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With 50-100 energyadvantage I am convinced fire t1 can counter them simply by spamming sunstriders splitted. 

But how easy is it to trick someone into spawning too many sunstriders, and then rushing a different base with burrowers? Or just using lavafield? What does frost do against deathglider?

I never used that type of tactic, but I did play deathgliders before I could afford scythe fiends. When I was super poor, I remember using a combination of fire stalker and deathglider for my S counter. :) But that was even before I could afford burrowers, so firestalker made sense as an all-around siege, swift, L-counter, S-knockback unit. Deathgliders are great for noobstomping and surprise attacks, but I think there are other cards that should go in that deck slot.

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What does frost do against deathglider?

I think master archers should have less problems dealing with deathgliders than the low health-sunstriders. MAs + homesoil would probably be enough but for extreme cases there's always lightblade or glacier to save your well.

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Werebeasts.thumb.jpg.9298c06e7b8c7d0d2b4

When I made nature decks, I would often go with these because I could not afford the price of Swiftclaw back then. Although I must say this card is pretty nice and possibly has a potential with Amazon if given the power. 

The stats are decent and the regeneration is nice, everything you should expect from a starter card. Being the cost is 75, 5 less than Swift claw, although being Small creatures allows this card to easily fall to Dreadcharger, Frost Mage, etc. Unlike swiftclaw, which is a medium card and cannot be affected as much from those, I think this card could make a worthy entry into a deck that cannot afford swiftclaw for the time being. Or this card could be useful for PVE, where the regeneration could make it a little more tankish when capturing points and survivability.

Overall 7.9/10 Great but not the best

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I'd rate this card 5/7 as I didn't really use it much. A big part of me not using it is that it's nature and I really don't like nature.. :/  It's a swift squad unit which I really don't like. Swift units should be one unit, not a squad. Just feels better to me that way :P 

 

(If you don't find the 5/7 rating funny, you need to look up "5/7")

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This card is kinda decent if you want to start nature but can not afford shamans and do have very few charges. In combination with windweavers they are solid as a tank unit mainly. IIf you have enough Windweaver charges and any kind of cc spell (hurricane, root) you dont even need a tank unit though. At lvl 10 solo maps you should be fine with 6-7 windweavers and a dryade( frost) + 1-2 surge of lightand a single root generally.

On my smurf account where i had almost no charges or expensive cards whatsoever and i needed every heal i could get for later stages of the game, i started nature and used that combination quite successfully. I mainly played solo lvl 9 on that account and got rather okayish times with pretty much Shrine of War being the only 'expensive' card and almost no charges at all.( deck lvl was around 25). I am not exactly sure what times i got but i think it was around 20-25 minutes. I guess you could even win most lvl 10 maps with that deck quite easily :).

Maybe i just post the deck i used( as far as i remember + rest assumptions of what i shouldve used):

1zr0shk.png

Most of that should be rather selfexplaining. If you need some extra power for t2 i found Stone of Torment a good addition. Most of that is kinda necassery even though you could be fine without the decomposer and fof and unholy hero. Not necassery but highly recommended is Healing Gardens and Ray of Light. In combination those can give you super nice healing power.

Your charge prioratization are mostly the spells. I'd recommend putting at least 2 extra charges into Regrowth and 1 in each Equilibrium. Having 1 or 2 extra charges in Ray of Light is optional but i highly recommend it. You should have 1 extra charge in either one of the t3 units( i personally prefer Magma Hurler) and at least 2 extra charges in Giant Wyrm. Also at least 1 extra Charge in Offering and Rifle Cutltists is recommended. The Rest is rather 'nice-to-have' and you should be totally fine without any extra charges. That results in:

U0: 

  • Windweavers
  • Werebeasts
  • Nightcrawler
  • Swamp Drake
  • Decomposer
  • Furnace of Flesh
  • Breeding Grounds
  • Healing Gardens
  • Shrine of War
  • Unholy Hero
  • Surge of Light
  • Curse of Oink

U1:

  • Magma Hurler
  • Rifle Cultists
  • Offering
  • Ray of Light
  • Equilibrium

U2:

