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1 hour ago, Alishmass said:

this feels like someone has a vendetta against the decomposer+BH

decomposer has uses in just a few maps as is mostly the case with many other cards like embalmers shrine+shadow phoenixes or mark of the keeper or manawing or nightguard (and quite a few more)

theyre all kinda broken and op if you look at them from a certain angle.

in my oponion these are just (smart)solutions to certain problems or sometimes workarounds 

for example in nighmare shard, the first camp only has melee units around it and they are numerous and strong and really hard to defeat (maybe impossible?) so lets use manawings to easily kill them all without any danger

or for example go play behind enemy lines with just nightguards for t1 and swap for twilight horros (not sure if thats their name) that the enemy cannot handle (by the way how are they considered t2 for nightguard to be able to swap them) and easily clear t2 and t3 and magically get t4 with amii and game over. you can also use phoenixes that never die because of embalmers shrine 

you get the idea.... some cards in some maps just do soooo well

so is the case with decomposer (though im not saying it should or shouldnt be rebalanced)

but i think Batariel is even worse than all of them.

since it is super op almost everywhere.

for example in rpve. it easily clears a base that another player would need to send 5-6 t4 units. you all know how it is, no need to explain. 

 

 

 

The issue for me is that there are no alternative strategies for this maps. You just go the noob way and spam WW. People think oh yeah there will be new strategies for those maps, but in fact there are just no other options right now.

Buffing unused stuff is the good decision, but doing it while nerfing the "OP" stuff just nullifies it.

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I'm quite shocked that an experienced player like you is writing nonsense like this. Do you really think all of this restrictions are going to solve the problem? I can assure you, it's not going

I think we have a problems with terms here. Some are speaking of speedrunning and some are speaking about speedrunning - but you mean complete different things. I would rather call the one speedr

Addressing the symptoms rather than the "disease" will not help in this case as @wanky points out above. Please ask yourself the question, why do people resort to these gold runs on BH? My answers to

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4 minutes ago, DieToPlay said:

The issue for me is that there are no alternative strategies for this maps. You just go the noob way and spam WW. People think oh yeah there will be new strategies for those maps, but in fact there are just no other options right now.

Of course there are strategies on BH without Decomposer.You are just unaware of them because...

- Decomposer it's the default and most effective strategy by far. 

- No strategies were perfected after the abuse of Decomposer really took off. 

> Buffing unused stuff is the good decision, but doing it while nerfing the "OP" stuff just nullifies it.

What? 

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1 minute ago, Mynoduesp said:

Of course there are strategies on BH without Decomposer.You are just unaware of them because...

- Decomposer it's the default and most effective strategy by far. 

- No strategies were perfected after the abuse of Decomposer really took off. 

> Buffing unused stuff is the good decision, but doing it while nerfing the "OP" stuff just nullifies it.

What? 

I said many times, MOST people don't want those changes and you kept telling me i'm wrong. Now you have facts in front of you, and I guess i'm still wrong.

There are just not enough valid options for new strategies to appear, but you can always prove me wrong, until then I will just disagree with you.

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4 minutes ago, DieToPlay said:

MOST people don't want those changes

I've not made a statemant about this in my reply...?

 

5 minutes ago, DieToPlay said:

you kept telling me i'm wrong

I disagree with you on a factual point. I'm telling you, removing the most efficient way leaves you with the second most efficient way. You're proclaming there are "no other options right now".

 

7 minutes ago, DieToPlay said:

There are just not enough valid options

That's just a banger on its own.

 

8 minutes ago, DieToPlay said:

but you can always prove me wrong

There's nothing to prove you wrong about. The argument of there being no stragety to fill its void is simply wrong. No doubt it wont be as efficient - but that's where the whole disagreement of meta evolution starts.

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7 hours ago, Mynoduesp said:

I've not made a statemant about this in my reply...?

 

I disagree with you on a factual point. I'm telling you, removing the most efficient way leaves you with the second most efficient way. You're proclaming there are "no other options right now".

 

That's just a banger on its own.

