Poll: Future Loot Lists

[MrXLink]

Greetings, Skylords!

I have been having a look at Allcards and the Wiki and received many questions from you regarding the exact loot lists (list of which card upgrade drops on which map) for PvE maps. A lot of you want to know which cards drop where and whether we can determine it as such to put the correct information into the Allcards/Wiki systems. Now, since we are not working on loot yet we do not exactly know what drops where. However, we are all quite positive about the fact that loot is distributed through the server, which means we can most likely find and alter the loot lists. 

This means that (if we end up being able to do so, which is likely) we will add Amii upgrades to PvE maps and we will be able to figure out the exact loot lists at some point in the future. Now Nullpointer and I have been thinking, since we can edit loot lists, why not mix up the loot list and assign upgrades elsewhere to give a new, fresh perspective on playing for upgrades? It can help us make unpopular PvE maps more popular, and so on. U1 would still drop at standard, U2 at advanced, and U3 at expert. There are four things we can do with this...

• Keep the original loot list
• Randomly create a new loot list
• Create a new loot list themed around the map to the extent we can (i.e. Lost Warlord B in Empire)
• Create a new loot list focused on distributing popularity amongst maps for a better player-to-map balance in PvE

Now I want to hear the voices of you, the community, to help us decide on what to do with this! This is your chance for some possible future development input, so vote for your favourite option(s), what would you like to see happening to the loot list? You can vote for multiple options.

On a side note, yes I have heard your suggestions regarding adding Amii upgrades to rPvE. However, since rPvE is so highly spammable and potentially harder to add upgrades into, we are likely stepping away from that idea. PvE is for upgrades, rPvE will be the main way of grinding for gold, that is the plan I currently have in mind.

Thanks a lot for your feedback, skylords! I value your activity, hype and contribution a lot, you are all fabulous gentlefolk.

[Chimerae]

I would vote for the third option. It will encourage players to play more different maps, rather than the most popular ones.

[bobfrog]

what about upgrade rotation? eg if masterarchers U3 is on a map i really hate, then i could just wait a few days and try to get it on another map

example;

map1: cards a, b, c, d

map2: cards e, f, g, h

map3: cards i, j, k, l

the next day:

map1: cards l, a, b, c

map2: cards d, e, f, g

map3: cards h, i, j, k

 

with ~500 cards and ~25 maps it would be ~3 weeks per card. might be a little bit long, so maybe 2 rotations per day.

[MrXLink]

This would remove the reason for people to play certain PvE maps and just allow them to wait for their upgrades to drop for a specific map they can easily complete. Would also encourage grinding one specific map for a specific upgrade with a high disenchant value for grinding, which is not necessarily what we want. Upgrade placement was a good way to get people to play more parts of the campaigns, which is something I'd like to keep.

[SilenceKiller99]

I would make a mix for:

• Create a new loot list themed around the map to the extent we can (i.e. Lost Warlord B in Empire)
• Create a new loot list focused on distributing popularity amongst maps for a better player-to-map balance in PvE

So really obvious cards you would put in the map they are so obvious for. But divide cards who not belong in that group but are often used in PvP into all the other maps.

[Strek0za]

I like the old one, but the third one seems to be the best option.

[Azta]

Themed sounds good to me

[veryhasted]

Themed seems like a really good idea. Would also make more sense if you get a upgrade that fits the theme of that map that you got it in

[tbpeti]

Upgrade placement was a good way to get people to play more parts of the campaigns, which is something I'd like to keep.

Definitely a good thinking, and in my opinion this thought should take priority if you can and want to manipulate the loot-system.

On the other hand I also would like to see a reward-system where the harder maps are rewarded better, and here I mean i.e. the Behind Enemy Lines was one of the hardest (if not the hardest) 1p map. Giving out better rewards for these maps would fit the concept of rewarding the better players (and here i don't mean that the ones that are deeper in the tree should give better upgrades, but the ones that really makes people sweat while they're doing it).

Also about the loot on the 12p maps, well, they were quite the mess... If the leader took them all (or didn't make a dice-roll for them) or simply used the random distribution and the one who got it by random did not turn them into tokens the rest of the players were totally screwed and nobody could do anything about it... Simply getting 4 card-upgrades for 12 players is just cruel. My advice would be to move the card-upgrades from the Ascension and the PtD and replace these upgrades with a high, but reasonable amount of tokens (with a higher rate compared to the rPvE for rewarding the players to be able to come together and beat the 3 maps). This probably would make people to still want to play these maps, but the distribution wouldn't be random.

P.s.: i loved the 12-p maps, especially ascension because it was a quite hard map either - even with a good strategy, to be able to solo the map (well, with 3 players alltogether) needed indeed both skill and luck.

