Why does Wheel of Gifts suck...

[Dutchy 510]

Why does Wheel of Gifts suck... That’s what the title says. Now hear me out, there might be a place and time where it can be useful, but continue reading why the majority of the community came to this conclusion as well.

Where do I start. This card is notorious for probably the wrong reasons. Back in EA days, there was a bug where it was possible to stack multiple of the same buff. This, together with how easy to use Lost Spirit Ships are, made any map a walk in the park. This was mainly the case for Random PvE maps. Ever since the revival of the game by the Skylords Reborn team, this bug is no longer possible. However, the idea that this card is “good” still lingers among the more casual or older players.

Before fast forwarding to the present, let’s first see what the card does.

Wheel of Gifts is a  Tier 3 Shrine with the rare rarity. When constructed, it allows you to choose one out of three global buffs. The first buff allows you and your allies units to deal 20% more damage. The second buff allows you and your allies to take 20% less damage. The third buff regenerates every friendly unit, yours and your allies, for 3% of their life total every 4 seconds. You can have all three buffs active at the same time by building three of these buildings.

On paper, these buffs sounds very impressive. This is even further enhanced when considering that the buffs are “free”. You pay 180 power up front, and you get a global buff. However, this plays perfectly into why it is not as great or efficient as most people think.

Since this card is mainly used in Random PvE matches, this topic will mainly focus on that area. In Random PvE you have to kill all enemies within a certain time alone, or with a group of two or four players. This time limit is part of the difficulty for the higher difficulty maps, especially in four player maps. These maps are also where Wheel of Gifts are commonly found. The idea behind having this building is that it buffs up all friendly units in the game, which includes those of your teammates. Because of the multitude of friendly units in the game, 180 power for a buff sounds very cheap. For example, for 180 power, you can have about 20 Tier 4 units deal 20% more damage. For another 180 power, these same units also takes 20% less damage. Why not add a third building so all the friendly units heal for a percentage of their total health?

Now you spend three times 180 power to get these buildings, which is 540 power total. For 540, you could also build 2 Gemeyes, which is enough to clear some of the earlier camps. Because of the sometimes harsh time limit on the Random PvE maps, investing 540 power into building will take away the time you could have spent advancing in the map. There are a few points why building Wheel of Gifts right after you get Tier 3 or Tier 4 is a bad idea:

-        You sink 540 power into a building that does not directly help you clear the map.

-        There are not enough friendly units to make this buff worth it

-        Most spells can easily clear the earlier camps by themselves (Maelstrom, Frenetic Assault, Cluster Explosion)

-        You let your teammate defend and attack on their own for the first couple of minutes/camps.

-        The buffs do not stack with other external buffs like Unholy Hero or Life Weaving.

-        Building Wheel of Gifts right after obtaining Tier 3 is probably the worst time to build them, as you deny yourself two power wells, and you leave your partner alone capturing the Tier 4 camp.

On the topic of buffs. Often Wheel of Gifts are played in a Batariel deck, which crushes my heart. Batariel is already a deck with a high initial investment, because of the 540 power invested is just too slow. Besides that, Batariel can not really utilize the buffs from the Wheel of Gifts as they do not stack with Life Weaving and Unholy Hero. (For more information on a Batariel deck, click the link at the bottom.)

Now you might wonder, is there a place in Random PvE where Wheel of Gifts are useful? Yes there is. In the last one or two rows of a Random PvE map, you often swim in power, too much to use even. This would be the perfect time to build up the Wheel of Gifts. This gives just that little extra boost you might need for the last few camps, which are regularly the most difficult.

Of course, when you are playing any scenario map where there is no timer and loads of power to go around, Wheel of Gifts is an okay card to use to buff up your army.

 

 

[Vysnia 7]

I think wheel stacking was not a bug, it was made on purpose.

[Cocofang 332]

2 hours ago, Vysnia said:

I think wheel stacking was not a bug, it was made on purpose.

The bug was fixed during the original run of the game.

