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Fire Enemies in rPvE


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This thread is about the new fire enemies you face in rPvE. Ive played some lvl 9 and lvl 10 matches against them and in my opinion they are way too weak and really boring to play against.

They are particularly easy in rPvE 9 especially at the beginning you and your teammate can just rush T3 with a bunch of windweavers. Makeshift Towers dont even have S knockback(why?) !

The enemies you face later on are not much harder either just one frenetic assault will basically take care of an entire base. There is nothing even remotely challenging like

Willzappers,Lost Banestones/Dragons, Windhunters, Twilight Whisperers or any CC units or units that block spells and abillities.

The mighty Fire Faction should be at least as hard as Lost Souls in my opinion.

So here are my suggestions:

Give some fire units the abillity to use spells like Disenchant Inferno Lavafield and so on.

Make it harder to get to T2 and T3 especially on rPvE 9. 

Buff the bosses.

Increase the amount of enemies and spawn waves.

Let me know what you think !

 

 

 

Edited by Fimion
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Thx for your feedback.

We will maybe will  adjust some things in future. Especially that some units can Disenchant others could be considered.

Due to high damage, low Hp and no antispell building fire is verry weak to cc and damagespells and especially frenetic assault.

Its nothing special that u can rush t4 with t1 units + higher tier spell support.

Makeshift Towers with knockback would limit in deckbuilding by making "s" units straight up worse in rpve.

 

Kind regards 

 

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26 minutes ago, Emmaerzeh said:

Its nothing special that u can rush t4 with t1 units + higher tier spell support.

Yeah but its particularly easy on fire maps even easier than on most bandit maps.

You should add an XL t3 unit like Juggernaut or Spitfire or some L t3 units at t3 and t4.

Quote

Makeshift Towers with knockback would limit in deckbuilding by making "s" units straight up worse in rpve.

Lost Spellbreakers and Lost Vigils have S knockback too and i fight them with S units all the time.

 

Like i said the mighty Fire Faction should be at least as hard as Lost Souls in my opinion.

Right now its simply boring to fight vs Fire its no challenge at all even for 2 players on 4 player lvl 9 maps.

Btw here is a positive thing i really like that fire buildings and units use their abillities.

 

Edited by Fimion
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Thank you for your feedback. The things you mentioned are things I have experienced as well while testing. The set also falls off a cliff if you have the Incredible Mo and Wheel of Gifts; the combined damage reduction is insane vs a faction that relies only on damage.
But I am sure you will acknowledge that every faction in RPvE has different difficulties as bandits are notoriously the weakest. The aim was to open up a lot of strategies that don't revolve around meta cards like Frenetic, Infect or Wheel of Gifts, for example, as those cards are expensive and 'should' make maps easier. They should not trivialize the maps that I grant you. That all while staying true to the core idea that fire itself has no real cc. 
We tried to have Gladiatrix disenchant allies, but that did not work, and I am back to the drawing board on that matter.
We may buff the boss / normal units in the future. The goal was to have the difficulty be somewhere between Bandit and Twighlight, as I am sure that the coming factions will probably be harder than fire because they will use cc and healing on a larger scale.

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I've only played a dozen or so matches against the faction, so that's not enough to judge it conclusively, but so far it seems very well balanced to me. I have not only played the motm, but especially here the close camp situation at T4 comes to mind, without Frenetic (or until then) this is really crunchy. Yes, Frenetic settles almost everything against fire, but so does it against any other opponent, as Coco already said, different topic.
Some of the bosses are very nicely challenging, I've seen the one or other wipe and on the grinder boss in mini-speedrun I had some problems myself. As for the lower levels, I was quite surprised because of all the M-counters with the standard fire start how quickly my nomads are gone if I'm not careful. Sure, it's not rocket science - but it's not any easier than bandits, stonekin or twilight starts, rather a little harder. Sure it is WAY easier then a harder Lost Souls start, but I don't know if that is what people want 🙂

I can handle myself a Lost Souls Start with 2 Beast, 5 Dancers (outer lane) and 2 Shielders - but this scares most people a lot in 9s - not sure if it is desirable to push Fire into that direction.

All in all, I personally like the concept: A lot of damage and little HP (although it is not soooo little) very well, because gives a complete other feeling then fighting the other factions. Basically I would see Fire between Twilight and Lost Souls in terms of difficulty - a sweet spot in my opinion.

10s I have not played so far, only 9s. Just wanted to share the completely different impression that the OP has here.

 

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I dont know how other people feel about this but hard Lost Souls maps are the only rPvE 9 maps i really enjoy but unfortunately they are pretty rare.

I was hoping for Fire to be as challenging and fun as Lost Souls and thats why im so disappointed right now.

Now you might say "If lvl 9 is too easy for you simply play lvl 10" but for rPvE 10 you really need to find good players that work together especially on hard maps where you get instantly attacked even without spawning a unit. And sometimes its pretty hard to find good players. Most lvl 9 maps are so easy that basically any player with any deck can win and many lvl 10 maps are so hard that if you play with random players you just cant win.

