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RadicalX

Top 50: Underwhelming cards in the game

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With the recent events of implementing the reward system, grinding and the open stress test I got to feel again how underpowered some of the cards in Battleforge were. While there were definitely some overpowered cards there were also alot of super underpowered ones, that never got any attention. I would argue that at least 10-15% out of the cards were almost unplayable. Most of the time you would pick some op cards, build up your deck and start farming tokens, while some cards will be left behind for like ... forever. I'll leave this thread as a simple idea for possible future plans since I'm aware, that balancing isn't priority for the devs right now. 

The cards and potential changes don't affect the overall gameplay (because they will remain weaker than really powerful cards), but it would lead to more diversity and refreshing playstyles. I will always comment about why changes are necessary. Most buffs would result in buffs for PvE, because even though there are some cards, that would seem great for PvP, this gamemode is more sensitive for balancing. I just included cards, where I'm 100% certain, that they have no potential of being broken after receiving their potential buff. Also most of the changes I suggest are very simple and don't go into any deep or complex mechanic, so it's easier to predict possible outcomes of potential changes.

 

In general there are some things, that are completely underperforming:

 

-> The majority of turrets are underpowered. Outclassed by the top tier buildings like Necroblaster or Church of Negation there isn't much room left for alot of the basic turrets with underwhelming abilities and low dps

-> Pure Decks are simply weaker than splash decks. In order to fully solve this problem Enlightment & Amii Monument need to be nerfed, because most pure T4 cards are just used in nature splash decks, because of the superior healing support. But this isn't part of this thread here, because these changes would affect gameplay massively.  

 

To add some last words before heading into the list: These cards will probably remain underpowered after their nerfs, but maybe a little bit more fun to play.

 

1: Strikers

Strikers are probably the weakest swift unit in Fire T1. Outclassed by Scavenger and Nomads no one would ever pick them up. In fact they are a nonfactor in PvP because they are too expensive, S units and melee creatures. Buffing them sadly isn't easy, because once they are viable things can go out of hand due to the looter ability (just look at thugs), but a small buff would make them a little little bit less underwhelming.

Possible buff: Cost down to 85 power (from 90)

 

2: Fire Bomb

Probably the most unfun card in the game. Takes ages to build up, covers up a small radius and gets destroyed up on activation. While there aren't any QoL buffs, that can make this way easier, at least some additional damage would give that underwhelming card something, that makes it worth to play in PvE

Possible buff: Damage up to 950; 2200max (from 715; 1650max)

 

3: Executor

This guy is supposed to execute things. But in PvP he's underwhelming and ends up getting kited forever. To make this card at least a little bit more useful a slight damage buff would help, especially since he has an ability, that muliplies the bonus

Possible buff: Damage up to 650 (from 600)

 

4: Lifestealer

Lifestealer is supposed to deal alot of damage, because the turret can't move like Phasetower and also loses hp once it attacks. The idea is similar to what worked for the Shadow Mage. But that card has something to make up for it's weakness, while Lifestealer just has some unspectacular dps. 

Possible buff: Damage up to 1625 -> 130 per hit; 195max splash (from 1380 -> 110 per hit; 165max splash)

 

5: Soulsplicer (Red)

I think everyone who used to play with the green affinity knows who powerful Soulsplicer can be. Sadly the Red Affinity is completely underwhelming (I think it was the only rare card worth as much as a common in the AH). 25% extra damage is legit useless, especially when you think about what motivate gives to Shadow T1.

Possible buff: dmg buff up to 50% per unit (from 25%)

 

6: Northguards 

Outclassed by Frosmage and Masterarchers as an S-Counter in every way. Melee units need some benefits over ranged units if they aspire to be useful in any situation. Making Northguards a little bit stronger leaves them as cool stat-monsters for PvE, that will be useless in PvP anyways.

Possible Buff: dmg up to 700 (from 630)

 

7: Defense Tower

Its single target dps (680 per 20) is lower compared to some other T1 UNITS with equal cost (like Wrecker). The tower needs more damage to be in consideration for any kind of play. Especially since the other Frost turrets do have some cool abilities, that leave the Defense Tower in a poor spot. 

Possible Buff: dmg up to 975 -> 78 per hit; 117 max splash (from 68 per hit; 102 max splash)

 

8: Tunnel

I think the Tunnel System offers so much potential. But right now it's just not worth it using the thing, because you have to invest deck slots and alot of power to make combos work around this card. I recommend making this card cheaper since it allows more potential for cross map plays in both PvE and PvP

Possible Buff: Cost down to 30 power (from 40)

 

9: Envenom (both affinities)

A pretty situational card, but it has its specific use for PvP tournaments, because the poison negates Ravage healing. A very cool counter against instant T2 rushes from fire splashes against nature. Sadly it's still a 70 power card negating a 50 power spell, that is useless in every other scenario. It's okay, that Envenom costs more than Ravage (it's still a T1 vs a T2 card and the 150 power malus from going T2 needs to be considered), but for a card, that does nothing than a little bit single darget damage 70 power is a high investment. 

Possible Buff: Cost down to 65 power (from 70)

 

10: Morklay Trap

Pretty much the same useless card as Fire Bomb just with a cooler animation. The ability is quite expensive and the damageoutput for such a high time and power investment is way too low

Possible Buff: dmg up to 1100; 3300max (from 880; 2640max)

 

11: Rocket Tower

One of the more outdated cards. It does next to no single target damage and is more of an utility card with it's M-knockback onto multiple targets. I think it isn't suited to be a pure Fire only card and definitly weaker than Pyromanic who fits way more into the pure fire deck. Adding this card into different decks makes it way more interesting for some cool combos

Possible Buff: Orb requiredments down to 1 fire + 1 neutral orb (from 2 fire orbs)

 

12: Eliminator

Not just weak in general since it's a casual melee unit without outstanding stats, but also has a useless ability. The buff to a specific unit class is a nice idea, but the values are simply underwhelming, for a 50 power spell

Possible buff: Ability cost down to 25 (from 50) + affected friendly units don't lose any hp anymore (from -5hp per second)

 

13: Ripper

They are supposed to be some sticky annoying units with their ability to soak up corpses to regenerate hp. Most of the time they simply die before they can soak up anything though. Makes them feel underwhelming especially when Darkelf-Assassins are around. A bigger hp pool would give them their own identity and also some sweet nasty potential. 

