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What will become of the balance?


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[quote='ndclub' pid='2372' dateline='1435527799']
You cannot and would not be able to use the same decks in PVP and PVE effectively with or without separate balance for PVE and PVP. So don't worry about that going away. Most of the members on the forum are supportive of buffing the cards you listed as well. (though I can think of several far worse cards)
[/quote]

I am against splitting cards in two modes: as already mentioned by some, it will make the game incredibly more complex, especially for new players. To compensate for 'lost' PvE cards because of PvP balance a lot of cards can be buffed to make them more viable. I think I could, with ease, come up with over 10 cards that would make it into some PvE decks if they are (slightly) buffed.

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[quote='Pucchin' pid='2378' dateline='1435531244']
Like Northguards? Rly who played these guys when u had Master Archers not to mention most amii common cards was useless (twilight hag, bandit spearmen) or banditos (another northguards but t2 yay!) also lost shades were a bit overnerfed (but still they had place in my ls deck) and tortugun was almost useless too (it would be better to make him unsteable deamon like).
[/quote]

I think it is a fundamental issue that ranged S creatures have too many advantages over melee ones. You can basically throw anything against S melee creatures to make them completely useless. Knockback, root, big creatures, splash (because they always don't come alone and splitting is yet another issue with them).

And regarding Northguards, Master Archers are just stupidly strong. On U3 it has even better stats than Windweavers with double shot and they don't even have a counter! Even more, they are about 50% more efficient than Sunstriders. Just wtf were they thinking.
Banditos offer the same issue, only that S creatures suck even more in T2 and DA outclasses every single other S/S option.
Another sad thing about Banditos is that it is a spam unit that isn't spammable... great job phenomic balancing guy.


However, just because you can't use the cards it doesn't mean they are uselss. I used to have a Twilight pve deck with Treefiends + Twilight Hag and this combo was strong and extremely fun to play. And Bandit Spearmen are actually very good in pvp... only issue is that you have too many must takes in a Bandit deck to have ANY chance at all that you simply can't put them in.


First, Tortugun is a she! You can cast girlpower on her. Secondly, it was a ridiculously strong unit when you know how to profit from her. I had pure Bandit decks for rpve and pve and she + offernig rocked the entire map. A few bloodhorns + Lifeweaving to tank the damage while she just annihilates everything from afar.
With unholy Hero and against L creatures you can reach up to 37,800 (!!) damage. You just need to know how to use it.
Oh yeah, and don't forget life stealing.

I also don't get why people limit themself to one Tortugun... if you summon two of them at once, one will eat the other eventually which leaves you with one that has a full hunger bar.

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The issue about balancing is that every person (pro or developer) has a different opinion about it.
If i remember the old times... and how much I discussed with people like MaranV or Tyder (which are good players), but their mind was totally messed up. I guess they thought the same about me...

On a qualitative level it is impossible to make an real valid choice about buffing or nerving. The only valid way is by doing it on a quantative approach (statistics, win- lose-ratios,...)

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[quote='Obesity' pid='2666' dateline='1435856693']
The issue about balancing is that every person (pro or developer) has a different opinion about it.
If i remember the old times... and how much I discussed with people like MaranV or Tyder (which are good players), but their mind was totally messed up. I guess they thought the same about me...

On a qualitative level it is impossible to make an real valid choice about buffing or nerving. The only valid way is by doing it on a quantative approach (statistics, win- lose-ratios,...)
[/quote]

True, it's hard to please everyone.

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the only way which is NOT valid is going by win/loss ratio!

curse well has a low win ratio? buff it!
warriors death propably has a low winratio as well! buff it!
pure fire is a noobstomper and propably has high winrate, nerf it?
pure nature is in general weak, but deep one is in nearly every nature deck, does it need a buff maybe? but players are asking for a nerf?
bandits t3 has a high winrate? better nerf corsair!

cards which are core to the factions in general have the same win/loss ratio as their respective factions. maybe they are super broken? maybe they are just entirely fine? maybe they are week, but there is hardly an alternative to them? how could you know by looking at the numbers at all?

also going by winrate does not account for broken cards, such as curse well and warriors death, which nearly have no counterplay and are either brainless "i win" buttons ore just totally useless.

if you really want to balance battleforge, looking at numbers won't cut it. looking at cards won't cut it. looking at a single faction might not even be enough either. one has to be aware of the metagame, common builds and faction matchups. statistics are helpfull as an indicator, but their relevance is higly questionable.

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[quote='Obesity' pid='2666' dateline='1435856693']
The issue about balancing is that every person (pro or developer) has a different opinion about it.
If i remember the old times... and how much I discussed with people like MaranV or Tyder (which are good players), but their mind was totally messed up. I guess they thought the same about me...

On a qualitative level it is impossible to make an real valid choice about buffing or nerving. The only valid way is by doing it on a quantative approach (statistics, win- lose-ratios,...)
[/quote]

Yeah, I remember quite clearly how many times MaranV wanted to buff frost T1 lol
Once, I even made a picture dedicated to him ^^

[img]http://www11.pic-upload.de/02.07.15/33xbe1d3i7d4.png[/img]

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[quote='MarbSlonk' pid='2692' dateline='1435860834']
[quote='Aazrl' pid='2682' dateline='1435859750']
I belive that a T1 swift unit with S and splash attack and shield, that is activated near enemy unit should balance frost :)
[/quote]

Sure, for about 120 power or something? ;-)
[/quote]

120 power?! Come on, it should cost the same amount of power as Scavenger!

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[quote='Aazrl' pid='2693' dateline='1435861162']
[quote='MarbSlonk' pid='2692' dateline='1435860834']
[quote='Aazrl' pid='2682' dateline='1435859750']
I belive that a T1 swift unit with S and splash attack and shield, that is activated near enemy unit should balance frost :)
[/quote]

Sure, for about 120 power or something? ;-)
[/quote]

120 power?! Come on, it should cost the same amount of power as Scavenger!
[/quote]

a mini super-buffed avatar of frost? no thanks ;)

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I would buff lost shades, maybe adding siege, doubling hp and adding life steal would be enough to make them decent again. And maybe we should give northguards swift? Now they would be even playable. Also we should let war eagle be 1 frost and 1 splash orb again. Avatar of frost should get his shield 2 times faster too. And juggernaut should get stampade for 220 power.

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