Here is another suggestion: Create a difficulty level between 9 and 10 where all enemy factions are as hard as difficult lvl 9 Lost Souls maps or even a bit harder. So you can play challenging matches with random people and still have a good chance of winning.

 

 

 

Edited by Fimion
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I only encoutert the fire nation 2 times in Rpve 9 4 players yet, but i really liked what you pulled togehter. I encoutert the Fire Dancer Boss and she seemed to use spells with a Plan? She uses Global Warming against my ice shields and i loved it! I think Bosses where decently balanced but the "normal" units could get a little buff. 

My idea would be that offence is the defence of the fire Nation, so maybe make their attacks much stronger. I don´t know if this is desireble with the defence rpve "on the way" but i guess that would be fitting and make fire a lot stronger especially in the early tiers.

 

But like i said only 2 games yet ....

 

And i wanted to let you know that i really love new factions for rpve, i was excited like a litte child when i first encouterd them. I instanly made screenshots and send them to my brother who had to work to brag about it xD Keep it going like that, you are Amazing!

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15 hours ago, Emmaerzeh said:

Makeshift Towers with knockback would limit in deckbuilding by making "s" units straight up worse in rpve.

Thats a point I kinda agree but... The stoneskin crystals knockback, the lost dancers and the Vigils too, and we just deal with them through CC and micro.

Maybe you can adjust the rate how often the Towers appear to a balanced level but give them their knockback. I'm sure we can handle it while making it a little more challenging.

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I am also not happy with how weak the fire faction is in rPvE 9 and i am not a very skilled player. You dont need Frenetic Asssault + Infect to easily deal with the fire enemies all you really need is Curse of Oink and Healing Gardens maybe Stone Shell which are all cheap cards  and the fire faction can do absolutely nothing against you. Their high damage output gets completely negated by healing spells and buildings and damage reduction spells and of course CC spells. I'm not a very good player and on some LS maps i really struggle and sometimes i even lose but when i win it really feels like an accomplishment even some bandit maps can be pretty hard for example when there are a lot of Windhunters. 

But on fire maps nothing can hurt you if you use the cards i just mentioned not even the bosses i just played the 4 player lvl 9 motm at Pos 1 without a teammate and i had absolutely no problems dealing the the double base at T4 even tho i was still T3. All i used was Healing Gardens Stone Shell Lost Horrors and Surge of Light. I first oinked the Spitfires and went straight for the  spawn then i used Stone Shell and healed my units with Surge of Light i didnt even need Equilibrium. 

You could give some fire units CC immunity and make the entire fire faction more aggressive what i mean by that is much larger spawn waves much larger bases with powerful towers and lots of enemies. As already mentioned T2 and T3 bases are a joke and you can always rush with T1 units which doesnt always work vs Bandits or at least not that easily.

To me it really feels like the devs tried to make the fire faction as noob friendly as possible.

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2 hours ago, Fundus said:

To me it really feels like the devs tried to make the fire faction as noob friendly as possible.

That is definitely not the case. As you have hopefully noticed, it was not just a matter of just copy/pasting units in and calling it a day. Designing and balancing a faction for rpve, especially pure fire, is a tricky thing to do, especially with a small internal test base. Now that it has released to the public, we are gathering more feedback and will adjust accordingly. 

I encourage everyone to share what they like and dont like, but please keep in mind the team poured hours upon hours into this. BattleForge has a lot of moving parts, and getting everything right the first time is just a tricky thing to do. 🙂 

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31 minutes ago, Majora said:

That is definitely not the case. As you have hopefully noticed, it was not just a matter of just copy/pasting units in and calling it a day. Designing and balancing a faction for rpve, especially pure fire, is a tricky thing to do, especially with a small internal test base. Now that it has released to the public, we are gathering more feedback and will adjust accordingly. 

I encourage everyone to share what they like and dont like, but please keep in mind the team poured hours upon hours into this. BattleForge has a lot of moving parts, and getting everything right the first time is just a tricky thing to do. 🙂 

Sorry if this sounded a bit rude this was definitly not my intention i really appreciate what you people are doing.

 

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  • 1 month later...

After playing a few days again too much rpve I have to come back to this topic once again. 🙂

More and more I can't understand this "Fire is to easy" thing. Many people that I see struggle with the high damage output of the fire faction. I see a comparable amount of wipes against Fire then I see against Lost Souls. Even some above average players struggle if they come with (solid) non-meta decks.

Meta decks struggle partly too, especially when they bring the standard Fire T1 which can perform nicely but must be played very clean. Same for usual FireT1 vs T3 bases - the meta here is countered very well and only works when it is played super clean. Don't get me wrong, that's all doable tasks, but playing random groups I see a complete different picture then Fundus and the TO do see here.

