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Kubik

Balance changes Balance changes to game

Balancing the game  

273 members have voted

  1. 1. Would you like us to do some balance changes before the release/wipe?

  2. 2. Where you prefere discusion about the proposed values to be



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15 hours ago, Kilian Dermoth said:

 

1. Playing with speedrunners (non single player maps) means like playing with people who abuse the game mechanics in such a way that it feels like cheating. You may like such a playstyle, like other speedrunners (had to laugh many times about the amii monument and soul tree discussion because its just to obvisious that the speedrunners want to protect their "cheaty" game mechanics as much as possible). I dont like that "cheaty"-playstyle. If you play with such a guy he will even force you to play his shitty "cheaty" game, too. It became nearly impossible to play guns of lyr without skipping the most part of the map. They even insult you if you play "normal" instead in the way they want, I just recall some games with Lebovin for example...

Killian i could add to every single comment you gave also my comments - but i just want to give you my feedback to the quoted one above. I really disagree with you in most of the points you gave.

For me you have no clue about speedrunning. You call it cheaty? We dont cheat we understand the maps and we are using the right cards for it. A lot of our speedruns just using the normal way to play - but really fast. I am also able to play every map in the normal way with nearly every deck.

You are talking about abusing game mechanics? Look at your so glory pvp community - when there is a card that is/was overpowered most players will us it to win in pvp. So who is really abusing here? Both PVP and PVE-Players abusing game mechanics right now . So dont think that pvp-players are something special. The pve and speedrunters are giving a lot of feedback to the Sky Lords reborn team also. What are most of the pvp-players doing? The wait for the reset because they are scared not to have the perfect win/loose ratio instead of having fun with the game and to be happy that it is back. When it comes to the official votes they are not voting - so simply i also could say i dont care for pvp-players. Anyway do your balance changes that are really important for pvp and dont try to change cards that you are already not using in pvp but pve players are mainly using.

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Again a wrong assumption, I am not a pvp player (even if some interest exists and I might give it a try from time to time), but I undestand that it needs balancing while the other modes dont necessarily need big balance changes.

Its for example cheaty if it comes to skipping whole parts of maps, because thats what cheats usually do. Best example: "soul tree and amii monument", thats for sure a bug and a cheat. Another one is to start a map with 4 players and let the other ones leave to have the wells and monuments just from the start and skip a whole or even 2 tiers. Yeah you use built in game mechanics, but you know what? Cheats are also built in or game mechanics which get abused. No difference to what you do, it just doesnt sound as good as "understanding game mechanics" or how you want to call it else.

Speedrunners are just a loud minority. It looks like you demand that the devs should built the game just for you, how many, 8 players, because you are the loudest here?

Also balance changes shouldnt be made to keep all time rankings, so that this 8 persons or even less when it comes to the top position, can keep their first, second and third place, no one else is carrying about? Thats even worse than pvp players who fear to ruin their win / lose rate ...

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Speedrunning is much more about than simply using bad design of the game. First you need to create a efficient strategy. That requires much knowledge about the map and the cards in BF. The strategy will use the most efficient way to win the map. If bad game design allows you to finish the map faster, you include it in your strategy. After you got that strategy you need to perform it in the best possible time. Every unit needs to placed in time. You need to follow you strategy like a machine. If you place a unit 5 seconds to late, the run is over, you need to restart the map, because other could perform it better and beat your time. This is of course not everyones taste. If someone calls this hole process just "cheaty gameplay" then he does not know much about it.

@Kilian Dermoth you do not seem to know much about speedruns. In fact you can not just skip a huge part of the story like Guns of Lyr or Soultree in the majority of the maps. They are probably just the most common speedruns. But still you left so many commend here. So who is the loud one here :P

By the way the about the balancing: I think, the EA devs achieved their goal. It is not coincedence that Nature and Frost are bad for aggresseiv gameplay and fire suits very well for this. It is by design. Did you all watched the Battleforge tutorial?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9HTy4tu7w8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpUGdHGzvWs

(The tutorial is also available in German)

LEBOVIN, Loriens and Pritstift like this

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1 hour ago, Kilian Dermoth said:

Again a wrong assumption, I am not a pvp player (even if some interest exists and I might give it a try from time to time), but I undestand that it needs balancing while the other modes dont necessarily need big balance changes.