  • Giant Wyrm
  • Regrowth

U3:

  • /

That would result in a total deck lvl of: 18 as a minimum to beat lvl 9 in a decent time. Pretty sure you can do it with less but it will increase the necassery time massively, as you will run out of charges quite constantly. I am not exactly sure what you will need for lvl 10, but depending on the map you might need a quite higher deck lvl. This deck will struggle against Stonekin maps at lvl 10 quite hard as it has hard times against Constructs and Tortuguns as well as against any kind of Bosses that you might face at t4. So for worst case scenario( Stonekin map and Boss at t4) i would recommend not even trying the map with this deck if you are not having massively improved your t2 and t3 regarding charges. I'd say you'd need at least deck around or it will soak up way to much time to make it worth. Any Bandit map should be possible with probably deck lvl around 30. This is based around assumptions though (so dont blame me if i am wrong :P).

Why am i getting this much off-topic nowadays :o? Trying to avoid it in future :P.

 

Edited by Treim
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hmm  this is a good card indeed,love the regen stat...but yea its vulnerable against units like frost mage,although i think its the best early game nature card for someone who wants to start off by making a new nature deck.

wish there was a stronger werewolf minion thing for nature as well,maybe medium sized and for 2-3 orbs,alas there isnt :\ ...sigh

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It's a unit that works better at paper than in a real deck. I got to play around with it when I started the game but that's it. The biggest problem of Werebeasts is not that their stats are bad for a 75 power units, that S-units can have severe drawbacks or that their regeneration is useless. 

The biggest issue with Werebeasts are Windweavers. Besides normal pve I really don't see a reason why you would choose them as your starting swift unit. As for pvp you take Swiftclaw/Amazon for obvious reasons and in rpve you just don't need a swift T1 unit.

I would have loved to use Werebeasts in the rare occasions I played nature, but they are too niche and you just can't play nature T1 without Windweavers. Okay, you could use Treespirits too, but those are even stronger than WW if you know what you are doing, so that's no argument.

To round this up:

  • Stats: Not terrible on U0, since 600/600 is okayish for 75 power... but 600/600 for U3? No, thank you.
  • The regeneration is... nice? You already have so many heal possibilities in nature, the 11HP/s on U3 is totally negligible. You need about a minute to actually heal them up totally and that's about as good as letting units stand near a well/orb.
  • Being a melee S unit means: getting rooted, hurricaned and facing strong T1 S-counters
  • Windweavers are about as strong as Werebeasts but can hit air... and you wil need to kill air units.

Once I thought that a Green Amazon + Werebeast combination would be fun, as you could really capitalize on the passive regeneration ability of the Werebeasts... but you will waste 2 slots for something that is hardly better than any other nature opening and since you can't attack air targets that would leave you with a massive weakness.

Really, you can see it any way you want but at the end of the day they are just not worth it. Now, Werebeasts could be interesting if they'd cost about 60 or 65 power and have their heal increased so it actually makes a difference, but unless you give them anything that could make them able to compete with other nature card, just about everything speaks against using them.

 

4/10. It's not very bad, just very outclassed.

Edited by Mental Omega
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I like them and they are useable, however there are better swift units for Nature T1 (Swiftclaw and Amazon) I do remember that there was a pure nature player (forgot his name) who loved using Werebeasts in PvP but that's all I ever saw of it. in PvE it is useable though, definitely while in the beginning. I give it a 6/10.

hmm  this is a good card indeed,love the regen stat...but yea its vulnerable against units like frost mage,although i think its the best early game nature card for someone who wants to start off by making a new nature deck.

wish there was a stronger werewolf minion thing for nature as well,maybe medium sized and for 2-3 orbs,alas there isnt :\ ...sigh

There is Forest Elder which is basically a giant Wolf so there's that XD 

latest?cb=20091012163950

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I like them and they are useable, however there are better swift units for Nature T1 (Swiftclaw and Amazon) I do remember that there was a pure nature player (forgot his name) who loved using Werebeasts in PvP but that's all I ever saw of it. in PvE it is useable though, definitely while in the beginning. I give it a 6/10.

