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Karl Lavafeld

Balance proposal: Amii Monument

Would you finish all story maps for amii monument as reward?  

52 members have voted

  1. 1. Would you finish all story maps for amii monument as reward?

    • NO
    • YES, on expert of course
    • YES, on advance
    • YES, or at least I hope I would win on standard


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Amii monument vote ended with 4 green to 0 red from community representatives for the following sugesstion:

Vote : Change amii monument build cost to 325 make it untradeble and give it out as a achivement for complete all maps on expert. 

There also was the options 300 cost  and 350 cost. And not to make it an achivement but let it a normal card.

We wanted to make it close to as expensive as a normal monument and let it be a achivement witch you have to proove to be worthy first first and give a 

incentive to complete all missions.

The public vote majority voted for 350 cost with 32 green 18 red.

And 35 red 32 green for the Achivement status.

 

You will now have the oppertunity to say your opinion on the proposal here in the forum.

 

Kind regards

Edited by Kubik
add pool

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I am fine with that. Especially with the untradable status. It is a fair soulution. But for me as a more casual gamer, who does not have enough time at once to focus on an expert mission, it will be unreachable. What I would definitly prefer would be to give it out as bonus if a player completed all maps on advanced.

Only one thing came to my mind: you are a good player, when you got your momument. On top, as a bonus, you could then finish your Soultree even better. Isn't this a bit unfair or at least ironic?

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I think making it only achievable after finish all maps also adds another challenge to the game ;)

your not necessarily a good player, for that we would also need to add a time cap to the finish requirements

i have requested data on how many people would have unlocked the amii right now anyway

Edited by LEBOVIN

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I had finished all maps on expert during the EA times as a challenge to myself. But now on Skylords reborn I didn't bother Clearing all maps on expert mostly because there is no Benefit in doing so (and some maps are just - excuse my language - a huge pain in the ass).

I really didn't like Amii when it first came out, mainly because i didn't have one and secondly because I thought it was gamebreaking. During the downtime of BattleForge I got older, maybe even a bit wiser too and think different About Amii beeing in the game. It became part of the game and we should accept that. Since it is a very powerful card (especialy in speedruns) I like the idea of it beeing behind a player "skillcheck". First you got to do the dirty work before you can enjoy Valhalla.

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"Amii is so OP and broken! People are using it to finish maps too fast! That is so bad for the game."

"We should give Amii to the good players only to widen the gap between what options they have and what the rest does. Sounds good."

Anyone else sees the disconnect in logic here?

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Amii Monument wasn't in the core game, and most of the PvE maps got designed without counting it in. We had Enlightenment which is a much weaker card and still ultrarare.

Many people can't win difficult maps without it.
I think if you can prove that you don't need it, then you can have it:)

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On Discord I was asked for the statistic how many players would have it right now

(12 maps, and rPvE not counted, only story maps)
46150 players win at lest 1 map
2951 players win all maps on standard or higher
39 players win all maps on advance or higher
14 players win all maps on expert

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Uhhh. Wait. What? Just 14 / 39???

I am one of 39? Unbelivable.

Edit: I thought the gap between stadard and advanced is a bit smaler and the gap to expert is much higher.

Edited by Flrbb

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4 hours ago, Flrbb said:

Uhhh. Wait. What? Just 14 / 39???

I am one of 39? Unbelivable.

Edit: I thought the gap between stadard and advanced is a bit smaler and the gap to expert is much higher.

I would assume it's because playing Advanced difficulty is worthless. It's better to get U3 from Expert and use extras to buy U2 and U1 with gold. It feels like in Advanced the time investment doesn't really justify the gains. Also, who bothers becoming good, efficient and fast on the medium difficulty? Not to mention, the community consists of either people just wanting to play a bit of BattleForge again or hardcore enthusiasts without much in between.

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An argument for Amii as a reward for completing expert maps that I have heard is that the game would benefit from a motivator to get people to play story maps.

darkwarrior on discord just threw an idea into the room: Have promo cards as rewards.

This idea is infinitely better since promo cards are nothing more than fully upgraded regular cards with a different skin. So absolutely no options would be gated behind this approach. Unlike with Amii, where LOADS of possibilities would get shut off from most people. I am pretty much always in favor of more options, not less. People love the promo cards so removing them from the booster drop pool and instead utilizing them as achievement of sorts would definitely be a motivator for players.

