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Remove the BG10 achievement please


Volin

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3 hours ago, Volin said:

Fire can not only solve your problems, but also the problems of your mate, what makes it absolutely superior as starting option imo.

And it will stay that way which is fine. I think the biggest detractor of versatility in a game(mode) is when there is somewhat regularly occuring scenarios where no matter how good you play options(in this case factions) become unplayable or rely heavily on support (of especially meta solutions) which further incentivizes the meta solution.
That doesn't even mention that it is also less fun to know that basically every 10th or so map there is basically nothing you can do yourself and need help from others.
Allowing every faction to at least be (more or less) solo playable against "normal" scenarios in game is probably the best thing you can do to enhance playrates of those factions. That won't make them the most popular faction by a longshot but at least you open up the possibility of playing these in random groups without frustrating everyone from the getgo.
I think in a secondary step you could introduce changes to Shadow, Nature and frost to make them more viable in 10's but those will also have to be considered in other scenarios. The "quick and dirty" solution to the problem described above and my last post is to just remove vigils as a possibility at t2 which from what i remember the code structure of rPvE maps to be, is fairly easy. (correct me if I'm wrong as I am not really involved in this stuff anymore for at least 2 years or so)

Edited by Treim
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I still think a small increase to the timer would already open up 10s for more decks (reliably).

I personally don't think LS air maps are the biggest problem. On the one hand it is a rare thing to happen and still the motm that were like this were some of the most enjoying motms ever. Plus it comes to addition that even the best groups I played in usually decided to skip those if they occur randomly or if we tried them we failed hard every single time.

I think a possible solution for more diversity could be a slightly increased timer and/or little more starting energy to reduce waiting game. 

Even if you play meta decks the timer is really harsh on harder maps.

For sure 10s can and should have a certain fail rate, but just in my humble opinion it could be a little bit lower, just slightly.

This changes would be quite simple and make more diversity possible.

 

 

Btw were drifting off like crazy here 😁

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3 hours ago, Volin said:

I still think a small increase to the timer would already open up 10s for more decks (reliably).

That is true, would especially open up deck versatility for t2-t4 though.  If we just talk about diversity in t1, I still think the biggest problem is that 3 factions can get somewhat reliably in situations that are completely unplayable and fire also has a really hard time (at least in random matches). A secondary effect my proposed change on the game could have though, is that non fire starts are still slower than fire and with increased occurence of these in single matches a slight increase in game time might become necassary to further enable the viability of these changes anyway, especially if the assumption is that at least some more varitey in t2-t4 strategies is valued.

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I personally don't think LS air maps are the biggest problem. On the one hand it is a rare thing to happen and still the motm that were like this were some of the most enjoying motms ever. Plus it comes to addition that even the best groups I played in usually decided to skip those if they occur randomly or if we tried them we failed hard every single time.

For Motm's I agree. I just think (and as you mentioned already) if those are basically unplayable in random play you have a problem entirely. I guess the question is what you want to balance 10's around - random play or motm play. Personally I think random play is the way to go. If even the best teams have insane fail rates, you either have a massive player skill issue (wouldn't assume that) or a balancing issue imo.
Also just removing Vigils, only really trivialize things for mostly fire t1. Especially Shadow and Frost and to a lesser extent nature will still have a really hard time if it's just twilight brains + 3 Treefiends/Mana beasts + Lost Dancers + Shields. It is just going from blatantly unplayable to extremely difficult. Obviously teamplay is still advised in those situations as well, it's just not strictly mandatory.

I think the key questions in terms of balance philosophy to be answered are:

Balance around motm's or random play.
Is a broadening of viable strategies for Motm 10 wanted, if yes in which stage of a match (t1, t2-3, post t4) and by how much (also for each individual stage).

--> TL;DR increasing t1 viability by removing vigils and further incentivizing deck viability by minor time limit changes is probably the most efficient way forward for random play imo. If only argued from a t1 perspective I'd probably still say that Vigils are the single biggest hindrance.
If you prioritize Motm you probably can do nothing for t1 realistically besides rebalancing t1 of nature, frost, shadow (would also solve the t1 issue in random play). Overall deck variability would still increase by increasing the time limit.
 

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I think a possible solution for more diversity could be a slightly increased timer and/or little more starting energy to reduce waiting game. 