Its for example cheaty if it comes to skipping whole parts of maps, because thats what cheats usually do. Best example: "soul tree and amii monument", thats for sure a bug and a cheat. Another one is to start a map with 4 players and let the other ones leave to have the wells and monuments just from the start and skip a whole or even 2 tiers. Yeah you use built in game mechanics, but you know what? Cheats are also built in or game mechanics which get abused. No difference to what you do, it just doesnt sound as good as "understanding game mechanics" or how you want to call it else.

Speedrunners are just a loud minority. It looks like you demand that the devs should built the game just for you, how many, 8 players, because you are the loudest here?

Also balance changes shouldnt be made to keep all time rankings, so that this 8 persons or even less when it comes to the top position, can keep their first, second and third place, no one else is carrying about? Thats even worse than pvp players who fear to ruin their win / lose rate ...

Just for clarification:

1) EA introduced the idea of speedruning - there are also special ranks for it. So in consequence we will also try to make/introduce improvements for speedruns in Skylords Reborn

2) We are not just 8 players - we are more then 20. In the past when new pve ranks were introduced a lot players were playing speedruns. Here in the forum we are maybe 8 that have the motiviation to discuss with players like you

3) We dont leave and give orb and wells to other players -this proofs you dont have any clue about speedrunning. You would see disconnected in the rankings btw. This statement counts mainly for my speedrunning mates.

4) It is possible to skip parts of the map because this are the conditions/procedure according to script  of the map- proofs again you dont know what you are talking about. Understanding the map is no cheat! If i dont need to finish side quests to finish the map i will not finish the side quests. I will focus in the main tasks.

5) Like Lebovin explained some post before - there is a technical reason why amii-monument is working for soultree and not working for retreating-circle.

6) Nobody is saying that the game is build for us - but why you should want changes to cards that you are not using in pvp? Your posts also show that you seem not to be really experienced in pve and thats why you dont should rate cards changes that affect pve mainly - i am also not doing this for pvp - like i said - change your cards for pvp but dont try to focus on pve also just because you are angry on the pve speedrunners and their Inputs ;-)

7) In Consequence of 6) - balance change for mortar or nether warp healing bug etc. are fine for me. I am excited to see the discussions how to balance best. Is it not like that there also some players that try to keep their advantages for pvp because they are used to it? I hope you can finish balance discussions for pvp before Battleforge Reborn is released by EA :-).

8) PVE needs also balancing - think of rpve/pve maps that you cant finish because your cards are to weak or impossible to get orbs

 

Summary: You hate and dont accept pve speedruners. This is ok - i also dont care about players like you.

Edited by Pritstift
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1 hour ago, fiki574 said:

Lmao, overcomplicated bug report template. Haven't heard this one, ever.

Yea, let's just post one sentence in the bug report and leave it up to devs to figure out what the fuck I've meant with it, in the end they're working on it so they must be able to figure it out, out of thin air.

Well, apparently figuring out bugs from no reports at all didn't work out so well either. Lowering the hurdle for people to submit reports would be one way to get more. At the very least the "How To Report Bugs" pinned post could be condensed into half its length or less without losing anything important. This too would make it faster and more convenient to report a bug. Because even being greeted with an overly long instruction can and will make people just not bother.

From what I have read this entire discussion about whether balance changes should be made at this point mainly spawned from the fact that there is nothing else to work on because of no reports so that is at least something to do and might get people invested. If that is such a massive problem then I think you have to work on multiple fronts to get reports going.

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@Halis Have you even read the whole thread? Because it doesnt look like you did. You talk completely off topic stuff. Its not speedrunning per se its the cheasy / cheaty parts of the speedrunning. No one want to remove speedrunning but people want to improve the game by remoeving or correcting bad game design or bugs. Your speedrunning collegues (and you?) want to leave everything as it is because of nonsens like comperable all time rankings. This has nothing to do with what you explained speedrunning is about, because I think almost anyone knows that already so that you just explained the obivicious, which wont be affected in any way. Because it will stay the same after balancing the game.

Btw. you again proved how conceited you and your collegues are by saying that I dont know what I am talking about... And I bet you would say that to anyone else who would have a contrary opinion, in this case, that balancing the game especially for modes where this is ncessary (as PvP) outweights nonsense like still being able to use bad game design (like Lebovin promoted) or to keep rankings comperable forever.

@Pritstift

1.) No one want to take speedrunning from you, but its the least important to consider when it comes to balancing, bug fixing or improveing game design. Even EA added it as the last mode, maybe because the effort to do so was minimal.