 

There's nothing to prove you wrong about. The argument of there being no stragety to fill its void is simply wrong. No doubt it wont be as efficient - but that's where the whole disagreement of meta evolution starts.

didnt you stopped playing this game? why do you care?


Skylords have the thing that 1 player can share his energy to another player. This makes this game unice, like many other staff it have in it. Sadly Decomposer is the ONLY way to share energy. If u remove a thing like this, Speedrunning would be chanched significant. In my opinion, this would be far too big an intervention to justify "it's OP". Maby think about changing reward system, that speedrunning is noth woth for doing it for Gold and XP would be a solution. Like this Speedrunners wound get mad, cause they to not care about gold and XP, they just hunting for fast times, and Casual players stop using it cause it not worth anymore. 
We already told many solution how the XP/Gold Rewarding system could look like, if this would be nerved.

 

/wanky

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6 hours ago, wanky said:

Skylords have the thing that 1 player can share his energy to another player. This makes this game unice, like many other staff it have in it. Sadly Decomposer is the ONLY way to share energy. If u remove a thing like this, Speedrunning would be chanched significant. In my opinion, this would be far too big an intervention to justify "it's OP". Maby think about changing reward system, that speedrunning is noth woth for doing it for Gold and XP would be a solution. Like this Speedrunners wound get mad, cause they to not care about gold and XP, they just hunting for fast times, and Casual players stop using it cause it not worth anymore. 
We already told many solution how the XP/Gold Rewarding system could look like, if this would be nerved.

Jep i posted myself some ideas on how to change the gold and xp rewarding system

I do not dislike the decomposer at it currently is i just have a kinda a problem with unique skill cards bound to a fraction if not only shadow would have a card with that effect i would be totaly fine same thing is for me enligthenment cause it is also bound to nature fraction. even if i am a nature shadow player. 

most of my ideas going into the direction to change these cards in a way that they turn itself to Neutral cards and getting removed from the fraction binding. but in those cases it problably would make them more powerfull. 
my first attempts were to change cost or tier requirement, but there is a hugh opposition against such changes cause speedrunning tactis would change and they may nolonger be able to beat existing records on maps. but on the otherhand it seems they are also the biggest opposition against it to make these cards neutral cause others may beat their records and the cards would get boosted in pve pvp as well and give the players to much freedom. 

for me is clear these cards need a rebalancing or change over the option of just removeing them from the game. but in a matter that the cards dosent getting changed to much. and there are ways to do it that have a effect but cost or tier of the cards itself remains untouched. even do this topic is about decomposer i add a few things about enlightenment as well:

Decomposer & Enlightenment:
- increase Card cooldown
- increase Card recharge

Decomposer:
- increase Building time (slow building)
- increase Cooldown between ability useage: 
currently in matters of seconds many units can be destroyed. but if the skill of the building gets a cooldown on its ability that may lets it shred every 1-10 sec 1 unit decreses its effectivness a bit but may not do much harm to speed just adding more micro management. but in non speed that brings a bit of a handycap to it.

the other thing that does boost the building and spell is to make them neutral so they can be used in every color combination which leads to more diversity in decks alldo makeing these cards more often to be a part of a deck but it gives many cards that can be currently seen in over 50% of all decks made by the playerbase (regrowth 4 example). 

Decomposer a change may be needed that more than only one may be builded but if its the the way of normal neutral it will get restricted to 1 builing per map which may also be a solution but may effect pvp 

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2 hours ago, Asraiel said:

 

I do not dislike the decomposer at it currently is i just have a kinda a problem with unique skill cards bound to a fraction if not only shadow would have a card with that effect i would be totaly fine same thing is for me enligthenment cause it is also bound to nature fraction. even if i am a nature shadow player. 
 

every faction have theyr unic typ of cards. f.e. Fire have the huge Dmg spells, nature the good healing speels, frost awsome CC speels and also good defenc buildings. also shadow have his cards, mainly playing around the void and self killing units. 

 

 

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22 hours ago, Alishmass said:

so is the case with decomposer (though im not saying it should or shouldnt be rebalanced)

but i think Batariel is even worse than all of them.

since it is super op almost everywhere.

for example in rpve. it easily clears a base that another player would need to send 5-6 t4 units. you all know how it is, no need to explain.