You could only stack wheel buffs by activating them at the same time, doing as many as you could/wanted. After that, no other instance of the buff could be added because the icon got grayed out. It specifically had a condition implemented that prevented further activations.
If stacking was intended, it would've been easy to instead make it so you can add another instance of the buff at any time and have them stack up.

They originally probably thought that the condition that prevents additional activations is enough to prevent stacking. What they didn't account for was that during the activation-animation the buff wasn't technically active yet, so you could activate more until the condition kicked in and restricted it. At which point they had to go back and, in addition to the preexisting condition, made it so the buffs don't stack.

Also, there are some old patchnotes left that read:

Quote

Bug fix - Wheel of Gifts: When activating Gift of Juvenescence several times the resulting regeneration abilities used to stack infinitely. This has now been fixed: with proper timing one may still trigger the Gift several times but only one regeneration ability will be actively applied.

So considering that this change was called a "bug fix" and the mechanics behind it, it was definitely not on purpose.

[Dutchy 510]

I never played in EA days myself, neither in open beta of Skylords. I used what I heard other people say over the past 1.5 years. Thanks for the detailed explanation ^^

[PrincessKenny 14]

8 hours ago, Dutchy said:

Now you spend three times 180 power to get these buildings, which is 540 power total. For 540, you could also build 2 Gemeyes, which is enough to clear some of the earlier camps. Because of the sometimes harsh time limit on the Random PvE maps, investing 540 power into building will take away the time you could have spent advancing in the map.

As person who plays rPVE with support deck I totally agree. When i build wheels x3 Mo and SoW x2 I'm so behind on power that besides T1 I have only Grimvine in deck for safety reasons. Rest are spells because there is no point at all even trying to follow people with units.

Wheels should be definitely cheaper compare to buffs they give. They were totally worth using (price was "Infect-like" sick) and now it's... ~600bfp?).

Also as I mention Shrine of War. It would be much better to reduce initial cost of SoW and then just put cost for ability cast. Throw 300 power right after getting T3 is dramatic. Often it forces me to just watch doing nothing and if we are attacked it's even worse (power of spells or units to the power requirement). I would propose cost 150 => 100 and cast cost 0 => 20 or even 50.

[SunWu 159]

3 hours ago, PrincessKenny said:

(price was "Infect-like" sick) and now it's... ~600bfp?).

I think it was always cheaper than infect, used to be around 1000BFP for some time and now 600BFP, probably due to reforging.

Another situation where wheels are really wasted: If there's lots of stonekin units; the devensive wheel buff only adds another 5% onto the 15% adamantium skin. For grinders the regeneration buff is redundant, too.

[WaterMelonLord 616]

I get it Dutchy, I will remove it, but now you need give me an idea of a new card to add to my Twilight deck. 

[Metagross31 446]

1 hour ago, SunWu said:

I think it was always cheaper than infect, used to be around 1000BFP for some time and now 600BFP, probably due to reforging.

Another situation where wheels are really wasted: If there's lots of stonekin units; the devensive wheel buff only adds another 5% onto the 15% adamantium skin. For grinders the regeneration buff is redundant, too.

Wait, isn't Wheel an external buff and Adamant Skin an internal one, meaning they should stack?

[SunWu 159]

10 minutes ago, Metagross31 said:

Wait, isn't Wheel an external buff and Adamant Skin an internal one, meaning they should stack?

Indeed, just tested it. I only remebered crystal fiend (blue) not stacking with adamant skin and thought it's the same. Now adamant skin stacks with wheels and also with crystal fiends buff, wich i think is new then.

Edit: to be clear: adamant skin + crystal fiend (blue) stack / adamant skin + wheels stack / all 3 toghether don't

 

Edited July 23, 2022 by SunWu

[WindHunter 442]

7 hours ago, PrincessKenny said:

Wheels should be definitely cheaper compare to buffs they give. They were totally worth using (price was "Infect-like" sick) and now it's... ~600bfp?).