Edited December 10, 2015 by tbpeti

[MrXLink]

@tbpeti I definitely see your point here. Point remains that preferably rPvE should have that purpose to make that game mode unique in that regard. Your idea can be compromised though, by slightly increasing gold rewards for said maps and making the upgrades in 12p maps also available in other maps. This would mean we are dragging attention away from 12p maps, but not as much as to change them completely into a map with the only rewards being those you can obtain through farming rPvE as well. What would you think of that solution?

[SilenceKiller99]

The problem is that 4 upgrade cards have to be divided over 12 players? Solution: give them 12 upgrade cards to divide over 12 players... And just random give 1 to every player...

[Ultrakool]

In  this process of distributing upgrades we should also keep the NPE(new player experience) in mind. That means, as far as possible, you should be able to get upgrades for common cards( especially F2P cards) in the first few maps that you (can) play. That means in Introduction, Bad Harvest, Introduction to Twilight, Siege of Hope, etc. By doing this, the new player will less likely be frustrated in not getting any upgrades he can use, which would be the case if there was a rotation etc. In that regard, I don't think the final option should apply to commons or at the very least F2P cards.

[MrXLink]

The problem is that 4 upgrade cards have to be divided over 12 players? Solution: give them 12 upgrade cards to divide over 12 players... And just random give 1 to every player...

Considering the UI only has up to 4 slots for loot distribution I consider that to be quite a tough aspect to improve on.

In  this process of distributing upgrades we should also keep the NPE(new player experience) in mind. That means, as far as possible, you should be able to get upgrades for common cards( especially F2P cards) in the first few maps that you (can) play. That means in Introduction, Bad Harvest, Introduction to Twilight, Siege of Hope, etc. By doing this, the new player will less likely be frustrated in not getting any upgrades he can use, which would be the case if there was a rotation etc. In that regard, I don't think the final option should apply to commons or at the very least F2P cards.

I agree completely.

[Loptous]

I like to just have it the way it used to be, it was fun that way to me but, I just prefer Battleforge vanilla right now.

[Ladadoos]

I would make a mix for:

• Create a new loot list themed around the map to the extent we can (i.e. Lost Warlord B in Empire)
• Create a new loot list focused on distributing popularity amongst maps for a better player-to-map balance in PvE

In  this process of distributing upgrades we should also keep the NPE(new player experience) in mind. That means, as far as possible, you should be able to get upgrades for common cards( especially F2P cards) in the first few maps that you (can) play. That means in Introduction, Bad Harvest, Introduction to Twilight, Siege of Hope, etc. By doing this, the new player will less likely be frustrated in not getting any upgrades he can use, which would be the case if there was a rotation etc. In that regard, I don't think the final option should apply to commons or at the very least F2P cards.

This sounds like the best of both worlds to me. Eventhough this is not an option, I am currently voting for a mix of these 3. They are in order of importance, meaning that #1 has a higher priority than #3.

1. Create a new loot list focused on providing basic/essential upgrades to new players in the first few maps.
2. Create a new loot list focused on distributing popularity amongst maps for a better player-to-map balance in PvE. 
3. Create a new loot list themed around the map to the extent we can (i.e. Lost Warlord B in Empire) .

 

Edited December 10, 2015 by Ladadoos

[Kaliber84]

This would remove the reason for people to play certain PvE maps and just allow them to wait for their upgrades to drop for a specific map they can easily complete. Would also encourage grinding one specific map for a specific upgrade with a high disenchant value for grinding, which is not necessarily what we want. Upgrade placement was a good way to get people to play more parts of the campaigns, which is something I'd like to keep.

I'm also not a fan of the rotation idea for the same reasons already brought up. But on the other hand it was pretty annoying to have to play one map over and over again, just because you didn't receive the upgrade you needed. I propose alternative solutions for that problem.

1. If a player gets an upgrade on a specific map, he won't be able to get the same upgrade again for a fixed amount of time (maybe for a day, maybe the whole week).
   That way one would still need to play a map several times but now with each time it gets more likely to drop the upgrade needed.
2. Make the rotation times really long and except the first few maps from the rotation (see Ultrakools comment on why). If the loot list randomly changes every month or so a player wouldn't wait for an upgrade he wants or needs but can also postpone it if he really hates the map. Disadvantage would be that by randomizing the loot list every now and then will probably lead to varying, uneven distributions of player-to-map-ratios.

I prefer my first suggestion.

On the other hand I also would like to see a reward-system where the harder maps are rewarded better, and here I mean i.e. the Behind Enemy Lines was one of the hardest (if not the hardest) 1p map. Giving out better rewards for these maps would fit the concept of rewarding the better players (and here i don't mean that the ones that are deeper in the tree should give better upgrades, but the ones that really makes people sweat while they're doing it).