3.) Its wrong what you say, this is done! I think I even read about it in your beloved all time speed ranking thread (but not sure if it was there or somewhere else).

4.) There is no proof in what you are saying. The simplest proofs for what I am saying are guns of liar and soul tree. You skip usually essential parts of the map, not just side quest, in a way that wasnt intendet for sure. That doesnt mean that it is done on any map, only that it is done at all. Also its obivisious that you have to know the map to do so but no matter its still a cheat. Even for cheating you have to know how to cheat, dont you?

5.) You will find for any bug or cheat a technical reason, but it doesnt change anything, because the game runs on a technical machine, any behaviour has technical reasons...

6.) Tell me where I did say that? I said that the first priority for balancing is PvP, that means cards that are used or will become used in PvP. I even stated that this should primarily include cards until T3, because T4 is almost not used in PvP. But PvP should still not be the only reason for balancing, so PvE cards which are almost useless should get buffed for example. But this one has a lower priority and even here speed running shouldnt be taken into consideration. The reasons for this are many and most are already said (not only by myself).

8.) Another story, but yeah it should get some balance, but I dont know how besides of buffing non useful cards to get some more diversity. But you shouldnt be able to win with any possible deck.

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13 hours ago, Dion said:

It's probably just me but, back when ammi monument wasn't around , i loved the challange of maps and the unity it brough from player using every means of their OWN deck to bring something powerfull to the table  after amii,mo,wheel. it becomes who rushes to those deck first, bring it out and yells " I GOT YOU GUYS, ILL AFK NOW, enjoy the power of my global effect]..[3 wheels for 3 effect, we see here has only 2 effect] Those card are what ruin it for me, after that we all fought who gets to put those card down [beside wheel, which whoever puts it down wins]...

 

I preffered the aspect of having fun and having a challange with a none global deck but that is just me. [after the game got stale and probably close to shut down, many player made those custome map and still rushed for those above cards].. it was just like playing a yugioh top deck or a magic gathering top deck, nothing else mattered.

Thats my take on it.

True amii make every PVE easyer. I can totaly recomment if u search Teammates who play with u over and over again. with this mates u can play the maps in the way u want. sometimes also we play maps in casual way just for fun (or making challanges with for example: 1 only fire 1 only t3 one isnt allowd to use t2/3cards) expertmaps arent hard (exept of blight) like this we get our challange. off corse with no neutral cards (yes t3 only max and no MO or Lord Cyrian)

If u have a stock of players u like open up a discord server u can talk with each other. PVE is still a TEAMPLAY game. u will see it is mutch mutch more fun to play with "frends" 

6 hours ago, Kilian Dermoth said:

@wanky Nice written, really, but it doesnt represent the truth.

But I think, I never played with you or just cant remember so that it might be true for you and how you act but sure not for the speedrunner community!

 

Thx.

Possible we didnt play togeter yet. usualy i jon random CPVE maps with standart or Expert difficuld.

i can talk for my team that all of us act like this. maby not givaway card for free but help players finisch the map in casual style. (the team is btw. Kyuubii, Pritstift, Treim, Bango, LEBOVIN, (derNewYork, iameinheld), and me

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2 hours ago, Pritstift said:

Just for clarification:

1) EA introduced the idea of speedruning - there are also special ranks for it. So in consequence we will also try to make/introduce improvements for speedruns in Skylords Reborn

Repeating the same again and again. So again: EA never had the intention to balance stuff for speedrun. Never ever. The balancing focuse was always on pvp. So in consequence this line must be continued as common practice.

Quote

2) We are not just 8 players - we are more then 20. In the past when new pve ranks were introduced a lot players were playing speedruns. Here in the forum we are maybe 8 that have the motiviation to discuss with players like you3)

7) In Consequence of 6) - balance change for mortar or nether warp healing bug etc. are fine for me. I am excited to see the discussions how to balance best. Is it not like that there also some players that try to keep their advantages for pvp because they are used to it? I hope you can finish balance discussions for pvp before Battleforge Reborn is released by EA :-)

8) PVE needs also balancing - think of rpve/pve maps that you cant finish because your cards are to weak or impossible to get orbs

 

 

2.) When pvp will get active after the reset we will outnumber the low amount of speedrunners.

7.) I really absolutely dont see the point why you should be part of an voting about a pvp card, when you have exactly 0 idea about pvp. Now i have idea about speedrunning and i can repeat again: balancing doesnt make any sense in speedrunnings.