Also as I mention Shrine of War. It would be much better to reduce initial cost of SoW and then just put cost for ability cast. Throw 300 power right after getting T3 is dramatic. Often it forces me to just watch doing nothing and if we are attacked it's even worse (power of spells or units to the power requirement). I would propose cost 150 => 100 and cast cost 0 => 20 or even 50.

The only change Wheel of Gifts will be receiving is the ability to reapply buffs if said buffs have been previously disenchanted. We as a team do not want to encourage a playstyle where a person functionally plays a city builder in his own base while his teammates actually complete the map. In terms of ability strength, the following hierarchy should generally be followed: Active > Conditional Passive > Passive. We want to encourage the player to interact with the game itself, not create a scenario where the game can essentially play itself.

In terms of Shrine of War, this card is already incredibly strong and is easily the best option for multi-person void manipulation. Any cost decrease would have to come with major reductions to its void return percentage. Additionally, an active cost is functionally pointless on a void shrine, it would be paid back immediately. Void manipulation methods are balanced around three factors: orb cost, bound power, and void return rates. The strongest void shrine correspondingly has the highest bound power cost, which is exactly how it should be.  

2 hours ago, Metagross31 said:

Wait, isn't Wheel an external buff and Adamant Skin an internal one, meaning they should stack?

I know you know this Metagross, but as a clarification for everyone else:

All damage reduction and damage buffs are either external or internal. Internal buffs (Counter damage, Bloodhorn's self-buff, Stonekin's Adamant Skin etc.) can stack infinitely. On the other hand, external buffs choose the highest buff or damage reduction only. There are a few exception to this, such as absorb mechanics like Ward of the North, Revenge, or Ice Shields and ammo mechanics like Unholy Power, Death Ray, and Dreadcharger, but generally 1 external and infinite internal buffs is the rule.

[chickennoodler 22]

In rpve to be honest, if it's bandits, this is good advice. Not so much versus harder factions like Lost or Fire memes.

Building 1 wheel and choosing a buff is actually not at bad starting move, just not at t3. Each wheel buff saves

your team time while fighting, so you build them as you go.

 

The bigger issue is if you build wheels and you and your team mates don't fight. Yes, that includes you,

so I can see what Dutchy means. Building 3 wheels when you are behind in power after getting pwned at t2 by

a close t3 lost base is a really bad idea.

 

Spell buffed solo unit builds also don't benefit from wheels at all besides the heal, so if your team

mate is using one, you prolly should just spawn units and follow first.

 

In campaign, wheels are worth it in many situations.

[Dutchy 510]

12 hours ago, The WaterMelon Lord said:

I get it Dutchy, I will remove it, but now you need give me an idea of a new card to add to my Twilight deck. 

Can you share your deck?

[WaterMelonLord 616]

Don't be too harsh on the deck 

Edited July 24, 2022 by The WaterMelon Lord
new deck picture

[Metagross31 446]

5 minutes ago, The WaterMelon Lord said:

Don't be too harsh on the deck 

Just add Mauler for WoG.

[Dutchy 510]

1 hour ago, The WaterMelon Lord said:

First off, play whatever is fun for you. 

If you only want a replacement for WoG, I would recommend Thunderstorm. Since the deck is already very unit heavy, Thunderstorm might be a nice addition. 

--------------------------------------------------

If you want advice for the whole deck, please continue reading. If you don't want further advice, ignore the part below 🙂 

So a disclaimer, this is my opinion and based on what is fun for me and on what I saw other people play. This does not necessarily mean the best options.

Tier 1:

- Shaman bounds power and he isn't really the brightest in the room, so opting to leave him out of your deck could be a great idea. Whenever you need a heal, Surge of Light is always there when you need it, and also scales excellently into the higher tiers, which Shaman does not. Since you already have Surge of Light, a direct replacement could be Dryad B.

- Can't go wrong with Windweavers.

- Can't go wrong with Surge of Light.

- Ensnaring Roots could be replaced with Hurricane in some maps, but that is mainly up to your own preference.

