use Google Translate its not that complicated.

Shutting down the forums would be a pretty bad idea just make an official topic in the Cards section of the forum where people can discuss your proposed changes.