Agree and like your comments, just a slight off topic "correction" that a lot of people seem to forget. Bata in himself is rather useless, at least in tough end camps in rpve. Reason he is being "op" is a combination of his own features and the supporting cards, like Life Weaving, Unholy Power + Hero, Frenetic, Infect, Nether Warp, Regrowth, Disenchant, Earthshaker,  Curse of Oink, etc, etc, etc. Without these cards Bata is mediocre at best...

Edit: Sorry, forgot to mention the enablers here, eg. the "horrific" void manipulation features, FoF + Cultist Master or SoW...they are a big reason to Bata being so called "op".

// Ponni

Edited by Ponni
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4 hours ago, wanky said:

every faction have theyr unic typ of cards. f.e. Fire have the huge Dmg spells, nature the good healing speels, frost awsome CC speels and also good defenc buildings. also shadow have his cards, mainly playing around the void and self killing units. 

jep the general thing yes.

i did in the post focus on unique abilitys (effects) that only 1 card of the entire game has and not share the same or simular effect with other abilitys/spells that only use diffrent names. shure not only shadow and nature has them alldo they have the most obious ones with:

Shadow: Shred them!
Nature: Wish

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4 hours ago, Ponni said:

Reason he is being "op" is a combination of his own features and the supporting cards, like Life Weaving, Unholy Power + Hero, Frenetic, Infect, Nether Warp, Regrowth, Disenchant, Earthshaker,  Curse of Oink, etc, etc, etc. Without these cards Bata is mediocre at best...

Agree in all points, and even more: Many have this "frame" but still have troubles to encounter several situations as hard BG10 camps, several bosses like Nyxia, Hellhound, Fallen Eve, Infester or have troubles encountering willzappers, or have troubles with orbswitching which prolly needs some practice to feel safe with it. All not that easy as many people say

Batariel alone is far from beeing OP, and finding nice synergys that is what card games are about in my opinion. But hey, back to topic: Decomposer ;)

 

Edited by Volin
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i mean effects that are unique and no other card has s simular effect/ability that does almost the same 

f.e. disentchant effect: remove magic
and Windhunter ability: gifted sobering

they are diffrent alldo haveing simular effects. 

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Frost with theyr shilds is unice themself, no other faction can get a 2nd helthbar. (from the main fractions).
in Fire, u have many high dmg speels, like no other faction have. (e.g. eruption ---> fire sphere)

i think its one of the most importent things that every faction have theyr own UNIQUE stuff.
In Nature u still have good healing, and shadow is the faction about void and playing like killing yourself.

 

tbh i know what ur talking about, there is a reason why high end decks looks many times similar. There is a reason why in some speedruns decomoser is used. (mostly just cause there is no room for 2 carrys) So its have to be clear that the energy from the "suport" is going to the carry player. In many speedruns (for our team) Suportplayers have a huge jop todo with speels, and guiding. Thats why i would first like to see other stuff come better playable before nearfing the most used things in this game. I rly think if we are going to change stuff about the moste using cards in this game, many many players will get "angry" and maby delet this game. There is already a little playerbase, so why make the playerbase mad with things like this?

I hope u understand my "anger" about this discussion. 

 

/wanky

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currently in matters of seconds many units can be destroyed. but if the skill of the building gets a cooldown on its ability that may lets it shred every 1-10 sec 1 unit decreses its effectivness a bit

Can anyone can say - how big should dealy be to make BH run hard enough to be near impossible for non-expert players? 3 seconds? 5? Its "softest" idea by far. I fear that "easy runs" would move to Guns of Lyr then - but - GoL runs still are not as "team rearded" as GoL.

 

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19 hours ago, Draconnor said:

Can anyone can say - how big should dealy be to make BH run hard enough to be near impossible for non-expert players? 3 seconds? 5? Its "softest" idea by far. I fear that "easy runs" would move to Guns of Lyr then - but - GoL runs still are not as "team rearded" as GoL.

