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Community update #16 - December 18th


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17 minutes ago, Demiron said:

Since you've brought it up let's stick with your example card, Infect. A highly sought after, ultra rare card that's always been expensive and I guess out of reach for some players, especially newcomers. It definitely shines in the right deck and makes life easier. But is it really a necessity? Not to sound like a broken record but I still believe that no ultra rare card is needed to finish the game (on any difficulty). I view it as some kind of a luxury item. Something to work towards to. High-end ultra rares and especially rares will not fill that role anymore. I understand why you ultimately decided to go with it but I still don't like that you've sacrificed this aspect in return.

There is a difference between settling with a working strategy, or using the strategy that is fun for you. If all the cards you enjoy playing or want to play with are locked behind either a lottery system or an extremely high grind wall, then that will detract from the experience overall for new players. I don't really think we have the luxury of that for the most part either, being a niche game and all.

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1 hour ago, Kubik said:

If you think balancing cards is easier solution, why not apply for "[Open] Balance Developer" position, to try out for yourself?

I never said that it's an easy solution. I do think however that it's the better solution, long term.

Besides, why do I feel this hostility towards me? I wasn't vulgar or aggressive, I am merely giving feedback, based on my experience. I appreciated the work, effort and dedication that the team has put in, some of it I like and some of it I don't. I was asked on multiple occasions and multiple social platforms by you, the developers to give my feedback on what would make the game better and here I am, giving my honest opinion.

I am no developer so it's a little bit unfair to ask me to apply for something I know very little about. But you don't need to be a musician to judge a concert or a soccer player to judge a soccer game.

I could go with the crowd and tell you that everything's perfect but that wouldn't be honest or too constructive now, would it?

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🤔 what "hostility"?

I personally do not like the reforging, so I do not need to hear how people like it.

Position of "Balance Developer" does not require any technical knowledge, and usually applicants get to try it before their application is being processed.
It just need crazy amount of time per card. And there are 1000s of cards.

I did not ask about position of designer that have more to do with re-balancing the cards. I would say these positions also not require highly technical knowledge (depending on how you categorize math).

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But you don't need to be a musician to judge a concert or a soccer player to judge a soccer game.

I hope it will not sound aggressive to you (again), but how you can judge a concert if you are not musician? All concerts I heard in television was just some people doing noise, no useful information, no fun, so I have no clue why would anyone want to watch that.
And to be honest I feel the same about any soccer game, you get score, so you know who win, what else would you want to judge one it?

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17 hours ago, Majora said:

Please let us know if you liked the behind the scenes of the Advanced Filtering, and if you are interested in something similair on Reforging. 

Hey @Majora,

 

I love the Advanced Filtering file, it makes everything a lot easier. Quality of life improvment.

Is there a way to sort for faction/edition too?

Would love to see something similar for Reforging too.

Keep up the good work.

 

Cheers, 

Patrick

 

 

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I see where Demiron comes from with his observations regarding the forging system.

I played BF when it first launched and had 10's of thousands of BFPs because of buying cheap retail packs.  Cases of them actually.  I had every card I wanted and many of them.  So many that I had a huge shop selling C and UC for gold so new players could make complete decks.  I would have LOOOOOOOOOOOVED the forge system then.  But what would have happened?  I'd probably have stopped selling my C and UC for gold and put them in the forge.  This would make it harder for a new player to have a dependable path to solid decks.  Instead they would be entirely at the mercy of rng and grind.

 

Now I'm back to the game maybe six weeks.  I've been buying commons on the AH to fill out my decks and saving toward more expensive cards that I enjoy playing with.  The prices for those things have now doubled or tripled or are simply not available.  The hill new players have to climb just got much steeper.  If I'd been playing for a year or more I would be ecstatic.  A new system that lets me use all my unwanted cards with potential to get something better or different.


Honestly with how many cards are in the game the time it would take for a new player to have 4< of a card to begin forging is insane.  

 

Another observation of mine is that the color output does not make sense.  If I put in shadow x3 and fire x1 it would make sense for the output to show 75% shadow and 25% fire chance of the forged card.  Currently it is 25%, 25%, 25%, and 25%.  If I put shadow x4 then it shows 100% shadow output.