8.) So which map isnt possible to finish in normal pve? Whaaat? Indeed the normal pve needs some balancing. Nerfing too strong cards like Lost Spirit Ship that is getting abused in spam easily, amii monument where you can easily overgo one full tier like wtf? Its monumentcheating! Shadow Phoenix + Embalmers and so on. Pve is way too easy, especially in t4. Thats a problem you know. Do you even see it as a problem as a speedrunner? I guess nope. Why not? Simply because you are a speedrunner and dont want to miss such OP stuff for your faster time you want to have. 

 

 

In the end i was one speedrunner, i was and i am an top 10 player in pvp, i am an normal pve player. Now i vote for that only such players with this high amount of expertise should attend on the balancing discussion otherwise its a bit jokeless.

 

If just all can vote for the balancing, well it will be most of the time catastrophical i can say it already now. The result will be a "cat in the bag". It actually can be very good or very bad.

 

 

And somewhere you've said its not good for the weaker players when nerfing mortar. Believe me if we are nerfing mortar everybody only will profit. At guns of lyr at deff position for example it still would be strong enough even for an casual player that wants to beat the map on expert. So youre argumentation belonging to that is really jokeless. 

Edited by Deldrimor

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@Pritstift @wanky I think, it is better to just ignore @Kilian Dermoth . He already proved that he does not know what he is talking about. You can see this already in his first comment, how he throws around with wrong information and:

21 hours ago, Kilian Dermoth said:

(giant overcomplicated template, multiple forums, 1000s of bug reports and so on)

After this all the wrong information about speedrunning... Unfortunately some people spamming low quallity post. Thats why I recommend this order:

On 7/26/2019 at 12:15 AM, Halis said:
  • Devs and Community Managers
  • Player's who made really usefull suggestions in the past in the forum (like Treim, who wrote a lot of tutorials in the forum and made really good suggestions)
  • Highly skilled players, Speedrunners and Top PvP Players (like LEBOVIN and HighTech)
  • Players who are playing for a longer time, but are not really good at it
  • Players who started recently playing 

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I wouldnt say that amii monument is per se cheating, because it does what it was made for. Only on soul tree I see it as cheating because I doubt that it was intendet to skip the last part of the map. On one side I like the idea of the card and the card itself but I dont think its a good card as it is now, its even better than a real monument! Improvements could be to make it T4 so that it is used for 5 color decks only or make it temporarily like enlightement (a weaker enlightement available for all colors), maybe there are even better ideas.

I wouldnt take votes to serious, because they can be faked by multiaccounts and are usually more like an emotional desicion, than a rational one. Also I wouldnt make a difference who says what but more what the person says. If its reasonable for a PvP card but comes from a newbie speed runner its more worth than a bad idea from an expert PvP player.

For me its important to know why a change is made and whats the reasoning behind it (this way I think that the forum is better than discord, because you can come back and easily find the discussion about each card). Also its important that everyone could take part of the discussion even if only a few will do at the end. Votes could be used to see if its an accepted change by the comunity or not. But the descion must be made by someone who will be neutral and objective with the right priorities at best (I know its impossible).

Edited by Kilian Dermoth

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To be clear there will be no vote about specific changes to cards, eiter (almost)everyone agree, or we will decide how to proceed on case by case basis.

As I already said for me it is important why someone (do not )want something changed, and part of that reason can be players background PvE/PvP, of course if someone write whole reasoning there is no reason to think about the background, but most people do not write whole reason.

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balance changes dont really need to happen to the good cards, really just the useless garbage cards and also the garbage affinities, there is zero reason to buy some cards which is really noticeable if its a card with an affinity that is actually very useful.

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32 minutes ago, Halis said:

@Pritstift @wanky I think, it is better to just ignore @Kilian Dermoth . He already proved that he does not know what he is talking about. You can see this already in his first comment, how he throws around with wrong information and:

After this all the wrong information about speedrunning... Unfortunately some people spamming low quallity post. Thats why I recommend this order:

I absolutely agree. Same counts for Deldrimor :

15 minutes ago, Deldrimor said:

Best and fastest balance would be only if only the active top 15 in pvp can attend to discussion and votings. 

No words :-D :-D :-D

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28 minutes ago, Kubik said:

Should I create a discord server for that, and try it? because I still belive discord will be better for this. 

Maybe that's a good idea. Actually I voted in favor for the forum, but now it looks like discord would had been the better vote. It is already getting messy here

 

 

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Can this thread get a little less hostile?