 

If u want to change this, u are actually talking about, Farming XP and Gold Rewards after finisch a map, u should start talking about, what idea u prefer to change the reward system for completing a map. 

i still don't see any reason to change anything about the decomposer, except to make the real speedrunners unhappy. 

 

/wanky

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16 hours ago, wanky said:

If u want to change this, u are actually talking about, Farming XP and Gold Rewards after finisch a map, u should start talking about, what idea u prefer to change the reward system for completing a map. 

i still don't see any reason to change anything about the decomposer, except to make the real speedrunners unhappy. 

 

/wanky

^This. Many people mix the card with map issues.

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21 hours ago, wanky said:

If u want to change this, u are actually talking about, Farming XP and Gold Rewards after finisch a map, u should start talking about, what idea u prefer to change the reward system for completing a map.

If you see farming Bad Harvest as a main method of gaining xp and gold... that should be left alone - then its exacly why it need to be fixed.

The reward system is quite ok. Its current decomposer that allows to abuse that on BH and few more maps in less abusive, but still toxic form.

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2 hours ago, Draconnor said:

If you see farming Bad Harvest as a main method of gaining xp and gold... that should be left alone - then its exacly why it need to be fixed.

The reward system is quite ok. Its current decomposer that allows to abuse that on BH and few more maps in less abusive, but still toxic form.

it is not the decomposer. Doing speedruns does not mean that you always play with decomposer and simply feed through a certain number. As shown in the video of convoy (link down below), for example, you can also play massive map skips without a decomposer and this achieve a very fast time. In Bad Harvest, for example, you skip the entire defensive part of the wagon, as well as the cannons. Such map skips are possible on many maps (like the well-known one in GoL where you kill the building over the wall and many more), whereas in e.g. Ravens end such map skips are not possible, but the decomposer makes them a few minutes faster because you don't have to wait for energy. Even if the other player then also goes t4 and clears parts of the map, it is faster if one is t4 early than if 2 are late. Another example this month MOTM10 where decomposer was used to balance the energy deficit of the player who loses many wells and also orb at the beginning. 
You can't argue against clear facts, just don't. 
The reward system is broken in that it always gives the total rewards even if you skip many parts of the map. Because that's what effectively annoys most people. The decomposer is just one of the maps that makes this easier on some maps, like Bad harvest. On most maps, however, you can do these skips without any problems. So if you want to get to the root of the problem, you have to rework the reward system a bit. Not the cards that have no effect on the players apart from speedrunning and solo plays. 

 

Edited by wanky
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On 4/23/2021 at 8:17 PM, wanky said:

You can't argue against clear facts, just don't. 

And you missing my point.

You write about... true speedruning? that is what? 5% of players? Less?

And i'm writing about social pathology that affects more than a half new players... and bunch of old ones that have problem with playing normal BH. If any potential new player will be forced to be "no fun zombie feeder" then we definetly won't have new players that will love the game - but maybe few new smarties with no teamplay skills. It's simple as that.

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59 minutes ago, Draconnor said:

And you missing my point.

You write about... true speedruning? that is what? 5% of players? Less?

And i'm writing about social pathology that affects more than a half new players... and bunch of old ones that have problem with playing normal BH. If any potential new player will be forced to be "no fun zombie feeder" then we definetly won't have new players that will love the game - but maybe few new smarties with no teamplay skills. It's simple as that.

Just reread everything in this discussion.

TLDR for you:
Remove the Gold XP rewards for playing 3 min Bad Harvests, and boom no more issues.

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3 hours ago, Draconnor said:

And you missing my point.

You write about... true speedruning? that is what? 5% of players? Less?

And i'm writing about social pathology that affects more than a half new players... and bunch of old ones that have problem with playing normal BH. If any potential new player will be forced to be "no fun zombie feeder" then we definetly won't have new players that will love the game - but maybe few new smarties with no teamplay skills. It's simple as that.

Introduce that not completing all quests on a map no longer gives 100% of the gold and XP, in BH as an example, you will do the cannons nor the deffence on the wagon, so skipping a large part of the map. If you assume that 100% is 4k gold, you could say 10% is the minimum you would get if you skipped everything, and for every quest you do you get a percentage more gold. In BH, I think it's 4 cannons, 1 wagon deffence, 3 stone lords, 1 jorne.