 

Appreciate all the effort that went into this as I think it is brilliant.  Hope we can find a way to balance the newer player's experience though.  It just got much harder to get cards for them.

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37 minutes ago, Soy said:

Another observation of mine is that the color output does not make sense.  If I put in shadow x3 and fire x1 it would make sense for the output to show 75% shadow and 25% fire chance of the forged card.  Currently it is 25%, 25%, 25%, and 25%.  If I put shadow x4 then it shows 100% shadow output.

🤣 this weirdness is intended, but do not ask me why I was given some explanation I did not understand.

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4 hours ago, Demiron said:

I never said that it's an easy solution. I do think however that it's the better solution, long term.

Besides, why do I feel this hostility towards me? I wasn't vulgar or aggressive, I am merely giving feedback, based on my experience. I appreciated the work, effort and dedication that the team has put in, some of it I like and some of it I don't. I was asked on multiple occasions and multiple social platforms by you, the developers to give my feedback on what would make the game better and here I am, giving my honest opinion.

I am no developer so it's a little bit unfair to ask me to apply for something I know very little about. But you don't need to be a musician to judge a concert or a soccer player to judge a soccer game.

I could go with the crowd and tell you that everything's perfect but that wouldn't be honest or too constructive now, would it?

Hello Demiron,

First, I'd like to thank you for your feedback on the Reforging issue which I think you have articulated well. As the person principally behind the system's design (with many others also helping) I am very anxious to see how things turn out. We have built-in the ability to apply changes quickly and are closely monitoring card price points to determine if we need to make changes.

Our intended goals with Reforging were many and varied, but much major goal was to stabilize the economy long term. Prior to this, commons were mostly worthless, most uncommons were driving towards 3 bfp, and our major markers for rares had all dropped hundreds of bfp over only a few month period. This was while ultra-rares were on a steady increase as the only source of value left in an economy which was built with no inflation check. 

Right now Reforging has been used over 250,000 times, which is unsurprisingly bringing a lot of chaos to the market as many people who have never or very rarely interacted with trading have begun to pour cards into the Auction House. I understand things seem dire now, but I really want to wait a week or two after the initial frenzy dies down and everyone's excess supply is burnt up (and likely also everyone isn't dumping onto the market simultaneously) before making definite judgements. Previously very expensive Ultra-rares are not the only price point we follow but also average prices of all rarities.

It is possible that despite carefully toning the system to be bfp negative that we still missed the mark, and I think initial impressions leads me to think we should have made the gap between uncommon and rare larger. We will be checking the data we have and if that continues to hold we will adjust quickly. Additionally, future updates plan to add minor and major bfp sinks which should help reinflate any prices we deinflated too substantially. 

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The game NEEDS a way to get rid of excess cards. There is no way around it. People were sitting on hundreds, in some cases thousands, of Cs and UCs. This was also becoming an issue for the server. It was dead-weight too because their overbearing supply made their economical value so low that they weren't even worth selling. Meanwhile BFP were and still are constantly pouring into the game endlessly. This lead to inflation. A fixed price on boosters merely slowed it down. But it did not stop it at all, as people originally hoped it would. Most cards became worthless while the majority of the value was focused on a few top tiers. When opening boosters you basically always bled BFP unless you hit a jackpot worth multiple boosters. The top tiers became the magnet for the inflating BFP. We had a very low floor and a very high ceiling with less and less inbetween.

Card reforging tackles all of these issues at once. It serves as a card drain and also as an indirect BFP drain, since cards are merely different manifestation of BFP. They are generated from boosters after all, which are generated from spending BFP.

The "hard work" isn't going anywhere, it's getting readjusted. Ideally we will eventually see a state where every card has inherent value as reforging material, raising the floor. This also means that whenever a card drops too low in value, it immediately becomes an attractive purchase if only to reforge. The flipside is also true. When Rs and URs start increasing in price too much, it will eventually become worthwhile to purchase preceding rarities to forge into them. This ties all cards together, creating a completely new, interwoven economy.