There is Forest Elder which is basically a giant Wolf so there's that XD 

latest?cb=20091012163950

It looks to be more on the Feline side more than the Canine side

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It looks to be more on the Feline side more than the Canine side

Yes it does appear more like a Tiger but if you look closely you'll notice that it is no (admittedly, huge) cat.

Unlike dogs, cats have the ability to retract their claws which gives them several advantages (and the main reason why this biological model is so successful). It allows them to move more with more stealth, as hard claws will make more noise compared to the soft paws. Also, due to the fact that the claws are only used when needed they are kept sharp. So, technically speaking, cats are better dogs :kappa:

Pictures/screenshots featuring Forest Elder always show him with his claws. Therefore, it is some kind of dog :P.

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Firedancer.thumb.jpg.c6bb687222db193ded6

This card is something pretty much every fire PVP deck looks forward to playing on a regular basis. The range is insane coupled with the siege makes it very annoying to play against. 

I mean there's only so much I can talk about on this card, but if I did I would keep repeating myself...

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we have discussed firedancer a lot allready. the general consensuse is that the card is 100% fine in high elo, but an issue in mid elo as it takes more skill to counter than execute. if there should be a nerf, high lvl play should not be affected; it would be best to reduce dmg when cliffing only. if that's not possible, i am against a general nerf in any way. would propably weaken the card too much for high lvl play.

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we have discussed firedancer a lot allready. the general consensuse is that the card is 100% fine in high elo, but an issue in mid elo as it takes more skill to counter than execute. if there should be a nerf, high lvl play should not be affected; it would be best to reduce dmg when cliffing only. if that's not possible, i am against a general nerf in any way. would propably weaken the card too much for high lvl play.

I guess you mean this discussion.

 

Pretty sure this one was pretty irrelevant for PVE, can not really judge that well about it as i never played Pure Fire a whole bunch and actually saw almost noone using it for at least some years. Probably someone else has some more insight about that. It was at least not a 'must-have' for rPVE. At least i had no problem not using it.

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I guess you mean this discussion.

 

Pretty sure this one was pretty irrelevant for PVE, can not really judge that well about it as i never played Pure Fire a whole bunch and actually saw almost noone using it for at least some years. Probably someone else has some more insight about that. It was at least not a 'must-have' for rPVE. At least i had no problem not using it.

It probably could have some general use, Campaign PVE but that's all I can think of 

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Easily one of pure Fire's best PvP cards, just set up a rallying banner near the monuments and wells of your opponent and there you go, you can start spamming fire dancers and use other units to protect them. On top of that the insane range also allowed it to cliffdance, which is just super annoying to deal with, if that can be nerfed, that would be amazing.

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On 1/13/2016 at 0:46 PM, Mental Omega said:

Yes it does appear more like a Tiger but if you look closely you'll notice that it is no (admittedly, huge) cat.

Unlike dogs, cats have the ability to retract their claws which gives them several advantages (and the main reason why this biological model is so successful). It allows them to move more with more stealth, as hard claws will make more noise compared to the soft paws. Also, due to the fact that the claws are only used when needed they are kept sharp. So, technically speaking, cats are better dogs :kappa:

Pictures/screenshots featuring Forest Elder always show him with his claws. Therefore, it is some kind of dog :P.

Slightly off topic....but maybe it's a type of badger/wolverine? Or something in that family.

@ the firedancer, there are plenty of threads entirely devoted to it :)

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Phalanx.jpg.76de460e9d724f040e2e4ff84c9c

May I be the first to say, this card seems overloaded in abilities, but for a good reason.

I find this an upgraded version of Imperials, which is a good card. This card is pretty good as well, especially with all of the horsemen and stuff around. It could even go up against a Harvester with about maybe two or more of them to compete. An addition to the high health, this card can gain a great amount of attack buffs from being upgraded and also from being switched into defensive formation.

I like this card, not sure about you guys though, but I give a 8.3/10 great.

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I rememeber trying this card in my :frostorb::shadoworb: deck before Lost Souls came out. 