Also about the loot on the 12p maps, well, they were quite the mess... If the leader took them all (or didn't make a dice-roll for them) or simply used the random distribution and the one who got it by random did not turn them into tokens the rest of the players were totally screwed and nobody could do anything about it... Simply getting 4 card-upgrades for 12 players is just cruel. My advice would be to move the card-upgrades from the Ascension and the PtD and replace these upgrades with a high, but reasonable amount of tokens (with a higher rate compared to the rPvE for rewarding the players to be able to come together and beat the 3 maps). This probably would make people to still want to play these maps, but the distribution wouldn't be random.

I don't know what you mean by having "better" rewards for beating harder maps. If you mean by "better", upgrades for frequently used cards (e.g. Shaman, Dreadnaught, etc.) then I think it is a nice idea. But this shouldn't be the top priority IMO. Just a nice little extra.

The idea of giving tokens (or gold) instead of upgrades for 12-player-maps would really devalue playing them for me. If I wanted an upgrade on a 12-player-map during the old BF I would only grind tokens if I didn't get it after 3-4 unlucky runs or so. Now that would force me to either play a different map or to grind gold/tokens again but on the 12-player-map. Not much of an improvement for me.

@tbpeti I definitely see your point here. Point remains that preferably rPvE should have that purpose to make that game mode unique in that regard. Your idea can be compromised though, by slightly increasing gold rewards for said maps and making the upgrades in 12p maps also available in other maps. This would mean we are dragging attention away from 12p maps, but not as much as to change them completely into a map with the only rewards being those you can obtain through farming rPvE as well. What would you think of that solution?

I don't see a reason to play 12-player-maps upgradewise then anymore. If the amount of upgrades dropped there would be significantly decreased to something like 6-8 upgrades (so one has a 4/6 or 4/8 chance for the right one to drop) then it might still be worthwile. I'd prefer the possibility to give more upgrades away though as this doesn't solve the problem of not getting the upgrade needed even if it drops because somebody else takes it.

Considering the UI only has up to 4 slots for loot distribution I consider that to be quite a tough aspect to improve on.

I agree completely.

@MrXLink Do you think it might be possible for the loot list to drop each of the 4 upgrades 3 times? Maybe by randomizing it from the beginning it would also be possible to give away 12 upgrades. Like skipping the loot distribution screen (or leaving only the individual upgrade there) and just adding the upgrade directly.

[SilenceKiller99]

I'm also not a fan of the rotation idea for the same reasons already brought up. But on the other hand it was pretty annoying to have to play one map over and over again, just because you didn't receive the upgrade you needed. I propose alternative solutions for that problem.

1. If a player gets an upgrade on a specific map, he won't be able to get the same upgrade again for a fixed amount of time (maybe for a day, maybe the whole week).
   That way one would still need to play a map several times but now with each time it gets more likely to drop the upgrade needed.

Is it even possible to set such a time for a card not to drop, also specific for a player. If this is possible, this is by far the best idea I have read in this thread.

@MrXLink Do you think it might be possible for the loot list to drop each of the 4 upgrades 3 times? Maybe by randomizing it from the beginning it would also be possible to give away 12 upgrades. Like skipping the loot distribution screen (or leaving only the individual upgrade there) and just adding the upgrade directly.

I also like this idea. Eventhough it doesn't fix the whole problem, it solves a big part of it.

[MrXLink]

@MrXLink Do you think it might be possible for the loot list to drop each of the 4 upgrades 3 times? Maybe by randomizing it from the beginning it would also be possible to give away 12 upgrades. Like skipping the loot distribution screen (or leaving only the individual upgrade there) and just adding the upgrade directly.

We won't know until we start working on the loot system. Purely looking at the UI and the distribution system EA seems to have used, displayed loot has a maximum of 4 items, perhaps the loot distribution system has this too. Remember that the UI also shows who receives which loot, which will be very confusing if we cannot alter this (which is actually quite likely). We will have to wait and see what the possibilities for 12p loot distribution are before I can discuss this any further. Feel free to leave your suggestions though.

[Demiron]

Original all the way. Dont fix whats not broken.

[Ladadoos]

Original all the way. Dont fix whats not broken.

That doesn't mean that there is no room for improvement...

[Demiron]

That doesn't mean that there is no room for improvement...

Improvements, yes. Creating a whole other loot table is something else....

[MephistoRoss]

Since some tweaks to the upgrade distribution system were suggested here, I would like to point out this thread in which more interesting suggestions were made: http://forum.bfreborn.com/index.php?/topic/840-upgrades-distribution-tweak/

[tbpeti]

I don't know what you mean by having "better" rewards for beating harder maps. If you mean by "better", upgrades for frequently used cards (e.g. Shaman, Dreadnaught, etc.) then I think it is a nice idea. But this shouldn't be the top priority IMO. Just a nice little extra.