But the impact of reforging is greatly exaggerated right now. People went on a reforging frenzy after the patch. All the Cs and UCs that were gathering dust were getting funneled into Rs and URs. People also rushed to participate in the economy more. This lead to a drastic increase in supply but not enough demand to soak it up (yet). It will take some time for the market to adjust and reach a new equilibrium.

And a second point, that isn't being considered, is the fact that we have a 100 BFP price reduction on boosters for one month. This will also drive market prices down across the board. Consequently they will increase again in mid-January, when the discount gets removed. We already know this from release.

The biggest hurdle for the market settling in again is, aside from the current discount, the player numbers. A smaller amount of player simply means the process will take longer.

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4 hours ago, Cocofang said:

The game NEEDS a way to get rid of excess cards. There is no way around it. People were sitting on hundreds, in some cases thousands, of Cs and UCs. This was also becoming an issue for the server. It was dead-weight too because their overbearing supply made their economical value so low that they weren't even worth selling. Meanwhile BFP were and still are constantly pouring into the game endlessly. This lead to inflation. A fixed price on boosters merely slowed it down. But it did not stop it at all, as people originally hoped it would. Most cards became worthless while the majority of the value was focused on a few top tiers. When opening boosters you basically always bled BFP unless you hit a jackpot worth multiple boosters. The top tiers became the magnet for the inflating BFP. We had a very low floor and a very high ceiling with less and less inbetween.

Card reforging tackles all of these issues at once. It serves as a card drain and also as an indirect BFP drain, since cards are merely different manifestation of BFP. They are generated from boosters after all, which are generated from spending BFP.

The "hard work" isn't going anywhere, it's getting readjusted. Ideally we will eventually see a state where every card has inherent value as reforging material, raising the floor. This also means that whenever a card drops too low in value, it immediately becomes an attractive purchase if only to reforge. The flipside is also true. When Rs and URs start increasing in price too much, it will eventually become worthwhile to purchase preceding rarities to forge into them. This ties all cards together, creating a completely new, interwoven economy.

But the impact of reforging is greatly exaggerated right now. People went on a reforging frenzy after the patch. All the Cs and UCs that were gathering dust were getting funneled into Rs and URs. People also rushed to participate in the economy more. This lead to a drastic increase in supply but not enough demand to soak it up (yet). It will take some time for the market to adjust and reach a new equilibrium.

And a second point, that isn't being considered, is the fact that we have a 100 BFP price reduction on boosters for one month. This will also drive market prices down across the board. Consequently they will increase again in mid-January, when the discount gets removed. We already know this from release.

The biggest hurdle for the market settling in again is, aside from the current discount, the player numbers. A smaller amount of player simply means the process will take longer.

While much of this may be true.  We'll have to see in time.  The rising of the floor is crushing for new players.  If those few early, easily obtainable boosters don't give a useful or expensive UR then you are stuck longterm grinding hard.

 

Seems like most of the changes are being looked at through the lens of players who already are established in the game.  That is not going to promote growth.

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1 hour ago, Soy said:

Seems like most of the changes are being looked at through the lens of players who already are established in the game.  That is not going to promote growth.

There are a large amount of new achievements and other such systems coming up meant to deal with the new player experience. But, I also do not think this is true. If prices are increased for commons and uncommons, which is one of our goals, then new players can sell an excess or unwanted cards of these rarities and buy others instead. This should encourage them to engage in the market earlier and more frequently. Or so we hope. It is really hard to judge how things pan out because of the absolute number of reforges that occurred in only a 24 hour period. Even if we had made reforging 50% less efficient, with 250k total reforges the economy still would have been sent in turmoil. 

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10 hours ago, Soy said:

The prices for those things have now doubled or tripled or are simply not available. 

Price of Enlightenment halved. Infect is on 2/3 of it's price. Many expensive ultrarare XLs decreased from 1000-2000 to under 800. While common and uncommon cards are less accessible now, you can still get them easily from boosters, and many cards hidden behind inflation now become more and more accessible. I think reforge system is doing good in going for "dream" deck.