The crazy amount of health in addition to it's ability, combined with :shadoworb:buffs made it almost impossible to kill.

Although on it's own it can be kited easily, so it has to have backup support and then still, good players will kite them.

I think one of it's biggest problems is, that it competes with Defenders and it most situations Defenders are worth the deckslot a little more,

especially in :frostorb::fireorb: or :frostorb::natureorb: where you have heals for them.

 

So overall I would say this card is pretty good in low/ mid elo, where kiting and stuff doesn't happen that frequently, but in high elo it has the

possibility to be outplayed easily.

Personally I'd probably play some other meele unit over Phalanx because I value mobility for meele units too much to find a slot for it and

Defenders over them as my T2 L-Counter because they have a higher DPS uptime ans also a damage reduction ability.

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54 minutes ago, Loptous said:

Absolutely no one? I am stunned lol

Sorry, I am no Frost player and can only provide theoretical advise :P

In general: Unless S melee units have a really good ability in T2, it's just bad.

1: Everything can knock the unit back... and if it cannot be knocked back, creatures will just ran past it.
2: There are some really brutal hard counters like Darkelf Assassins
3: root makes them useless

So in a way, much of what has been said about Werebeasts can also said about Phalanx. And if you want an L counter, pick Defenders who are cheaper, have equal damage and most of all: are ranged.

The stats are actually good, but there are just too many ways to deal with this unit.

And really, what target is it even supposed to kill!? All T2 L units outclass this unit very badly and in a realistic scenario you will hardly find an opportunity to actually get them to the fight.

But I cannot even think of an attack modifier that would make sense for this unit. Frost has was to deal with M already and they just cannot compete with Lyrish Knights to be made XL. And I cannot think that a T2 S/S would be exciting either...

Well, maybe they really should be M/S, but cheaper with less healt and steadfast by default? Not saying that would make the unit good, but I think it would be a great improvement as it is made viable against more targets and less prone to CC. And that's really the best thing I can think of to at least give them a some kind purpose. Or maybe let them slow down their targets... or really, anything.


 

There was a time when Shadow/Frost actually made heavy use of them before Lost Reaver was released since their health/cost ratio is so high and I really cannot think of anything else you would like to do than blowing them up. But actually getting them to detonate in range tricky as well due to already mentioned reasons. So they did have their short time of (in)fame.

 

Edited by Mental Omega
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Sadly i can not add to much to this conversation but that when it was kinda good didn't played any kind of frost splash and after that there were just better cards to use in frost t2 splashes. I didnt saw that card in rPVE nor PVe in a very long time and thats for good reasons.

How are you choosing cards btw? is it like randomly picking one or are you choosing them actively?

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8 hours ago, Loptous said:

Phalanx.jpg.76de460e9d724f040e2e4ff84c9c

May I be the first to say, this card seems overloaded in abilities, but for a good reason.

I find this an upgraded version of Imperials, which is a good card. This card is pretty good as well, especially with all of the horsemen and stuff around. It could even go up against a Harvester with about maybe two or more of them to compete. An addition to the high health, this card can gain a great amount of attack buffs from being upgraded and also from being switched into defensive formation.

I like this card, not sure about you guys though, but I give a 8.3/10 great.

I knew a few LS players who liked to use them. Nobody higher than Legend or so, but I know they used to be used for their high health. Before nerfs, it worked well with that furnace of flesh combo, and they nastied super well.

 

If I recall, at one point in the game I was talking with @MaranV and he showed me his stonekin deck. I asked him why he didn't have lyrish knight and he told me there was this big debate about whether lyrish or phalanx and lightblade were better XL counters. He was on the side of phalanx and lightblade, but I don't think he stayed with them. At high level play, I think they just get microed around too often.

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I playd against high elo ocassionaly so i cant tell about use there.But i have to say in low and mid elo i used them much :) and with succes just two phalanx in front of your monument and juggernout have no chance to stampeed trought * .But after playing a while i found this hard to manage so i swap phalanx for wintertide red affinity.*(im not sure if two or three phanax finished him ,but i think two with for example frost bite was enought)

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