Possible buff: hp up to 840 (from 780)

 

14: Mountain Rowdy

The damge reduction idea is quite nice, but the radius is waaay to small. You won't be able to make any use of that in a real scenario, therefore there is no reason to play this card. Slow Melee cards without any special abilities tend to be quite useless, so buffing the ability would give some cool additional feature to pure Frost PvE decks

Possible buff: Ability Radius up to 40m (from 20m)

 

15: Phalanx

They used to be unique with their reflect ability and setting this up in combination with Lightblade was a pretty funny combo, but apart from their ability Phalanx are just underwhelming and only used in PvP as a nasty bot. Their damage is nonexistent and making them more useful would be a nice addition for some PvE decks, because they are a very intersting card, that is still quite tanky. 

Possible buff: Damage up to 850 (from 750)

 

16: Frost Crystal

The thing is waaay weaker than cannon tower. So the only reason to use that card is its freezing ability. But that thing has a nonexistent radius. A ranged unit, that is attacking the tower directly is still out of the freezing range. This make this turret totally pointless and without an increased radius I don't see a single reason to use it in any game.

Possible buff: Freeze Radius up to 40m (from 25/30)

 

17: Sunken Tempel

The card is producing mediocre units for 200 power. With 120 bound power through the building it would take ages to make it worth it. You would need like 6 or 7 ability rotations, which is impossible to achieve in any game. Making the ability rotations cheaper would allow to at least increase the value over time.  

Possible buff: Ability cost down to 60 (from 80)

 

18: Healing Well

The card is charging up way to slow. Even though it caps at like 265hp regen per second, the pool is exhausted way too fast and also regenerating at a 20hp per second rate. That means it takes 2 minutes and 30 seconds to charge up ... which is an eternity. Right now this Nature T2 building is completly inferior compared to a shadow T1 building (Soulsplicer) in terms of healing power, which is sad. 

Possible buff: Recharging speed up to 60 per second (from 20 per second)

 

19: Twilight Minions

Early game Twilight units are simply inferior to some other ones. Just compare Twilight minions with ghostspears (who are more versitile and tankier) and you will realise why noone uses them. Increasing the stat efficency would be necessary so that they can somewhat keep up with their counterparts, allowing people to properly build up some Twilight PvE combos later on)

Possible buff: hp up to 840 (from 780)

 

20: Slaver

This guy is an L counter with an awful stat efficency. It is completely inferior to all other L counters Fire Nature has (Mauler, Gladiatrix and even Firesworn). His damage is lower, the guy costs more and it's a melee unit. To make it at least somewhat fair, the unit shouldn't cost more than all these other units, who are even stronger statwise.

Possible buff: Cost down to 70 (from 80)

 

21: Banditos 

Banditos are underwhelming, because they are S-Melee units with stats that could be equal to a T1 unit. The only thing that makes them somewhat strong is their ability, which allows them to get very good dps values that remains unused though especially for the green affinity. Allowing the card to be spammed easier would enhance its passive ability and make give the card some new fresh power.

Possible buff: Cost down to 50 (from 60)

 

22: Bandit Launcher

Another underperforming turret with mediocre stats & a weak suicide ability. But I feel like destroying the building through the ability is more than enough punishment, it simply shouldn't cost additional power. 

Possible Buff: Ability cost down to 0 (from 20)

 

23: Skydefender

Anti Air turrets are just useful in specific scenarios. Such an expensive & situational card simple isn't worth a slot in every deck. You can simply pick up casual turrets, that are more versitile and have a similar cost stat efficency. By enhancing the unique strength of this building (which should be the high dmg against air units) it simply shouldn't be more expensive than other casual turrets.

Possible Buff: Cost down to 65 (from 80)

 

24: Stone Hurler

Another underperforming Turret, that is way too expensive. No one would ever use that thing, just compare it to cannon tower, which does nearly double damage. In order to make turrets more usable simply reduce some of their high cost, because without the high amount of bound power they can be used to cover certain spots and will be picked over units in at least some scenarios

Possible Buff: Cost down to 65 (from 75)

 

25: Tower of Flames

The basic stats are fine, just the ability is a little bit underwhelming. You would never spend 50 power to use that thing. Making this ability cheaper would enhance its possibilities, because you could also use it to increase the burst 

Possible Buff: Ability cost down to 20 (from 50)

 

26: Frontier Keep

250 bound power for a card that offers nothing but a little bit of defensive crowd control is nothing but a joke. Like noone would ever spend a single bfp for that building, which is in contention of beeing the most useless card in the game. Even a huge buff would leave this card in a place, where no one would consider playing it, if he goes for serious gameplay

Possible Buff: Cost down to 150 (from 250)

 

27: Sylvan Gate

The nerfing approach for root network was "nerfing the individual power of some cards like razorleaf, but add some more strength through complexity to the root network system". Sadly it isn't as strong as some other defences and in a weak spot. Buffing the supporting cards around the root network would strengthen its overall power without making some of it's key cards too overpowered. Reducing the cost of this card would also be nice since this big defence requires alot of bound power which often isn't effective.

Possible Buff: Cost down to 90 (from 110)

 

28: Mind Weaver

The ability is so underwhelming. Spending 100 power to get control of a mediocre unit for 20 seconds is something that wouldn't be worth it even in T2 or maybe even T1. Just compare it to the other mindcontrol cards and you will realise how outdated this ability is. Making it cheaper and spammable would give some fresh air to this mediocre turret (especially since it's an ultra rare card).

Possible Buff: Ability cost down to 25 (from 100)

 

29: Twilight Hag

A sweet card with a nice idea. The ability has potential, but the unit is waay to squishy to be played in any serious way. Most T1 unit do have a better health/power efficency.

Possible buff: hp up to 900 (from 785)

 

30: Stone Launcher

Why in the world does the ability cost 70 power? Stormsinger can do the same thing for less power in T2, while she is a mobile unit. Even gravity surge is cheaper. I don't see any reason for this ability to cost any power, because Stone Launcher is just an anti air turret without much use. 