So 9 quests in total. 

10% if you do nothing and win
spoeedrun (3 lords 1 jorne) 50%
all cannons and defence are also 5 quests, so also 50%.

So the speedrun would still give 2k gold, which i think is still too much to stop goldfarms from playing zombie mode on BH. 

Therefore my suggestion: what has to be done for a map (at BH the 3 lords and jorne) give a maximum of 25% of the reward, everything else that is "voluntary", which can be skipped by a tactic, give 75%.

This is how you have regulated it not only for BH, but for all maps. Because we all know that if BH can no longer be made, the next map will come, probably GoL, and then the map will be destroyed for speedruns by map changes or cards. After GoL comes the next map that can simply be used for gold farms, then the next, and this until it is no longer fun to play any map because you have to clear any map completely for getting done, which is just boring from a speedrunner's point of view, apart from RPVE perhaps.

 

In my point of view it would be good, if speedruns themself get nerved that rewards are way more smaler by  skipping things on map who are not 100% nessesery (like the cannons in BH), but still is playable for the Fastest time. 

 

/wanky

 

 

edit: btw, this is what we are talking about since weeks/months, we startet talking about rework reward system after some streamers start to farm gold and Xp live on twitch, cause we clearly saw this abuse coming für gold/XP farm.

Edited by wanky
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19 hours ago, Draconnor said:

And you missing my point.

You write about... true speedruning? that is what? 5% of players? Less?

And i'm writing about social pathology that affects more than a half new players... and bunch of old ones that have problem with playing normal BH. If any potential new player will be forced to be "no fun zombie feeder" then we definetly won't have new players that will love the game - but maybe few new smarties with no teamplay skills. It's simple as that.

Addressing the symptoms rather than the "disease" will not help in this case as @wanky points out above. Please ask yourself the question, why do people resort to these gold runs on BH? My answers to this question are the following:

- Quick gold is needed to enjoy the game with fully upgraded cards. I suppose then a 3 minute run (a common BH gold farm time) is preferable to a 15 minute run (a common casual rpve 9 run) to get ~4000 gold. You will get 5 times the amount of gold doing this, case closed.

- If you have a deck consisting of 3 UR, 3 R, 3 UC and 11 C cards, it will require 185525 gold, this is then either 2h19mins of BH play or 11h40mins of rpve9. One of my favourite decks consist 4 UR, 7 R, 4 UC, 5 C, which equals BH time, 3h18 mins or rpve9 time, 16h40mins. That is then for 20 cards, then there are another 500+ cards to upgraded, on top of my head then I take the 185525x25 and then you end up with a shitload of time spent to upgrade cards, case closed.

If you wanna fight stuff then fight this, it takes too long to get places in this game. Fighting Decomposer will only lead to other ways to get quick gold. Then in the end everyone will reach a threshold when gold becomes useless and then farming runs on BH (and other maps) will be obsolete.

For the card then and for me personally, without a few runs in BH as a feeder, some runs on other maps as a "runner" I have hardly ever used Decomposer. To me it is generally a pretty useless card, still I defend it as it brings a nice niche use in extreme speedruns with the feature "power sharing". For the void manipulation factor there will always be better solutions, I believe, as T1 usually is over in a matter of minutes...

In fact, it would be interesting to see the usage of this card in the total number of matches played. I asked @Zyna for these stats in Discord but have not received any replies to it yet. So, I go back in time a bit with a reference that Kubik posted like a year ago (before the reset yes...) where card usage was shown in matches played:

https://gist.github.com/Kubikx/189d173c337e4d996382cc59b0bf7919

There Decomposer is on place ~115 of most played cards in matches. I guess that figure is roughly the same today so what is the problem here really? People are not playing the game how it is "intended" to be played? How is it then intended to be played? Until we see proof of this card being used in every match played every day all the time, only then I could start agreeing we have a problem card. Now it is only a niche card, viable for a limited set of activities, such as speedrunning for best times and farming gold, as it was "intended"...