Currently there are a total of 14 promo cards in the game, I am sure they could serve well as a guiding force for players to give them goals they can strive towards. And all without locking unique options.

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I do like what Cocofang is saying and I want to expand that idea.

What if you give out rewards if a player completes a "branch" of the campaign? To elaborate: I mean those drawn lines on the map (like Dwarven Riddle and GoL). Lets say, if a player finishes all quests on advanced which are chained together he gets a (pre defined) reward. If all those quests are also done on expert, the player gets another reward. Or, if that would leed to too many rewards, then make it like U2 if done on advanced, U3 if on expert.

To have enough rewards I'd use all legendary cards (personally, I am unsure if using Promos for this would be a good idea). Also, you could give out single copies of cards, so that a player has still to spend gold to combine/upgrade those rewards.

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I like amii getting nerf, but I wish you did more. Look how superior amii is on nightmare's end for example.

582689830_Nightmares_End_Map.jpg.8ebed4f3d4eab8032e4df2df023bac9c.jpg

You're player 1 and just finished taking over the bottom base to secure t3 which you now have to defend along with your t1. After that fight, your t2 army is in pretty bad shape. You have two options to get t4:

1: Make a t3 army and take over the top base. Build your t4 monument and defend it. T3 army cost 500-800 power with spells (90% refunded) and 2-3 deck slots. Monument is 300 power. Defence is 300-500 binded power. Totaling about 800 lost power, 2 deck slots and a whole lot of time.

2: Put down amii monument. Totaling 325 binded power, 1 deck slot and 30 seconds.

Now I know there are many way to do this map better. You could take your teammate's t2 and go straight to t4, you could defend your monument and the power shrine with one defence, etc. The example above is what an average joe would do.

I don't think amii should cost 800 power. Maybe it should do something else entirely. An idea I saw on discord was to make amii t4 and cheaper, so it could be used as a 5th orb and orb swapping, opening many new possibilities.

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19 hours ago, indubitablement said:

Maybe it should do something else entirely. An idea I saw on discord was to make amii t4 and cheaper, so it could be used as a 5th orb and orb swapping, opening many new possibilities.

I really like ths idea. Sounds like great fun.
We'd just need to make sure there are no other broken combos entering the game this way.

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15 hours ago, Kybo said:

I really like ths idea. Sounds like great fun.
We'd just need to make sure there are no other broken combos entering the game this way.

This is the idea i liked. i even asked for amii for t4 and make it extremely cheap dirt cheap, so that you now have 5 orb and multicolor new decks.  I discuss this with someone who was bend out of chape in making it t4, said that the card t3 is what makes unique deck, but the game is already designed to reach t3 normally, so there isnt any variety to it. 

 

T4 would make deck more unique...

 

As for the achievement for all expert. doubt it, i also finished all expert maps but xlink also agree that the amii being lock behind a wall is a bad idea.   

 

As the to discussion about darwarrior with the promo,  xlink did said that he is all up for it.  that was said before even dark mention the idea.  I asked him if he would make reward all expert map long ago, I asked him when i heard about the expert 14 player achieved it. I wanted it before the wipe or release to see how many player would be pushed into doing so, even making reward for expert map myself.. xlink said he preffered post achievement reward not pre..

 

As for the reward it wasnt mention but that it would probably be worked on... However, once again, the idea of amii being lock behind wall was not liked.

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Firstly Amii t4 does not enable new strategies . All these strategies are ALREADY playable.

Secondly majority of people right now use it to get t4 faster /easier to clear . When u right now do clear everything with t3 people will then do it with t4 first and not t5. Like that’s one unnecessary step, when ur t4 u have enough, if u really want to play a strange t5 strat you can do it already.

Edited by LEBOVIN

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13 hours ago, LEBOVIN said:

Firstly Amii t4 does not enable new strategies . All these strategies are ALREADY playable.

Secondly majority of people right now use it to get t4 faster /easier to clear . When u right now do clear everything with t3 people will then do it with t4 first and not t5. Like that’s one unnecessary step, when ur t4 u have enough, if u really want to play a strange t5 strat you can do it already.

I had an argument when someone said that amii at t3= variety which i laugh my ass off. there is no variety when you can reach it the normal way. t4 would mean variety since it means that it would cause deck to add other type of card in a 5 color deck.. I understand that this is not good for speed runner though i been doing research ever since i left discord and i can see that amii is EXTREMELY require for many stragety for speed run. And as a speed runner yourself im sure this would be important.