Possible buff: Ability cost down to 0 (from 70)

 

31: Boom Brothers

The approach of giving the ability XL konckback was nice, but the card still need some survivability in order to survive the T4 stage in any way. Most of the time XL units are way easier to support and scale well with percentage heals, while most smaller units in T4 end up beeing left behind.  

Possible buff: Hp up to 3000 (from 2555)

 

32: Emberstrike

The M damage for this low cost unit is apparently very good. Still there is the same problem mentioned above for smaller units. They need something to stand out. While I played this unit alot during the last weeks I felt like the card would be way more amazing if you could simply spam the ability, which isn't possible right now with the high cost (even though it is just 50 power it stacks up once you start using it multiple times). The card has the potential to provide fun gameplay, but simply is too expensive in order to do it effectively.

Possible buff: Ability cost down to 10 (from 50)

 

33: Fire Worm

T4 Worms feel so underwhelming. They do have such amazing mechanics, that allow some crazy plays, but right now it's simply not worth it, because their damage output is way to low. While I agree with the idea of having a low hp pool onto these high mobility units, there is next to no use for them when they don't do enough damage even though you are able to use its abilities on a high level. 

Possible Buff: Dmg up to 6000 - 600dmg per hit; 900max splash (from 4800 - 480 per hit; 720max splash)

 

34: Magma Fiend

The dps is quite nice, but the ability is so weak, it somewhat feels like you lose strength, because of the long duration of its animation. I don't see any reason for this ability to cost that much power for next to no benefit

Possible Buff: Ability cost down to 50 (from 100)

 

35: Fire Sphere

The card has many downsides. It takes alot of charging time, it even requires 3 fire orbs, it is quite expensive, yet it does just decent damage. Dealing with one of these heavy "weights" makes the card way more interesting to use and somewhat worth it for someone who invests 3 of is orb into fire.

Possiblte buff: Cost down to 100 (From 150)

 

36: Bloodthirst

This card is a T4 single target healing spell, which is inferior to Ray of Light unless you've got a dps monster (like Batariel). And Ray of Light is an AoE spell ... and it's cheaper ... and it's a T2 spell. 

Possible buff: 330 hp regen per 1000dmg (from 165 per 1000)

 

37: Void Maw

This card is an ability bot. It has the combat stats of a decent T3 unit which is simple not enough to be played in higher Tier environments. In order to keep the unit somewhat useful a bigger hp pool would be nice so doesn't end up dying in these big T4 fights. You also could make better preparations for your ability usage.

Possible buff: hp up to 2500 (from 2090)

 

38: Shadow Worm

This card is only useful with its ability, which is still worse than the church of negation one. But I don't think buffing its ability would be useful, because this doesn't buff the weak pure Shadow PvE faction, but more the enlightment version. Therefore I do think it would be more useful to buff the damage of this unit, which is underwhelming for a card, that requires 4 Shadow orbs. Also I don't think buffing the raw damage would go over the board in combination with enlightment usage, because you only use the shadow worm in nature splashes for its ability which has to remain untouched as long as Enlightment exists. 

Possible buff: dmg up to 5500 - 550 per hit; 825 max splash (from 4000dmg - 400 per hit; 600 max splash)

 

39: Infernal Chain

I do think the card has some potential for instance in combination with overlord, who would take less damage while regenerating with its ability, so could make some tank out of it. Sadly the infernal chain costs alot, which makes this kind of play mediocre and is simply not worth the deckslot. But I think with some good micro and a small buff to this card it has potential to be used in some scenarios and would also provide healthy gameplay

Possible buff: Cost down to 100 (from 150)

 

40: Plaque 

I think this spell is somewhat outdated and it simply doesn't do enough damage even when it's hitting it's max value. A strong damage buff would be nice so this card starts seeing at least a little use in our games.

Possible buff: Dmg per target up to 150/s (from 100/s)

 

41: Winter Witch

The card is a nice support card for pure Frost decks, but with its high requirements it is just way to expensive to use it properly in offensive scenarios. The card doesn't do damage anyways, but the shield is not worth the high power and micro investment. In order to make it a decent supporting unit it would be nice to make the Shield ability for free, so it's worth it building up the 3+ frost orbs. 

Possible buff: Ability cost down to 0 (from 100)

 

42: Battleship

The card is slow as hell, but also doesn't have any special combat stats. Only the ability is somewhat useful, but that doesn't make the card viable at all. It's fine having these slow cards in a Frost deck, but without any strength to make up for that there is no reason to use a card like that. I feel like a nice buff would be a general enhancement of its combat power, so it ends up beeing a stat monster, so you get something for the very high power investment

Possible buff: Dmg up to 5625 - 150 per hit; 225 max splash (from 3750dmg - 100 per hit; 150 max splash) 

 

43: Grove Spirit

The problem is somewhat similar to the winterwitch, especially since other healing spells are just somewhat op in comparison to what this card offers for the price of alot of power and a deckslot. In order to make it somwhat useful a cost reduction of the heal is necessary.

Possible buff: Ability cost down to 40 (from 90)

 

44: Primeval Watcher

An outdated card, that has in interesting mechanic that brings free crowd control into the mix. But in order to offer that crowd control in big T4 fights you need to get into the middle of the fight, which requires a big amount of hp. That's something Primeval Watcher lacks completely. Increasing that hp pool would be nice and add a supporter function to this card, that fits the nature style. The damage output from this card isn't relevant anyways. 

Possible buff: Hp up to 5500 (form 4650)

 

45: Artillery

I really do like the card, it is cool and fits the bandits style with a big nuke attack, mines and a cool animation. Yet it is a mediocre T4 building and used rarely, because the immobility is a huge problem for T4 buildings anyways. Making it cheaper would be quite nice, because you don't have to invest that much bound power into a non mobile object.

Possible buff: Cost down to 170 (from 190)

 

46: Deepgorge

This card has a similar problem. You just don't use many buildings in T4 anymore, that don't have long range (or global) effects/abilities. They just bind power and slow down your overall tempo in through the game. Deepgorge simply isn't worth the power investment.