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1 hour ago, Dallarian said:

Price of Enlightenment halved. Infect is on 2/3 of it's price. Many expensive ultrarare XLs decreased from 1000-2000 to under 800. While common and uncommon cards are less accessible now, you can still get them easily from boosters, and many cards hidden behind inflation now become more and more accessible. I think reforge system is doing good in going for "dream" deck.

The common and uncommon are what the new players go for right away as the "dream" cards take a bit of grinding to afford.  I like the forging system.  However as a new player you do not get enough cards to be able to take advantage of it for quite a bit of time.

 

If I could make a suggestion.  Have someone start a new account and log time played and how long it took to get enough cards to forge and how quickly they progress in acquiring cards?

Edited by Soy
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16 minutes ago, Soy said:

The common and uncommon are what the new players go for right away as the "dream" cards take a bit of grinding to afford.  I like the forging system.  However as a new player you do not get enough cards to be able to take advantage of it for quite a bit of time.

If I could make a suggestion.  Have someone start a new account and log time played and how long it took to get enough cards to forge and how quickly they progress in acquiring cards?

I mean, sure. Forging is not something you are meant to do when you don't even have excess cards. However the initial progression didn't really change. You have your dailies, your boost, your booster discount and your achievements just like before.

But forging provides a passive benefit to new players by making cards they get have innate value and by putting a dampener on UR inflation and putting even the top tier cards within their reach. For this to fully materialize the economy (and of course the people participating) will have to adjust first. Hopefully in a way that is long term beneficial for everyone.

And like previously mentioned, it's hardly possible to take the current prices at face value. Because of the sudden oversupply and the booster discount.

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18 hours ago, Kubik said:

Position of "Balance Developer" does not require any technical knowledge, and usually applicants get to try it before their application is being processed.
It just need crazy amount of time per card. And there are 1000s of cards.

I did not ask about position of designer that have more to do with re-balancing the cards. I would say these positions also not require highly technical knowledge (depending on how you categorize math).

Due to lockdowns, crazy amount of time I might have in the future. I might take your advice and give it a go, thanks!

And sorry for overreacting, you are or were in no way aggressive, I just felt like I was being a target for trying to be objective (or, in fact, brutally honest 🤣) about the patch. Whoops!

13 hours ago, WindHunter said:

Hello Demiron,

First, I'd like to thank you for your feedback on the Reforging issue which I think you have articulated well. As the person principally behind the system's design (with many others also helping) I am very anxious to see how things turn out. We have built-in the ability to apply changes quickly and are closely monitoring card price points to determine if we need to make changes.

Our intended goals with Reforging were many and varied, but much major goal was to stabilize the economy long term. Prior to this, commons were mostly worthless, most uncommons were driving towards 3 bfp, and our major markers for rares had all dropped hundreds of bfp over only a few month period. This was while ultra-rares were on a steady increase as the only source of value left in an economy which was built with no inflation check. 

Right now Reforging has been used over 250,000 times, which is unsurprisingly bringing a lot of chaos to the market as many people who have never or very rarely interacted with trading have begun to pour cards into the Auction House. I understand things seem dire now, but I really want to wait a week or two after the initial frenzy dies down and everyone's excess supply is burnt up (and likely also everyone isn't dumping onto the market simultaneously) before making definite judgements. Previously very expensive Ultra-rares are not the only price point we follow but also average prices of all rarities.

It is possible that despite carefully toning the system to be bfp negative that we still missed the mark, and I think initial impressions leads me to think we should have made the gap between uncommon and rare larger. We will be checking the data we have and if that continues to hold we will adjust quickly. Additionally, future updates plan to add minor and major bfp sinks which should help reinflate any prices we deinflated too substantially. 

Thank you for your post.