And for the Bosses I see even the total opposite for this beast "Abbadon" - he is unfair strong and wipes most solo or duo engages in the first attempt, as his damage is overpowered high. I think I cleared him 2 times in the first approach in all the times that I met him and have seen the same for other players. This counts too for very strong and known above average players.

The only safe engage is in maps where the last row is a long line where all 4 players naturally gather and walk the path together, but even here I saw very close calls. Another quite safe engage is when you have a Nature (big heals) and a pure Frost player (both big shields) have huge armys or support a boss killer like Bloodhorns - all paired with a running Shrine of War to throw in all the mass heals and shields and the boss is down very fast.

When he stays as he is, I am quite sure some of us will learn to approach him better and better - no question. We will find ways to deal with him. But in the end we would have the same situation as for example a T3 Lost Souls camp, with Vigils, a double spawn on it, that is close to the outer lanes T2 - doable for some of us, while most players just feel desperate how to engage such situations. Or an even better comparison would perhaps be a LS BG10 with Vigils on T2. Yes this is doable, by roughly (if at all) 10 players on this server. Do we really want to tighten things that much?


I already start to read "Oh no fire" as the "Oh no Lost Souls" that we have. I personally still feel the faction is very well balanced and like the complete different feeling to fight them with their high damage output but therefore low HP. I am a big fan of learning how to deal with that instead of running away anything that is harder then a Bandit map with single spawn lanes on T3 - but making fire harder would not have a bit support from me. And according to Abbadon - please consider if his AoE dmg can nerfed to a point where a good player can heal/shield against it if he brings his spells on point. It feels unfair if 3 Players throw in heals and still a strong army is wrecked like nothing.

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I have faced the fire faction in 4 player PvE lvl9 many times in the last weeks and i stand behind what i originally wrote. People who struggle vs the fire faction simply dont know how deal with it but once you know how to counter it it becomes very easy. Fire units like Batariel and Fire Dragons are only a problem if you allow them to do damage all you have to do is CC them and kill them before they can do damage.

Getting to T3 is very easy too when im on position 1 or 4 i can easily clear T3 alone i dont even need a teammate. T4 double bases are easy too all you need are some good T3 units like Lost Horror and CC + heal and you will win every time even without a teammate. I usually play nature T1 so i cant tell how hard it is with fire T1.

Abaddon is really the only hard thing on fire maps when i face him i usually retreat and wait for my teammate so we can attack together.

Edited by Fundus
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I don’t think fire is too weak. I’d rather play against LS than against fire. I do not play meta decks atm and fire is really very unpleasant  enemy with all their debuffs, broken bosses(Fire has the strongest bosses among every other enemy facrion) and super huge body counts on t4 camps.

Seriously, I wiped more against fire than LS, LS has almost nothing on t4 if you have incredible Mo. Even simple XL body mass of LS is not comparable to Fire (talking about last camps).

First orbs are pretty easy to get, but that’s mostly because early fire units are trash (sunstriders do nothing, skyfires are joke). 

Overall I’m very fine with fire faction! Good job on balancing 

Edited by SpiritAlpha
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I'd like to give the following video a little more context than the thread here, which of course it relates to.

Of course, I could have played this better, we played a casual round with casual decks and had a nice chat in the Voice about everything and anything. I was a bit distracted.

The Batariel skill was already placed and was supposed to hit the back third of the camp, usually a good idea since the Batariel burns away the whole frontline of a camp while delivering good damage to half the camp. Usually...
And yes, I could have had about 5k more HP on the board, 500 energy reserve was a bit high. However, this situation looked different just a few seconds before, my SoW (which also tie up another 300 energy) had just supplied me with fresh energy again. As a pure fire player, I need something for my sustain - which admittedly could be played a bit better here - and for a fast bata skill- since I depend on fast voidreturn (a.k.a. "kills") on the one hand and since every dead enemy also takes damage out on me.
Unity was running out 1 second before the Fire Sphere hit me. Shame on me. Really.
But, let's imagine that the Bata skill would have been aimed centered, Unity would have been reactivated and I would have had 20,250 HP standing there instead of 15,050 HP. I would have felt way better presenting it, but would it have turned the battle around - let everyone answer this question for themselves 😉

Well and my goodness, if Frenetic/Infect can handle any situation, why doesn't the Volin play it....? 😛

Btw - Brannoc is a great boss, that's not a vote for changing anything here. It's just a small example of Fire's firepower and how quickly it can go to shit.

 

PS: And just btw, this was my 217th match with pure fire. I have the good experience that in such situations additional Emberstrikes in the mix, that provide 2,6k HP for 120 Energy, are a WAY better meatshield as the commonly played Fire Dragons, that have 2,4HP for 250 Energy. So the vast majority of fire players would have had 2 Batariels and 2 Fire Dragons in the game here at this point.... (Or one Batariel and 3 Fire Dragons)
You can imagine how the situation would have turned out, right? 😄

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