Possible buff: Cost down to 180 (from 225)

 

47: Earthern Gift

The card is rare and you can buy it on the AH right now for 10 bfp. I haven't seen any player in this game use this card once outside of the forge. The effect is cool, but the orb requirements are very harsh. In order to provide more diversity in gameplay you could reduce the orb conditions, so you could really use this card (to support church defences for instance) 

Possible buff: Orb requirement changed to 1 Frost; 1 Nature & 2 Neutral orbs (from 2 frost & 2 nature orbs) 

 

48: Ravenheart

Such a beutiful promo card, but just way to expensive to be used. Investing 350 power for this legendary card feels underwhelming. You can play these cards just once in the game and then you get something that has worse stats than your classic units. The combat stats aren't even that great. 

Possible buff: Power cost down to 280 (from 350)

 

49: Shatter Ice

I think the idea of this card is nice, because it synergizes with the overall pure Frost gameplay. But even though it does alot of damage it still doesn't feel like it's enough, if you want to go pure Frost with your deck. I think a small damage buff would increase the fun you will have with this card by a big amount.

Possible buff: dmg up to 4000 per target; 12000 max (from 3300 per target; 9900 max) 

 

50: Easter Egg

Just kidding, Easter Egg is op

 

 

I feel like these changes would be some big improvements for alot of cards and decks, without touching anything relevant balancing wise. If you disagree with anything or if you think I missed some major points: Tell me and let me know what you think about this :D 

 

SunWu II., Eirias, Navarr and 8 others like this

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You seem to have put a lot of work in this topic and I can say that your changes sound pretty good. The game could really use some balancing to make all cards playable. 

Seeing as we have Northern keep in the beginner decks now what do you think about the three first orb frost towers: "Northeren keep", "Defense Tower" and "Ice Shield Tower"? I always thought Defense Tower was the more solid choice and I never really saw the other two being used a lot.

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I haven't used Northern Keep that often and its ability sounds useful in certain situations, so I was simply unsure about what this card can do when it's buffed. While Ice Shield Tower definitely has some underwhelming combat stats for PvE, his ability is quite useful in PvP and the card is even used in high ranked pure Frost games, because it allows you to survive Phasetower pushes while receiving a decent synergy with your War Eagles later on (the Shield is quite big for 20 power).

 

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i won´t dissapoint you but you underestimate some cards

 

Stiker : Yes the striker is price heavy but you don´t take him cause swift you take him cause the high energy production called looter in combination with the carge (what makes them better then the thugs) they were a top tier class card back in the day and ofter seen with firesworn and eruption as mass energy production unit for t1 -t2  so if you would let them cost less energy the looter ability would be insane good

 

Slaver : The slaver you don´t take for stats or cause he is an L counter you take him cause he is a living bomb with clear function in combination with brute he can be srsly trouble for enemys and can take on L on fights were brutes loose it  Solid unit would not change it at all cause ability and combination point

 

Banditos : you say that they are a t1 unit but did you rly read the abillity of Banditos? they are insane when its going to dmg and buffs  and in combination with corsair the Green one can very fast use his bonus  would you now put him on 50 cost like you said you could spawn instant his bonus what would make this cards pretty broken cause  they get the bonus with ANY other unit so they can have like 2-3 shield units  like spearmen in front and rush down then 60 is a good way to get not instant all out so you have to watch you´re energy balance

 

Twilight Hag : you know that this is a mage or? she can knock back small and medium units  so her Hp buff would her make annoying af ... you play a Hag only with a creeper in front that the hag can throw the enemys while the creeper infects them and get them in meelee  don´t see why you would rly buff her cause she would throw then enemys like dolls always arround when you got 2-3 of them with a cost of 75 its pretty ok  and femme fatale can save her too in some situations

Fire Worm : this worm is Sick Af you take him cause he : First deal 2k dmg when he spawns  Second have and Building Wrecking abillity that even hits the units too and a solid 210 cost  for it the worm is not supposed to clear solo everything he is a support unit that fast clear the spawn camps and helps then get down the enemys your buff would break his balance and all people would rush the worm cause he could  easy outstand then

 

 

Battleship /ravenheart  : both of them are pretty slow but did you try them out by yourslef? battleship is an fkn monster what dmg goes it even destroys solo hands a ravenheart without  loosing half of his life  his main cannon smash down most buildings with 1 or 2 shots  and you wanna dmg buff it? i guess only construct does more dmg on this range and you can even fly while shoot what is an unic abbility when you now combinate both of them you have a pretty deadly backline that can stand on river or mountains and shoot easy the enemy away while is in safe zones  like corsair and lost ship its pretty busted cause it have this abbillity to shoot while moving

 

 

Well this are the ones i criticize  :D the rest i would be ok or seems legit the hurler maybe is ok too but the rest i would aggree with you

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Feel free to point out everything you don't agree with. I'm fine with discussing everything I've mentioned here since I don't want to go overboard with any suggestion here. 

 

Regarding your points:

 

In PvP I can assure you, that Strikers are useless even with their looter ability. For PvE I admit, that I'm not that experienced at using them. I guess the looter ability buff has proven, that Thugs and Strikers are somewhat sensitive cards regarding balancing, so I can understand your point here. That's why I went only for the -5 energy cost buff. 

 

Slaver's ability is garbage. The bomb doesn't do alot damage and damagewise the card simply isn't worth anything from my point of view. Also the range of the bomb ability is nonexistent (15m won't be able to hit anything) and when you kite slaver he's gonna be nothing but food in every PvP game.  

 

Banditos are T1 units in terms of their basic stats. I meant ONLY their ability makes them somewhat useful and lower power cost enhances the possibilty to use that ability (at least the green ones). Since they are small melee units, which is the worst unit type possible, they need strong combat stats in order to be useful. Sure, adding Corsair for more units and damage is nice, still Corsair is a T3 unit and you won't be able to use Banditos in T2 the way they are now. Haven't seen any successful Banditos user in PvE, if you do have a replay that shows me otherwise I would be interested to see that.

 

Twilight Hag in a viable spot for PvP would be very annoying indeed, but right now she's way to vulnerable to any source of AoE damage and even with 900 hp a T3 nasty simply clears the board if you spam her. I can understand your objection here though.

 

Fireworm just ooks weak in comparison to Batariel and Fire Dragon. His hp pool is very small, therefore he requires a good amount of attention and micro to be used to his full potential. I still don't see how he could be overpowered with a slight damage buff onto his weak basic attacks. 