I also don't agree with Deldrimor when he equals a high pvp rank with an ability to handle balancing decissions.

Here are some prime (pun not intended) examples of what i mean:

,,main tire was nature T1 cause its strongest''

,,if the player knows how to play and got the skills he can counter anything so pls cut it out... stop cry about cliffdancer''

,,bandits is absolut underrated''

These are quotes from top 10 players from this forum. They aren't all great at theocrafting like some might think.

(and i don't care for the bad spelling, it's only the content of theses quotes wich scares me)

Edited by SunWu II.
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41 minutes ago, Deldrimor said:

Repeating the same again and again. So again: EA never had the intention to balance stuff for speedrun. Never ever. The balancing focuse was always on pvp. So in consequence this line must be continued as common practice.

What? While I agree the PvP mode is the most sensitive one in terms of balancing it absolutely doesn't have to continue to be the central point of balancing. That's nonsense. Depending on how the playerbase turns out the PvP community might even end up being smaller than the PvE community so that could also be a consideration. There can absolutely be arguments for both sides, claiming that it MUST BE that way because it was that way doesn't hold much weight.

15 minutes ago, Deldrimor said:

Best and fastest balance would be only if only the active top 15 in pvp can attend to discussion and votings.

This suggestion only makes sense on the absolute surface level. A council like system could make the process faster but in no way is it certain that his would end up being the best for the games overall health. Cards and strategies can be of VASTLY different effective power when used at low, average or expert level of PvP play. If you decide to only balance top heavy then the balancing in lower level play could get massively skewed. PvP would most likely end up being incredibly beginner unfriendly. You have to consider all skill levels when attempting changes. You are for some reason assuming individual skill and intricate knowledge about cards and strategies in the top end of competition automatically come with the ability to think holistically, while in many cases the exact opposite is the case. You can think of some very skilled players as sitting on an island of expertise where they are indeed incredibly knowledgeable but because they are so invested into their particular field, they don't see or care for the big picture.

Just as an example, say a card is easy to use and very straight forward in its effect. Such a card would obviously see more play at the lower end of PvP. But at the higher levels opportunity costs and combinations are a much bigger consideration, people start coming up with calculations to make their decks and moves more efficient. Suddenly a simple card might not be very attractive anymore because its simplicity is limiting it. So then the top players might decide that this card is kinda weak because other options are much better if you actually heavily look into it. They vote to change the card to be viable in the top end and suddenly it might end up being completely busted and overpowered for beginners or too hard to use effectively.

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6 minutes ago, Cocofang said:

Cards and strategies can be of VASTLY different effective power when used at low, average or expert level of PvP play. If you decide to only balance top heavy then the balancing in lower level play could get massively skewed. PvP would most likely end up being incredibly beginner unfriendly.

There is no balance in low level PVP play. Players use the cards they know are strong in PVE. Then they see their 50 power units getting knocked back by an 150 power aggressor and then think aggressor is OP (wich of course is not). Balancing is impossible for this level of skill (if you want to balance it for the toplevel of skill at the same time)

Edited by SunWu II.
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Again guys just make separate balancing for pve and pvp, we already discussed that it works in terms of design. 

And for new players make a banner that tells them at the beginning 

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24 minutes ago, SunWu II. said:

There is no balance in low level PVP play. Players use the cards they know are strong in PVE. Then they see their 50 power units getting knocked back by an 150 power aggressor and then think aggressor is OP (wich of course is not). Balancing is impossible for this level of skill (if you want to balance it for the toplevel of skill at the same time)

I'd say that is straight up untrue. Sure, the environment gets more volatile the less people know what they are doing but there will still be prevailing approaches and metas.

Let's take that as a thought then. High level players consider Aggressor a bit too weak because it is 150 power bundled into a single unit that can be played around. Low level players consider Aggressor OP because it knocks their units around. Then lets say the high level players, which would be in charge of balancing in this example, say that Aggressor needs a bit of a buff, maybe reduce its cost a bit. Now it's more viable on the top end and sees occasional play. While suddenly it is completely out of control on the low end because all the new people are mesmerized by the constant CC for a lower cost.

This sort of thing can happen with any card or strategy. You have to take that into consideration unless you want to risk turning certain levels of competition into a serious cesspools. Top level players think about top level competition first and foremost. But a healthy game shouldn't be out of control on any skill level.

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