The only way now you can have amii ever nerf is through increase of cost, the one with achievement should probably be taken off

https://ibb.co/H7PxwdZ

I wanted it before the wipe or release so i can see how many player would be pushed to doing expert to see how much closer the gap, i asked for 4k bfp reward or so something high, because it's going to be wiped anyway and thuse the bfp wouldnt hurt anyone [wiped in either couple of wipe before release or after release]..

However, they said reward should be post-release when other or alot of player coming back would enjoy it..

as kubik said himself a long time ago there is 14 player finish, that number should of probably increased to 16 by now or who knows how many have done it, i stopped doing reward cause many coudn't do soul tree defending hope or encounter twillight on expert and the reward was around 600-1000.... so either way, below paragraph

However, in the end isn't not agree that it should be locked away behind a wall or exclusive.. That leaves you with a simple nerf to the number cost or making it t4 [the latter would probably piss off alot of speed runner who uses it as a specific strat for specific map [not all maps]].  And im also sure casual would be pissed as it's very much used for easy clearing with hardly any effort

 

as for the speed run comment i made above a small example out of alot of videos out there  

 

Amii.

 

I usually dont watch speedrun video but for underestanding why a card may or may not be nerf i have to understand their defensive stragety in their post[aka way to defend or way to nerf a card they want nerf]

Edited by Dion

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On 9/9/2019 at 3:40 PM, Dion said:

I had an argument when someone said that amii at t3= variety which i laugh my ass off. there is no variety when you can reach it the normal way. t4 would mean variety since it means that it would cause deck to add other type of card in a 5 color deck.

Amii creates loads of options for possible decks and strategies that would straight up not exist without it. While doing so it can be argued that it overshadows alternatives but it does not remove a single one. Strictly speaking Amii is a purely enriching card as far as possibilities go.

The current version of Amii literally enables a 5 color deck as well. If someone so chooses they can do that right now. Making Amii T4 means removing ALL possible approaches and decks that need it to be T3, while creating not a single new one. It is a powerful card and should cost more than a natural T4 orb but it doesn't remove any possibilities for deckbuilding.

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I have this proposal:

+ Amii now grant 4 of every orb, instead of a single orb.
+ Amii can be played on t1, instead of t3.

Make amii give 4 of every orbs on t1 for the ultimate enriched experience. It will create loads of options for possible decks and strategies that would straight up not exist without this change. It can be argued that it overshadows alternatives, but it does not remove a single one. Strictly speaking it would be a purely enriching change as far as possibilities go.

What are we waiting for? :D

Edit: The flaw in this reasoning is that overshadowing alternatives (even if it doesn't remove them) does matter. We can't balance anything without reference.

Edited by indubitablement
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14 hours ago, Cocofang said:

Amii creates loads of options for possible decks and strategies that would straight up not exist without it. While doing so it can be argued that it overshadows alternatives but it does not remove a single one. Strictly speaking Amii is a purely enriching card as far as possibilities go.

The current version of Amii literally enables a 5 color deck as well. If someone so chooses they can do that right now. Making Amii T4 means removing ALL possible approaches and decks that need it to be T3, while creating not a single new one. It is a powerful card and should cost more than a natural T4 orb but it doesn't remove any possibilities for deckbuilding.

like solo BH? speed run bH? or any type of speed run? like blight solo? what i see in amii is the power to be able to do some of these map easy. the one that i feel that wouldnt be possible to do is BH solo. Amii getting hit will be detrimental to alot of lower speed run. of course they will still be top in their respective rank but they will def wont be lower.. 

 

as for the T3, all deck and everygame= the same. reach t3 go t4 finish game. sometimes it does create huge problems , im not gonna list them all. some already mention in the discord when i use to go there..   https://ibb.co/PF3BYkB  this is one for example.. let me have t4 so i can get my wyrm.. i literally just clear the monument for my own partner so that he can have t3 and t4 because i already know the other side is rushing it.. with that in mind, i try putting up a defense after i jsut got t3.. he finish game and that almost destroyed us. lucky the other dude reached t4 just in time to put some t4 unit [2] while i after my necroblaster got destroy wiht no soul cause the other dude couldnt wait, summon spam aggresorss....   amii in multiple map can cause problem depending onthe type of player that uses it.. again will not name them all

 

So lets get to the point....  amii t3 allow you to get t4 and finish any type of game easy ishown this enough wheni made alot of videos.. so Lets get to the summaries

 

amii=easy to t4 easy match

amii can't be nerf by exclusive, even the owner didnt like this idea when i spoke to him on 8/25/2019

amii cant be taken out of the game cause both casual and speedrunner will flip. even though speedrunner can still have the best time ,their time wont be the lowest time they have now, Not included that some map strat can't be done without amii [bh solo expert]..