 

Uhm are we talking about the same card? Battleship doesn't even use its cannon (only with the active ability, which is very limited). The card is insanely slow and has a lower dmg/power stat than most T2 units. LSS is broken due to it's insane damage potential while attacking multiple targets at once. It's cheaper stronger, more versitile and faster than Battleship. Corsair isn't really busted unless you use it on Titans to solo the map due to their ability. 

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Slaver i play myself and i can only say he seems maybe not that impactfull but in certain situations you´re pretty happy to have him just mention here the twilight enemys but i can see you´re point that he is overall maybe not that usefull as a deathglider

 

Banditos were back in the days like in every deck  cause they  are a good backupline yeah S troups are not that great but they are more kind of a backline for the commandos i play them too but i play the blue ones to go against many enemys with few troups  not that impactfull like the green ones but still worth it thats i would not agree with the 50 when buffing i would prefer buff the hp a bit or only 5 power less otherwise i can see them roll over everything when fully upgrade

 

The Fireworm is a 2 fire orb req Card instead of 3 like the drake or 4 like bata and is only for that usefull like in twilight decks or bandits were it fits in cause of the pretty insane weak t4 ( i mean nothing against bloodhorn but tortu is a point by it self with it hunger )  of its not like them but only cause you can´t relate them ^^ drake and bata are just for pure fire decks made while the worm just is made for misc decks

 

The Battleship well yes i talk about the same card I put 1 battle ship against each other  ships / Buildings / many enemys and  against the ships is battleship the strongest against many enemys too cause its abillity bursts ground units like shit  only i would say is that it lost horrible against the LSS  in Buildings with enemys cause its knock back can fast clear enemys without take hard dmg ^^ back in the day the battleship was even the point to make the ,, You´re to slow " deck what can defends against everything with WBC ,construct , skyelfs and battleship in it  i Would agree that it could take a buff but only that it goes from 300  to  260 cause it can be related with dreadnought who is with 240 and base stats way more powerfull  ^^

 

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I played some Banditos in PvE and geting full 150% damage boost on them isn't any problem. They are monsters when they get into melee combat, but I still don't think they are worthy of slot, even in PvE. They are expensive S melee with low hp pool. Every even weakes form of knockback/cc turns them into unusable trash. I think reducing they buff requirements from 3, max 9 units to 2, max 6 units would help them perform a bit better in PvP. Adding RadicalXs cost reduction maybe, but MAYBE someone would EVER consider playing them in low elo bracket.

 

Bandit Launcher would also need massive building time reduction to fit aggressive bandits play style. It could pair well with Bandit Sorceress then making her more viable.

 

My Northguards buff idea is way more radical than RadicalXs one but maybe will let Nothguards into PvP. So:
- cost reduction to 45

- damage upgrades changed into hp upgrades

- S counter removed (they counter nothing)

This way they would turn into walking meat walls used to put between Master Archers and enemy melee troops in order to slow them down when they try to reach your MA, or to tank some damage from aoe spells.

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Well you call Banditos trash but can you tell me a better melee unit counter   cause the spearmen are M counters with even weaker abillity and and higher cost for a 60 cost filler for t2 are banditos optimal cause the sorceress is the S counter  ranged ( 50 ) the banditos the S counter melee ( 60)  Commandos M counter  ranged (80) and Windhunter the L counter Flying (120 ) in combination with lava Field (120 spell ) ,furnance of flesh ( energy building 75 ) and  Rioters Retreat  in Green ( heal / Tower 80 ) you have a solid t2 that can even challenge the t3  and gains a lot of energy for later tiers  so i wouldn´t call them trash in bandit decks at all^^

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A really usefull topic and you are right about the cards.

I think a big problem in general is the lack of possible combinations. Like the revenants ability for Lost Souls or the transformation for Twilight.

Nobody ever uses them and for good reason: They are mostly way too expensive for the result, it requires additional cards and slots to make most of the effects work (e.g. revenants blessing for Lost Souls) and you need way more micromanagement. Most of the time its just more rewarding to build strong units and support them with some spells.

Also your mentioned underwhelming performance of pure decks is completely right.

There is absolutely no reason to go for e.g. pure shadow or pure frost other than style points. Both have just one (!) pure card and shadow worm is just useless with its stats in pure shadow. But without being able to add additional cards this wont really change and people will keep playing splash decks.

I thought about adding e.g. pure t4 spells which give strong shields (like winter witch) or restore all your units to full health (nature) so it actually becomes worth playing a pure deck.

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Yeah but we talk here about a Giant Work new cards would mean that the devs need a  good graphic designer who can draw in a similar style like the original and don´t forget the bugs the card could have on it  pure decks can be pretty worth i mean you can maybe not shine in t4 but in t2 the harvester burn down everyone and in t3 the avatar of frost is unkillable with the shield  pure decks have their on charm and this is not the play it on t4 units nature has in t3 so many Xl viable units like the worm or the Warder i give you an example

 

Fire : Juggernaut , Spitfire T4 add then Thunder wagon , Moloch , Batariel and Fire dragon

Frost  Avatar of Frost,Core Dredge,Northland Drake  T4 add then Ironclad,Dreadnought ,Battle ship ,Construct

Shadow  Harvester, Wrathgazer,Satanael and here the spell Soulshatter and in T4 you get then overlord ,Grim bahir the shadow worm even if it is not that viable , Death Ray and most important you can use the spell Second chance what is like a global lost souls spell in right time casting

Nature : Nature has with Linked Fire a special defense abillity with cards like razor leaf and thornbark   but also ... well i would say its the most op card ? Enlightenment the card that gives you access to everything  but besides that you can play in t3  : Abyssal warder Wheel of gifts (what helps your whole team)  ,deepcoil Worm  and then in T4 you have acces  to mind controll what can be pretty cool and cards like colossus and forrest elder

And don´t forget the Neutral cards  like  : Mo ,Brannoc  and Jorne

so as you can see Pure decks can be pretty busted cause they have access to the full orb cards  i would rather call that IF and i rly say only IF  we get someday new cards it should be a whole new fraction with it own Strengh so that IF we get new cards we can balance it out ( a good start example would be Amii Phantom btw Nature/Shadow )