 

Tier 2:

- Fire Stalker, amazing card. I have used this card A LOT and still do. Very reliable and can be very helpful in almost every campaign map. Less efficient in rpve though and would not recommend him there.

- Vileblood can be your "tank" when engaging a camp in rpve or in a campaign map. Very good option, especially if you can keep it alive long enough to use its transformation ability in Tier 4. 

- Rogan Kayle seems a bit odd to me in this deck. I do get the idea that Rogan can stay with your Fire Stalkers to allow them to do more damage. He can use his ability henever units get too close. However, I would prefer a Lava Field over a Rogan any day of the week since a Lava field does not bound power, and can knock back enemies and heavily damage them, if not kill them.

- Curse of Oink, one of, if not THE best card in the game.

- Breeding grounds is Breeding Grounds, I would leave home without it if I run a Nature orb in Tier 1 or Tier 2. Just a very efficient card. Just don't forget to destroy it after you summon your army to gain some void back. Its no shame to rebuild it if for whatever reason you lose your army, or want Tier 3/4 units later on.

 

Tier 3:
- Wheel of Gifts, see commend above, I would replace it with Thunderstorm.

- Twilight Bombard. I have personally never used this card. However, its main function is to defend from a long range, which does not have many application in most campaign maps, and has really no place in rpve. Since I will be cutting your only t4 ground unit, I will replace Twilight Bombard with Abomination. Its stats are just insane and it over-performs every time I play it in a deck. 

- Amii Monument. A game breaking card. Its up to you if you want to run this card. No shame if you do of course, but if you have such a good Tier 3, see explanation at Deepcoil Worm, it would be sad to just skip all that awesomeness. If you wish to replace Amii Monument, I would consider Twilight Pestilence. 50% less damage on your Twilight units + damaging your opponents (and Giant Wyrm), great deal 😄

- Thornbark. This card seems very out of place for me, especially after the changes it got 2 patches ago to function more as a battery unit. Since you do not need 2 Nature orbs anymore as you replaced the WoG, I would recommend to replace Thornbark with Unity B. You do not need the green one as your deck already has enough heals. 

- Deepcoil Worm. I love worms, I would keep it in for the fun factor. However, an army of stone hurlers + Unity + Thunderstorm, nothing can stop that. Deepcoil Worm will collect dust in this deck. You could think about replacing it with Shrine or War since you run way more spells now.

- Equilibrium G, good option, no comment on this. 

 

Tier 4:

- Primeval Watcher, I have a special place in my heart for this card. He is just so cool. Recommend 100% to play him for the fun factor. However, just like Deepcoil Worm I would replace it in a serious deck. You lack a "clean up " spell on Tier 4. I hate it to wait for my units to kill every S and M unit in every camp, that is why I recommend Cluster Explosion R. It does everything you would want from a fire Tier 4 card.

- Skycatcher is a great card and often overshadowed by Giant Wyrm. Good card and fits the theme of the deck, keep it in.

_ Giant Wyrm, great card.

- Regrowth, best aoe heal spell, no further comment. 

 

Hopefully this was helpful. If not, it was fun to take your deck apart one card at the time 😛 

[PrincessKenny 14]

16 hours ago, WindHunter said:

We as a team do not want to encourage a playstyle where a person functionally plays a city builder in his own base while his teammates actually complete the map.

Right now wheels actually force it.

Since Wheels Mo and Sow are all T3 it's impossible to catch up with units after building all of them. They cost 940 power which is MASSIVE hit so early. As I said only option that I have after support buildings is this:

[WindHunter 442]

1 hour ago, PrincessKenny said:

Right now wheels actually force it.

Since Wheels Mo and Sow are all T3 it's impossible to catch up with units after building all of them. They cost 940 power which is MASSIVE hit so early. As I said only option that I have after support buildings is this:

You are not forced to build Wheels. The fact that they are currently inefficient in most scenarios makes this more obvious. If we were to buff them, to the point of being good, one player would feel forced to build them and therefore not play the game. We will not do this. You can play a mostly support deck with spells and the new Lifestream and still actively participate, I would recommend attempting that if you are set on functioning as a support.