Making it t4 with extreme low build and extreme extreme low active cost [can be abused but will general server as a 5 deck color]

Amii cost increase must be related to the camp that you clear with t4 and the cost of getting t4.. I'm not saying 800, but the cost has to be something that either promote normal play or same play with the cost of activation and building...

 

the last one is the only nerf i can possibly see coming, the other will cause problem in a whole general sense.  That leaves us with how much increase would it be..

 

by the way im an advocate of taking amii off the game but i can atleast see what problem that would cause

 

*edit* i forgot last option, leave it alone [not my cup of tea at all but that another option]

 

 

 

 

13 hours ago, indubitablement said:

I have this proposal:

+ Amii now grant 4 of every orb, instead of a single orb.
+ Amii can be played on t1, instead of t3.

Make amii give 4 of every orbs on t1 for the ultimate enriched experience. It will create loads of options for possible decks and strategies that would straight up not exist without this change. It can be argued that it overshadows alternatives, but it does not remove a single one. Strictly speaking it would be a purely enriching change as far as possibilities go.

What are we waiting for? :D

 

Plus 1, i want to see how easy blight solo easy with amii t1 all 4 orb. lets go!!! you got my vote

 

just for lols

Edited by Dion

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13 hours ago, indubitablement said:

I have this proposal:

+ Amii now grant 4 of every orb, instead of a single orb.
+ Amii can be played on t1, instead of t3.Make amii give 4 of every orbs on t1 for the ultimate enriched experience. It will create loads of options for possible decks and strategies that would straight up not exist without this change. It can be argued that it overshadows alternatives, but it does not remove a single one. Strictly speaking it would be a purely enriching change as far as possibilities go.

What are we waiting for? :D

Edit: The flaw in this reasoning is that overshadowing alternatives (even if it doesn't remove them) does matter. We can't balance anything without reference.

Exaggeration to unreasonable heights isn't necessarily the same as making a point. 2/10 for effort too because you mostly only copied my post.

The most used argument I see against the strength of certain cards is "I don't like it when other people don't play the game the way I want it to be played". You will always have this problem when you group up with randoms! That's not a balancing issue, it's a human one. Go out and search for like minded individuals if that is so important to you.

The dumbest thing about Amii is that it's cheaper than a natural T4. Fix that and move on.

I get that balancing is very important in PvP but why is everyone so overambitious for PvE? People go like "THIS SHALL NOT STAND! *slams fist on table* I DEMAND WE UN-BREAK THE GAME!"

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5 hours ago, Cocofang said:

The dumbest thing about Amii is that it's cheaper than a natural T4. Fix that and move on.

Why is that a dumb thing? Why would that require a fix. As you say in PvP an overpowered card ruins the game for the opponent. But in PvE we only have people benefitting and the opponent is AI, you purposely want to increase energy cost, and thereby weaken every player using it just for the sake of fairness amongst orb energy cost?

Amii Monument comes with many disadvantages (examples below) compared to a normal orb and the developer simply lowered its costs to make up for that.

- Amii takes up a slot in your deck, depending on your strategy this is a big deal
- Amii requires save space to be build, which can cause you to need more defense
- Amii takes 45 / 30 seconds to be build plus an additional 10 seconds for the granting of the chosen orb, making it significantly slower then a normal orb
- Amii requires to becompetitive in build-up speed with a normal orb a construction hut, limiting deck choice even further as frost is required for the hut
- Amii can only be started to be build after your t3 is already finished, whilst a regular orb can be build at any time
- Amii total up front cost for building and orb selection is higher then for a normal monument, requiring void return and thus limiting your deck again


Especially in a speedrunning perspectives those points cannot be easily neglected. For a casual gamer they do not play a significant role and the slight power cost increase does neither. Making the proposed change effectively a nerf for everybody, but the only thing that really changes is that speedrunners times are getting hit, usage won't be affected.