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The biggest problem for pure decks i see is that rPvE is way more popular than PvE, with maybe the exception of Bad Harvest.
In rPvE however you need to have speed which all pure decks lack due to varying reasons:
Nature is safe due to a lot of heals, but has limited void manipulation and very expensive units and no notable damage spells with maybe the exception of Thunderstorm( and that is still far from great, especially in t4)
Frost has similar issues, they are relatively safe due to a bunch of protection and damage reduction spells and abilities but lack the damage generally on top of having no void manipulation except for the shrine of martyr which only helps once you amassed a lot of void, so kinda nice but not overly useless. They have damage spells but can only use them sparingly due to that.
Fire has insane damage with spells and argueablythe best void manipulation in the game units and even tankiness with Moloch, but has no way to support a lot of units due to the limited amount of slots for Unity. No heals so you gotta fall back to Viridya or Moon which kinda sucks as you either have to heal up after a fight or have to waste a Unity slot for them.
Shadow is probably the most viable faction for rPvE as it is still the best balanced, even though you dont really use the 4th shadow orb at all - so why bother really? It has good support with frenetic assault and infect, heals with Blood Healing and Overlord ability which is generally enough, decent damage with frenetic again and a well placed soulshatter can do a lot. Also Grim Bahir's little underlings adds to the utility as a distraction and a bit of damage. It is overall the most well rounded faction if you consider they also got CM+ FoF void manipulatioin, but you could also play that deck without the 4th shadow orb as Shadow worm can hardly be sustained with just bloodhealing and Overlord. And not using its ability, well then why use it at all...

I agree with the list overall, even though i doubt it would be hard to find 50 more cards that could need a buff.

QuickShift, RadicalX and Navarr like this

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I agree with the vast majority of these buff ideas but I think it's worth to mention that a lot of these cards would really need a rework instead of a simple buff. Still really nice ideas which also hold up to the principle you stated in the introduction. Good job Radical.

Some criticism tho:

Emberstrike - This is a too huge buff. I would even argue this could make t4 viable on big 2v2 maps in some matchups, no kidding. Earthshaker + this insane ability spamming Emberstrike after a very defensive t2-3 could definetly work. I mean it would be far from OP due to deckslot efficiency but I could see some games taking very long because of this change.

Shatter Ice - Imo this card needs a power reduction or less cooldown so it can be easily used after the relatively expensive freeze spells/abilities. It's damage is neat already, just gotta spam it more. Maelstrom has only 20s CD while Shatter Ice is on 30s so why not synchronize the synergy instead of buffing dmg numbers.

Edited by Navarr

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Don't have time to read all the replies rn, so someone @ me so I remember to come back later.

 

What do you think of adding mutating maniac to the list?

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I know you have more pvp experience than me so I don't even want to argue about this part. I just want to suggest an additional pvp card that I think is the most useless card in the game: Bandit Stalker.

I don't see a single reason why you would prefer that unit over nightcrawler. He costs more, has less HP, is only playable with bandits, doesn't have an advantage over any size of units and therefore you don't have any reason to play that card ever. Even against frost shilds you still does only 50% dmg and therefore it's most likely easier to destroy the shild instead of doing dmg through it. And even against beasts (which most of them are M units), you still do more dmg with Nightcrawler and it's ability.

 

So now to some Pve cards:

 

Rocket Tower: The tower would be a usefull tower if it hit with every rocket. I think if you make the rockets hit consistently, this card will be fine.

 

Twilight Hug: Most of the units in this game count as male units so her ability catches almost every unit except: Obviously female units, mechanical units (like ships or construct), birds and eyes. And her cc is very strong with its additional buff. I just think the costs of the ability is just too high. Maybe reduce it to 50 or 60. Oh and fix the visual effect. The area is way smaller than it looks.

 

Fire Sphere: This card is a very good addition to the other fire spells. Cluster explosion for crowds, Earthquake for buildings and Fire sphere for single strong units. And I think this card does a good job with these creatures atm. It takes a while to do the dmg but you would use this card for bosses or units that are far away. I don't think it needs a buff in any way.

 

Bloodthirst: Like you said, this card is usefull with creatures like batariel (also bloodhorn and tortugun) and is the only real healing that fire has. But I think that's the point of that card. Fire should not have a reliable healing and with those few creatures it is already worth the slot.

 

Void Maw: He definitly needs a buff but I think the whole point of this card is it's suizid ability. So increasing the life points won't do anything. Maybe reducing it's cost would be a better start. Or maybe even change him to t3?

 

Shadow Worm: It can be very usefull but only with the whole deck build around it (or of cause with enlightment but that shouldn't be the point). On the other side it's supposed to be the only pure shadow unit so I guess you could say it's the point of a pure color card to be the card your deck is build around. However I think incresing the dmg is again the wrong approach. The point of this unit is again it's ability even in a pure shadow deck. You would rarely use it's normal attack anyway. Besides a pure shadow card should be very complex and it's stance is a very fitting ability for that. I just think it's a bit too slow compared to Wrathgazer or Church of negation though. So a better buff imo would be to increase the speed of the disintegrate but as a balance also increase the dmg it takes per seconds. Another idea would be to heal the worm after he successfully disintegrated a unit.

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Alot of good and interesting points! :D 

 

@Navarr I agree with you, that most cards would need a rework to be fully viable. That requires much more work though compared to changing some simple numbers. I also do think your Shatter Ice idea is better than mine. I just don't believe that Emberstrike would be op in 2v2. Earthshaker (+Bloodhorn) will remain as the superior T4 choice and even that is just semi viable. 

 

@Mirosius Adding pure faction cards at some point in time would be a great addition for the game. I guess it will take some time up until this gets possible. The only problem I still do see with this is Enlightment. In order to make pure Cards worthwhile they need to either be simply stronger than other cards or add a unique strength to the faction. Enlightment can circumvent this barrier and will allow even stronger combinations for the superior splash decks. Also you are right that Revanants and twilight transformations are rarely used. I think Revanants

 

@Eirias @ here you go :DMutating Maniac is a rather weak card that could've been part of the list as it's outclassed by Fathom Lord, who is cheaper and more versitile due to his great ability. You could give it a small buff and the card would still remain as a weaker XL counter than Fathom Lord or Vulcan in the PvP environment. 