The idea of giving tokens (or gold) instead of upgrades for 12-player-maps would really devalue playing them for me. If I wanted an upgrade on a 12-player-map during the old BF I would only grind tokens if I didn't get it after 3-4 unlucky runs or so. Now that would force me to either play a different map or to grind gold/tokens again but on the 12-player-map. Not much of an improvement for me.

About "better" rewards i thought higher rarity, 'cause in the end it will only come down to the tokens you earn from them and this is mostly in line with the new player experience, what @Ultrakool mentioned.

There were also specific maps to farm, i.e. PtD - if someone wouldn't know, the PtD gave more tokens compared to a lvl 9 rPvE and it was faster and easier - the only reasons why people played battlegrounds were 5 things:
 1. the points in the end of the month
 2. the enjoyment of the random maps
 3. the token-boost on new accounts, which didn't get to the 12p maps
 4. it wasn't too likely to have enough players to make the map sufficiently
 5. they didn't know about the fact what i wrote just before (about the more token-drop)

@tbpeti I definitely see your point here. Point remains that preferably rPvE should have that purpose to make that game mode unique in that regard. Your idea can be compromised though, by slightly increasing gold rewards for said maps and making the upgrades in 12p maps also available in other maps. This would mean we are dragging attention away from 12p maps, but not as much as to change them completely into a map with the only rewards being those you can obtain through farming rPvE as well. What would you think of that solution?

I'm also coming from the UI and from my memories:

 - the leader could decide before starting how he wants the loot distribution (random, or assigned)
 - after picking assigned he could assign it to anyone within the group, who decided what to do with it: keep or turn into tokens (if he chose the 2nd version, all the group members got the tokens, but if he chose the first, it was only him who got the rewards)
 - unfortunately it seems like my idea backfired: i start to think that except a few of us everyone thinks of these maps as nuisance and only wanna play them for the rewards and when they get the rewards they would leave these maps forever (not talking about the pvp players, but the pve players here, who keeps getting back to a very few specific maps, i.e. Bad Harvest... And this is exactly what i'm afraid of. I wanted to find something that makes people want to play these maps more and not less because if the same amount of people left then like noone will play them...

@MrXLink Do you think it might be possible for the loot list to drop each of the 4 upgrades 3 times? Maybe by randomizing it from the beginning it would also be possible to give away 12 upgrades. Like skipping the loot distribution screen (or leaving only the individual upgrade there) and just adding the upgrade directly.

Right now I also think this would be the best case, but even if it is possible to do, i'm pretty sure messing with it and implementing will give a headache to the programmers.  My only concerns are that this would make the 12p maps less popular 'cause of the higher droprate...

After thinking so much about it, maybe the best choice for these maps would be to make 1 loot-list for the first period and an other when there are less active players for the sake of those who start to play the game later. I know it's only theory and thinking ahead into the future, but maybe leaving the whole lootlist as it was would be the best for now and remodeling/reworking it later when we'll have a given number of players and fresh statistics about the popularity of the maps would be the best choice.

Edited December 13, 2015 by tbpeti

[Ultrakool]

 

 - unfortunately it seems like my idea backfired: i start to think that except a few of us everyone thinks of these maps as nuisance and only wanna play them for the rewards and when they get the rewards they would leave these maps forever (not talking about the pvp players, but the pve players here, who keeps getting back to a very few specific maps, i.e. Bad Harvest... And this is exactly what i'm afraid of. I wanted to find something that makes people want to play these maps more and not less because if the same amount of people left then like noone will play them...

 

How about increase the PVE XP reward for these maps for map of the month, or increase the place numbers that gets this reward, i.e.: normally 1-3 place gets reward, then for "not so popular" maps 1-10 place gets rewards for that map for that month?  This will help increase the popularity of that map. That being said though, everyone will probably play in their own "speed run groups", still leaving the average player with difficulties finding a match.

 

On the Topic of Speedruns, will speed run decks be automatically hidden or will you still need to purchase these "elements" to keep the deck hidden? This was obviously a ploy by EA to make money with and I think speed run decks should be automatically hidden without having to fork out BFP for it...

Edited December 13, 2015 by Ultrakool

[MephistoRoss]

There were also specific maps to farm, i.e. PtD - if someone wouldn't know, the PtD gave more tokens compared to a lvl 9 rPvE and it was faster and easier - the only reasons why people played battlegrounds were 5 things:

You are missing the fact that you would need to have bought those two temporary elements so that you could convert discarded upgrades to tokens in normal PvE maps. The biggest reason Battlegrounds were so popular was that you wouldnt need the elements there but you always would get tokens.

And if someone had those elements and wanted to earn tokens most efficiently, mostly King of the Giant and The Insane god were solo'ed because they would give you the best playtime/token ratio (=many rare/ultra rare upgrades in the loot list of that map).

PtD however was popular for the gold/XP rewards.