[WaterMelonLord 616]

@Dutchy You sure having just magma hurler for T3 is a good idea? 

[PrincessKenny 14]

6 hours ago, WindHunter said:

You are not forced to build Wheels.

You are also not forced to play at all or breathe. Quite ridiculous argument.

[Volin 471]

On 7/23/2022 at 6:35 PM, The WaterMelon Lord said:

I get it Dutchy, I will remove it, but now you need give me an idea of a new card to add to my Twilight deck. 

Try Mauler

[Hirooo 41]

3 hours ago, PrincessKenny said:

You are also not forced to play at all or breathe. Quite ridiculous argument.

What's stopping you from just not building them though? 👀

 

7 hours ago, The WaterMelon Lord said:

@Dutchy You sure having just magma hurler for T3 is a good idea? 

With unity and nature support its perfectly fine for anything really.

[Cocofang 332]

3 hours ago, PrincessKenny said:

You are also not forced to play at all or breathe. Quite ridiculous argument.

Your initial claim was that Wheels force you to play city builder. Which isn't really the case because pumping them out immediately doesn't offer a worthwhile benefit. If anything, it's okay to build them over time. The point is that right now Wheels aren't so extremely powerful that you have to use them right away. If they were much better it'd be fair to say "Wheels are so strong, I'm forced to rush them". But they aren't and they won't be because they are not getting buffed.

They are like Shamans or Juice Tank. The laid back way to contribute and invest into something that will need to pay for itself over time.

[Lans 83]

I definitely think timing of when to use Wheel of Gift is important (as OP and probably repeated already but an oversimplified way of putting it is 0*20% = 0, if you have no no army all the gifts are useless).

 

I think (external) defense buffs stacked? At least it seems to stack with Wintertide for me in forge?

 

Another thing to consider is it sets a floor of 20% attack and defense buff which is quite nice when used properly (probably not as a big deal since people should be generally keeping the active buffs and the down window isn't all that big if any).

 

There is generally a lot of free floating power by end of rPvE maps and I think for 2P/4P, if people worked/communicated a little, is quite possible to fit these extra stuff in. I haven't been able to fit in a Healing Garden with my solo deck but guessing constant ~6% (3%*2.1) over 4 seconds (or ~1.5% regen/sec) seems like it would be pretty decent.

 

 

On 7/23/2022 at 12:46 AM, Dutchy said:

Often Wheel of Gifts are played in a Batariel deck, which crushes my heart.

Sorry, I have been trying exactly that recently and it is lackluster but my reason for that is I am trying to stick to T3 spells (so I do have Equilibrium as well) due to orb switching with Amii Monument and Offering (to recharge Enlightenment and other T3 spells, I don't have max charge on Enlightenment yet). Definitely slow and only reason why I have been playing Wheel of Gift relatively early is wanting to orb switch to 2 Shadow orbs... not the most optimal deck but somethings you just need to experience it to learn... 😛

 

 

I did abuse Wheel of Gift bug back in BF days and it was "fun" for a bit but wore off quickly for me (way too slooooow and boring for how I did it).

Edited July 27, 2022 by Lans
Gift of Juvenescence is 3% over 4s.

[Emmaerzeh 123]

I have to stand up for whees. Its not that bad,  especially for new-mediocre players. 

Imo wheels are good... :

... the more units/players profit from it. So not build it first. 

... players that are not that good in micro or lazy. U can pretty much attack move end of map i rpve 9. Throw some cc and heal here and there and focus spawners. 

... In casual playing. If you just want to finish the map to get the rewards no matter the time. 

For new players it can be a very helpful card. 

Kind regards 

[Hrdina_Imperia 200]

On 7/24/2022 at 7:35 PM, WaterMelonLord said:

@Dutchy You sure having just magma hurler for T3 is a good idea? 

How dare you disrespect my boy Magma Hurler like that. To be fair, it is pretty great card, especially if paired with Unity.