 

@Chibiterasu Bandit Stalker would be my main target to buff the Bandits faction as it could fit its gamestyle, which is about proactive defence and snowballing. It is a swift unit with good damage, but as you mentioned there is no reason to pick it over Nightcrawler. I would like to see the slow ability on the unit (similar to Scavenger) which allows you to intercept attacks earlier or at least force out cc. The card could be great to pick up burrowers with their bonus damage against beasts. Also you are right about the Rocket Tower, but I don't know how hard it will be to change the attack accuracy. Regarding Fire Sphere and Blood Healing I do understand your point and I agree that these cards are worth a slot in a pure Fire deck. But this also states how weak pure Fire is in PvE. I feel like there are alot of good damage sources in here with some great units, but without proper support (especially the lack of proper healing) the deck is simply inferior to other decks. This is why I would target Blood Healing as a support healing spell and Fire Sphere (requires 3 Fire orbs and isn't available in splash decks). Void Maw in T3 would be somewhat OP in PvP with such a powerful ability. A simple cost reduction would make more sense if you want to keep the card as an ability bot. It could remove a key unit in big camps and be a better supporter for the deck. Shadowworm was probably one of the most tricky cards as he simply isn't worth the effort for a pure Shadow deck while a disintegration buff would make him just stronger for the Enlightment deck. An implemented self heal after successful disintegration would be quite interesting, but requires work to find accurate numbers. That could also circumvent any over the top buffs for Enlightment decks. Right now I just wanted the Shadow Worm to be more versitile and suggested the dmg buff, since this would give him use outside of the disintegration. His current stats are underwhelming for a pure Shadow card. 

 

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@doomsword1 If that's your concern don't worry. There won't be any changes any time soon since there are different priorities than balancing right now. Also these changes are mostly minor ones, that don't change anything in the current game. It just makes some cards/decks a little bit less weaker since some cards aren't used by any person like most anti air turrets to give probably the best example. I've seen cards in the AH that noone would buy for the lowest price possible, because noone wants to play them at all.

Big changes do require alot of time (maybe with a special testing server) and a good balancing team that also interacts actively with the community to allow open discussions and offers transparency. 

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3 hours ago, RadicalX said:

@doomsword1 If that's your concern don't worry. There won't be any changes any time soon since there are different priorities than balancing right now. Also these changes are mostly minor ones, that don't change anything in the current game. It just makes some cards/decks a little bit less weaker since some cards aren't used by any person like most anti air turrets to give probably the best example. I've seen cards in the AH that noone would buy for the lowest price possible, because noone wants to play them at all.

Big changes do require alot of time (maybe with a special testing server) and a good balancing team that also interacts actively with the community to allow open discussions and offers transparency. 

There is 1 anti air tower used in the game. Blaster Cannon has its niche in speedruns against Lost Vigils for rPvE lvl 10's :kappa:
I think the Revenant's ability is inherently flawed in that it only activates when you die which is exactly what you try to avoid and as a last stand type of ability it is just way to costly. If you want to keep going with the Revenant type thing i think it would be way better making it either a passive ability or very cheap and change the duration of the effect similarly. So f.e. 20-60 power costs (depending on the unit) and then duration 10 seconds. Or if you make it free go for 5 seconds or diminished stats. or something. I still dont think its good game design to have an ability that requires you to die when that is totally counter intuitive.
A complete rework might work better. I think f.e. it would be nice to have an ability that would give the units a power up for a period of time but would leave them weakend permanently afterwards. Something like, by offering part of their Souls they can get extra stats/abilities, but afterwards (due to their Souls being incomplete) they can never reach their former peak. That ability would be quite similar to frenzy for shadow but less dramatic which would fit its mixed style of being a splashed faction of frost and shadow.

I think with Twilight you could do something with a lot of switching forms, which could make their units super versatile. I think that fits the theme of "Mutants" which they are quite well and could offer a lot of strategic options to the faction.

Obviously both changes would probably require stat changes, the Twilight one more so than the LS one, but still.

I think working on balance changes in the future is best done in tandem with the community. Maybe let the community decide on a few cards via watch list and then work with high level/experienced PvP and experienced PvE players on changes for those cards (and maybe a few extras). I think that could work quite well.

Navarr likes this

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Maybe something to add:

i think the first cards that should be focused on are the ones that can be made (semi-) viable or at least can fill a niche with relatively easy to implement changes should be focused on first. Focusing on cards and adding some stats to them just so still noone plays them is kinda pointless imo. Pick out ones where you can make a difference by simple stat changes of base stats or ability stats. I actually discussing tweaks to those cards can be worth actually worth even at this stage as it is something that can change the game for the better and is least something that is in sight and devs are sure they can manage. Which units CAN be made relevant is up for discussion as well though I'd propose to first to go over the more obvious choices as picking which cards is (obviously) based on opinion. No need making it hard early on when you can simply start with the easy choices and work your way down :P
Reworking abilities on a grander level like (even just) tweaking mechanics slightly should be left to a later date in my opinion - if at all possible.

P.s. Not even sure if anyones interested in a discussion about 1 or 2 cards at a time and what scale of changes would be appropriate exactly.

 

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I would Buff


Rogan Kayle  cause his passive is good but not good enough to get him a spot  bring his passive to 30 instead of 25 % would make him viable and help some decks get nice and clean t2 ,t3 and even in t4 his buff would help

 

Treefiend cause Thornbark costs 120 and is even stronger the costs for Treefiend should get down to 110 from 150 he is maybe i viable defender with his passive but still costs way to much for his stats

 

Tortugun i would buff that he don´t loose that fast hunger cause he is maybe a hard hitter but his constant feed make it hard to play him on long maps even worse then a construct  .