// Ponni

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Fully understand that Gold/XP distribution is the problem of this tread and not decomposer, still i think you made some flawed arguments.

3 hours ago, Ponni said:

There Decomposer is on place ~115 of most played cards in matches. I guess that figure is roughly the same today so what is the problem here really? People are not playing the game how it is "intended" to be played? How is it then intended to be played? Until we see proof of this card being used in every match played every day all the time, only then I could start agreeing we have a problem card. Now it is only a niche card, viable for a limited set of activities, such as speedrunning for best times and farming gold, as it was "intended"...

// Ponni

Nobody said that the problem is playing the game as it's not intended (complaints about amii monument go more in that direction). The problems stated were more about the consequences of totally unbalanced XP/gold rewards for 2-3 min BH runs wich a lot of new players do now since they heard of it. And a card being a certain rank in most played cards doesn't make it problematic or unproblematic. I'm sure amii monument isn't in the Top 50 and a lot of people have complained about it. I'm even more sure decomposer wasnt intended to be what you say. Doesn't it even say ,,own units'' on the card lol?

I think the real problem and some possibly good solutions have been pointed out, but i still wanted to give my 5 cents cause you're all jumping on him and some arguments here i found to be rather weak.

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Two entirely separate issues are being conflated here. With gold/XP progression is mostly being used as a deflection to protect Decomposer.

Say Decomposer was fixed. Instantly the times to finish certain multiplayer maps would rise because it is by far one of the most powerful tools there is to speed up progress. Undoubtedly a new "most efficient" way to get gold would surface. It would be noticeably slower than currently. Maybe it would even be achievable through regular play. Passage to Darkness comes to mind. Or rPvE9. The point is that the margin between the "most efficient" way to farm gold and the "average" way would be significantly smaller. For now.

However what a Decomposer fix wouldn't protect from would be some other speedrunning tactic/strategy finding it's way into the "mainstream" and being now used to finish maps quickly for massive gold returns, exploiting the current gold/XP reward system once more.

So now say gold/XP returns were changed. First of, it's important that the reward system is intuitive. So some messy formula that gives you a % of whatever gold for orbs or objectives or whatever is nonsense. But it's not impossible to rework the system, maybe the initial implementation just didn't hit the mark. Let's assume a new reward system gets implemented that is both intuitive and simple (maybe something with bounties on side objectives or placing gold chests in key locations) but also does not reward the same gold/XP simply for finishing maps as fast as possible. That would immediately discourage straight forward goldfarming.

However, something I have not seen talked about a lot are upgrades. Rare and especially Ultra Rare upgrades are expensive to unlock so it incentivizes people to instead play their respective maps. Even if someone got very low gold/XP for b-lining a map as fast as possible, they'd still be rewarded with upgrades. Would you then tie getting upgrades to in-game actions? Getting the ones you want is already slow because of RNG and distribution among players. Leaving an upgrade on the map would be a big hit to progression.

Something else to consider with strictly tying gold/XP rewards to objectives/chests/whatever is that a pressure would emerge for all participants to go for these key points. We have already seen that in the beginning with the Passage to Darkness gold chest achievement. People were constantly pushing to open all chests and complain after the match if something was missed.

Also, if only gold/XP rewards were changed and Decomposer would retain its current function it would just be a matter of time until it rears its head again to be a problem once more. Instead of farming gold/XP, people could continue farming upgrades with it. Or maybe eventually a strategy emerges where, even with a changed gold/XP reward system, you'd be able to finish a map exceptionally fast while also hitting most objectives. Speedrunning tactics constantly trickle down into regular play in this game. You'd always have to be on the lookout, all you'd do was to push back the problem.

 

Both the current gold/XP reward system for maps and Decomposer are separate issues that happen to overlap here. Addressing only one will just result in the other becoming a problem again somewhere down the line.

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I don't think rewards based on objectives are unintuitive. Taking bad harvest as an example, Moon even tells you to do these things, so i think for beginners i would rather be unintuitive to ignore these objecives. I agree with you, though, rewards based on who takes how many orbs are indeed strange.

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