I don"t want to judge too soon so I guess we"ll have to wait and see how things turn out. I trust the dev team and if they and the data they monitor say it"s a working system then I"ll have no problem with it. So far everything has worked out pretty well, I"d say. Let"s see if it stays that way

20 hours ago, WatcherOfSky said:

There is a difference between settling with a working strategy, or using the strategy that is fun for you. If all the cards you enjoy playing or want to play with are locked behind either a lottery system or an extremely high grind wall, then that will detract from the experience overall for new players. I don't really think we have the luxury of that for the most part either, being a niche game and all.

I"m sure I represent the minority here but I actually like getting new cards the hard way. If everything is within reach from the getgo it doesnt feel rewarding one bit when you get that sexy new Infect or Harvester or whatever. I might be exaggerating or even wrong about everything I"ve said so far though. Guess we"ll have to wait and see how things turn out.

Edited by Demiron
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30 minutes ago, Demiron said:

And sorry for overreacting, you are or were in no way aggressive, I just felt like I was being a target for trying to be objective (or, in fact, brutally honest 🤣) about the patch. Whoops!

Hey Demiron,

Just to make sure; we do really appreciated constructive feedback. Please never hesitate to let us know, I don't add the sentence to the community update just for show. And it greatly helps if you combine what you like and don't like, so we can get a better view of where your thoughts are coming from. Just saying ''This sucks'' is not very helpful, but feedback like yours is. 

 

As for the general topic (not aimed at you specifically); I think there is a misunderstanding about the reforging feature and our intend for new players. We had new players in mind when adding the system, but not in the sense of them specifically using it. Of course new players will have less spare cards laying around, but the fact that the main player base is using reforging should adjust the market to a more healthy point for new players.

As mentioned a couple of times already, inflation is a real issue. If BFP are only added to the game, with no way of them to leave, prices will only rise and keep rising. Although the market is currently in turmoil, we expect it to stabilize after the reforge hype and the booster discounts are gone. 

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On 12/20/2021 at 3:47 AM, Demiron said:

Thank you for your post.

I don"t want to judge too soon so I guess we"ll have to wait and see how things turn out. I trust the dev team and if they and the data they monitor say it"s a working system then I"ll have no problem with it. So far everything has worked out pretty well, I"d say. Let"s see if it stays that way

I"m sure I represent the minority here but I actually like getting new cards the hard way. If everything is within reach from the getgo it doesnt feel rewarding one bit when you get that sexy new Infect or Harvester or whatever. I might be exaggerating or even wrong about everything I"ve said so far though. Guess we"ll have to wait and see how things turn out.

Demiron,

As you might have seen, we have already applied a few changes to the Reforging formula. 

 

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44 minutes ago, Nagrach said:

Maybe I am missing something or I am rather dumb - but how can I access the advanced filtering inGame? My Inventory and even the marketplace doesn´t react to e.g. Promo=1 in the searchbar?

As for the rest : keep up the good work! 🙂

 

try "promo:1" 🙂

For values (health, attack, upgrade, charge, copies) you need to use "=", but for attributes (a.e. promo, flying) you need ":". Think of it as true/false for 1/0 rather than the number.

Edited by Mynoduesp
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1 minute ago, Kubik said:

@Nagrach do you think we can make it "somehow" more user friendly, before the UI rework?

I also noticed, that non English players, might not even read the English only document, so they might not be aware of this filtering at all, even thou it is in all 4 languages. 😞

The only issues I had so far was not knowing the exact keywords and the lack of intigration into the upgrades register in ones inventory. Anything else, I simply love. 

Examples for keywords:

'copies', 'copy' or 'count'

'charge' or 'charges'

 

Small possible "improvements":

It would be nice to be able to use 'true/false' and/or 't/f' additionaly to '1/0' for attributes.

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I´ve read the document but totally missed the difference between ":" and "=", so thanks for rescue me 😉

And to Kubik : I´m aware that the UI will change but within the document are Shots of a rather "evolved" UI (so the Inventory-Mask with more than the available three options) with no mention of an upcoming overhaul. Therefore I thought there has to be some hidden button/checkbox/... to activate the feature, espiacially since at the bottom of the document there is the little sentence "When will this feature go Live? This feature should be live alongside the Anniversary Patch on the 18th of December." 🙂

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