 

Lost Evocation should get down to 120  cause the summon demon give a good buff but costs way to many  for a t4 spell that only summon 1 demon

 

Satanael  Should get a HP buff from 2700 to 3000 cause he is a 3 full orb XL monster for 220  so that it can challenge the other t3 monsters also his Ability should only cost 70 instead of 100 for 3 snapjaws at max upgrade should it be ok cause they have not such an high impact

 

Stormsinger from 60 to 75 energy cause she can be so hard abused in PvP

 

Aggressor should remove the ability to knock back large enemys he should as a t2 unit only knock back medium and small units otherwhise he will be more abused in pvp

 

that are the ones i have in mind right now

 

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TL;DR. But I still want to answer on this.

I'm playing a lot of Elder Scrolls Legends lately, which is a card game aswell and you got some legendary cards there which are PRETTY OP. Like you can win a whole match by just having 1 legendary card. and I think that is pretty much normal for Card games. To get the relation to your post: I think it's the same with Battleforge. 

Some cards are maybe way to OP in Battleforge but they're also rarer (is that a word?) more rare? than other cards... because I mean ofc Battleforge is an RTS which needs balancing, but also don't forget the fact it's a TCG which literally exist on trading and collecting BETTER cards, you know what I'm trying to say? :-) 

I think op / stronger cards are meant to exist since u usually need much time to collect them :-) Sorry if I missed your post as I said I only read the title, a few lines of the post and commented lmao.

Nonetheless I know you're a great BaFo player and got much experience so I trust you on the changes you suggest. So yeah the staff will probably do the right thing as usual and either fix the cards you mentioned or not :D 

Edited by BurningWorld

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@BurningWorld

There will ALWAYS be so called op cards. Those are generally the meta cards or a part of them. That doesn‘t however mean that at least 1/5 of all cards is pretty much unplayable or that you at least have no real reason to pick them up.

That doesnt mean that everything needs to be equally strong but i dont see a reason why you wouldnt want more choices of cards. Give them different strength and focuses so every or at least a vast majority of cards can fill at least a niche which they can be used for. Not everything needs to be meta, but having so many cards be absolutely useless is very underwhelming. Also having more choices on cards which can cover up weaknesses or enhance strength of certain playstyles would just advance the depth of the deck building aspect and by that also the strategic depth of the gameplay. 

That doesn‘t take away of the progression as there will always be cards that are optimal to a players needs. There are already some niche cards that can help PvP players when struggling against certain enemy factions. Those are by no means meta and you generally sacrifice something else for it. Why dont we try to enlarge that pool of cards and maybe add some cards as actual options to cards that are considered core now. 

Also your argument about rare cards being super powerful and op is kinda not true considerig cards like LSS being uncommen and op while a lot of UR‘s are kinda underwhelming ?

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You guys forgot the weakest card ingame: Warlock (pure fire t2, looks like a fire shaman for those of you who didn´t notice the card because he is just so weak everyone ignores him)
This card really needs a buff. I actually never ever saw anyone using it in a deck. He looses to almost every t1 unit and his buff-allies ability is useless.

Also, what do you think about the rarity of some cards? In my opinion there are many underpowered rare and Ultrarare cards (mostly Spells and Buildings) which are like not even worth 10 BFP.

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Since there has been talk on Strikers:

Why is the Looter ability considered overpowered? According to Discord the Formula is something like 0.20 x (power cost of unit) x (% or damage dealt). So if you kill a full health unit you get like 0.2 x 50 x 1.00 = 10 power. Considering you need like 20 seconds this is a power bonus of ~ 0,5 power/second, or 25% of a power well, or even less.

With Strikers you can deal up to 50% of most M units, leading to 0.2 x 80 (for a swiftclaw) x 0.5 = 8 Power. For other units, like a Frost mage, it's 0.2 x 60 x 0.5 = 6 power (if you manage to not get knocked back at least).

Overall I don't really consider these power bonuses so significant that they're broken or "op". You need 11 charge attacks to get back your investment cost of 90 power. If you take into consideration the void power after their death (90% back) you still need at least 2 charge attacks to gain power. For thugs it's similar, you either need to destroy 6x50 power units with a Thug to gain back its original cost or kill at least 1 unit to gain a power advantage. Since Thugs are S units and not swift this isn't that easy. And then you're still down ~ 50/80 power since Void restores slower.

I do find Strikers useful and they're way more fun to use than Sunstriders. They fit the Aggression theme of Fire very well and their general performance is okay. Only thing that really bothers me is their high cost and the fact that they can be knocked back. This is especially annoying on units like Dreadchargers or Nomads. And that they can be killed by an Eruption upon spawn.

Edited by DarcReaver

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11 hours ago, DarcReaver said:

Since there has been talk on Strikers:

Why is the Looter ability considered overpowered? According to Discord the Formula is something like 0.20 x (power cost of unit) x (% or damage dealt). So if you kill a full health unit you get like 0.2 x 50 x 1.00 = 10 power. Considering you need like 20 seconds this is a power bonus of ~ 0,5 power/second, or 25% of a power well, or even less.

With Strikers you can deal up to 50% of most M units, leading to 0.2 x 80 (for a swiftclaw) x 0.5 = 8 Power. For other units, like a Frost mage, it's 0.2 x 60 x 0.5 = 6 power (if you manage to not get knocked back at least).

Overall I don't really consider these power bonuses so significant that they're broken or "op". You need 11 charge attacks to get back your investment cost of 90 power. If you take into consideration the void power after their death (90% back) you still need at least 2 charge attacks to gain power. For thugs it's similar, you either need to destroy 6x50 power units with a Thug to gain back its original cost or kill at least 1 unit to gain a power advantage. Since Thugs are S units and not swift this isn't that easy. And then you're still down ~ 50/80 power since Void restores slower.

I do find Strikers useful and they're way more fun to use than Sunstriders. They fit the Aggression theme of Fire very well and their general performance is okay. Only thing that really bothers me is their high cost and the fact that they can be knocked back. This is especially annoying on units like Dreadchargers or Nomads. And that they can be killed by an Eruption upon spawn.

While you think undead army has a broken OP mechanic i think getting power from anything other than wells or void (or energy parasites) is broken and stupid. A powerplus of 10 is already quite an advantage in early T1 and can be decisive in a match with players of the same skilllevel. Now luckily nobody plays striker because it's a very expensive small melee unit, otherwise it could get OP really quick like Radical said. When i play shadow vs fire thugs already add enough paranoia off losing eventhough i'm even...

Edited by SunWu II.

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