Edited by LEBOVIN

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On 9/13/2019 at 6:36 PM, LEBOVIN said:

Why is that a dumb thing? Why would that require a fix. As you say in PvP an overpowered card ruins the game for the opponent. But in PvE we only have people benefitting and the opponent is AI, you purposely want to increase energy cost, and thereby weaken every player using it just for the sake of fairness amongst orb energy cost?

Amii Monument comes with many disadvantages (examples below) compared to a normal orb and the developer simply lowered its costs to make up for that.

- Amii takes up a slot in your deck, depending on your strategy this is a big deal [ key word depending, other wise if running a regular deck you take out t3 unit for amii and skip to t4, many uses this including myself, the disavantage with that is that if someone else uses amii than he is screwed, still, they go for that stragety]
- Amii requires save space to be build, which can cause you to need more defense [dont think this is usually a problem. most amii are build next to t1 area, and if t1 area isn't save, than the t1 monument isn't safe either, putting it in respectively, putting an amii next to a monument= safe, if you are not gonna protect the regular monument you are not gonna protect that amii, thus you lose both]
- Amii takes 45 / 30 seconds to be build plus an additional 10 seconds for the granting of the chosen orb, making it significantly slower then a normal orb [i feel like these perspective are all speedrunner but ok, the seconds never matter because the requirement of building an amii vs attacking the spot to get to the next orb is better. So if you build an amii vs attacking those spot, the amii with t4 will kill those spot extremely quick, this also depends if you using void manipulation to spam summon.. many player that i have spoken to never minds waiting for amii at all, however, i haven't spoken to speed run respectively, only a couple that are not even top ranked]
- Amii requires to becompetitive in build-up speed with a normal orb a construction hut, limiting deck choice even further as frost is required for the hut [i feel like this is speedrunner mind, so i guess so, if this is all speedrunner mentality i would agree if not i dont]
- Amii can only be started to be build after your t3 is already finished, whilst a regular orb can be build at any time [why would this matter, is this pvp? do player use amii in pvp? i have watched many pvp so far and i havent seen amii being used.. if this is not pvp, than  you are right that monument is faster than building amii, but you still have to go through the obstacle of getting to that monument to even activatye it, and that takes time too, worst in expert maps]
- Amii total up front cost for building and orb selection is higher then for a normal monument, requiring void return and thus limiting your deck again [once again it still wont matter, all speedrunner tactic uses it and see that even if it has the so called higher cost, they rather use amii than none, i think i already linked one video but i can link many more if needed to.]


Especially in a speedrunning perspectives those points cannot be easily neglected. For a casual gamer they do not play a significant role and the slight power cost increase does neither. Making the proposed change effectively a nerf for everybody, but the only thing that really changes is that speedrunners times are getting hit, usage won't be affected.

Majority of the speed run uses amii, Not once have i not seen amii not being used in the majority of the video of speed run. If all the above you said was valid the player would reconsidered a bit on it.

for pvp this is not an issue, i never saw it yet, still looking.

for pve there are alot of things.. one the speedrunner needs it.. almost everysingle one of them needs it. [take for example soultree,which with it you can jsut skip last camp and win the game]

for regular pve, it depends on what the player find fun. im sure the one using it is having a blast. but there are other technicalities, 

1. it makes the game extremely easy but i guess that what people want.

2. i have gotten in a run in dwarf riddle with 2 style.  

     - one the player uses amii and doesnt help the other get the orb, even though the player who doesnt get the orb helped him get his.. thus he sits waiting forever defending in base while he finish the game

   - two the player who got the amii pushes the game to fast even for the other side to prepare a defense since they are slower than the amii guy...

 

both occasion always depends on the player....

 

sadly as i said above the only nerf they can possibly hit is the cost.. if not for that,than i guess just leave it alone and let the game run it's course. 

 

EDIT

I RETRACT MY COMMENT , could careless now for the sake of anything, im done defending it, bunch of matches of people forcing amii in

 

https://ibb.co/Gt57Z5L
https://ibb.co/cJdmY2s

not even enough time to prepare a defense, Nerf it, couldnt care the how high the cost, couldn't care if you take it out of the game, sorry but dont care anymore. nerf it

Edited by Dion
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