Increased timer or higher starting energy basically is the same change, though starting energy only really makes sense up to a certain point

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Btw were drifting off like crazy here 😁

Always glad to derail a thread

 

Also that's all I have to say on this, so I'll just go back into my retirement home. See ya in another year or until I randomly stumble upon the forums again and see an interesting thread

Edited by Treim
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Another solution could be selectable difficulty levels for rPvE 9 and 10 maps like on campaign maps.

For rPvE 10 for example: Standard: Only easy bandit maps that most lvl 9 players can beat.

                                       Advanced: Anything between easy bandits and Lost Vigils insta attack maps.

                                       Expert: Maps where 1 player instantly gets attacked by air units Lost Vigils on LS                                                 maps Windhunters on bandit maps Skyfire Drakes on fire maps and so on.

 

Edited by Fundus
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On 3/3/2023 at 2:44 PM, Fundus said:

Another solution could be selectable difficulty levels for rPvE 9 and 10 maps like on campaign maps.

For rPvE 10 for example: Standard: Only easy bandit maps that most lvl 9 players can beat.

                                       Advanced: Anything between easy bandits and Lost Vigils insta attack maps.

                                       Expert: Maps where 1 player instantly gets attacked by air units Lost Vigils on LS                                                 maps Windhunters on bandit maps Skyfire Drakes on fire maps and so on.

 

I kind of looked through all the maps and sorted them. Kind of like you suggested it. Also if there are camps at t3 and if there are bosses at t3.

Offered the excel sheet on the forum, there were about 50 maps in each difficulty, took a while to do it. For more maps there might be some automated sorting system needed or a bunch of time.

Edited by Buddelmuddel
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  • 2 months later...

Random idea (as the problem occurs again because the motm is very easy)

How would it be to hide the BG10 Achievement behind the sub10min shoe on 9s?

That players have definitely learned the game and are ready to step up to 10s and could get encouraged via an achievement to do so.

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20 minutes ago, Volin said:

Random idea (as the problem occurs again because the motm is very easy)

How would it be to hide the BG10 Achievement behind the sub10min shoe on 9s?

That players have definitely learned the game and are ready to step up to 10s and could get encouraged via an achievement to do so.

I personally don't think that this is a good idea. Beating a 9 very fast does not neccesarrily mean that you can beat most 10s. Also, you need a good team in order to beat a 9 in sub 10min, which most players just don't have. And you can be qualified for 10s without having 3 speedrunner friends. This would gatekeep the vast majority out of ever trying the achievement.

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4 minutes ago, Metagross31 said:

 This would gatekeep the vast majority out of ever trying the achievement

That is what I personally would wish, yes. That was the topic here.

TO was "please delete it asap and forever"

Still have not much hope, but sharing other ideas as they come to my mind

 

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2 hours ago, Dolewan said:

Why not just put the 10s booster achievement behind the 10s time achievement...? You can only do the booster achievement when you have done BG10 under 12 minutes. 

You can discuss details, but the general idea is not bad and would be an improvement

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  • 1 month later...

Reeks of Elitism and Gatekeeping, sorry.
Losing is part of the game and life. Removing an achievement just so certain players don't join your game, wtf? Let people try the gamemode, and if you fail, you can point out what went wrong. You can also instruct them beforehand.

It's not bad to have an achievement in the game that's actually hard, you know? It's a good thing that it exists, as it creates incentive for people to try out a different mode other than rPvE9.

My vote is to have it stay. Deal with your losses and your teammates.

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In any other game a beginner wouldn't join a pro or semi pro game, if you did and asked these players to instruct you beforehand you would get kicked out of the lobby. The first thing they would say is learn basics first before rejoining. rPvE 10 is not a beginner mode that you can just 'try', it is the hardest mode in the game and extremely unforgiving. rPvE 10 requires a high deck level, a semi-meta or meta deck so you can hold your own and not be a liability to your team. If you would like to try the rPvE 10 then there is the 1p option but to join a 4p rPvE 10 and expect to be carried to get your boosters is being selfish. Veteran 10s players are actually being bullied by new players when we say they need to learn the basics before joining 10s.

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14 hours ago, ManGa said:

Reeks of Elitism and Gatekeeping, sorry.
Losing is part of the game and life. Removing an achievement just so certain players don't join your game, wtf? Let people try the gamemode, and if you fail, you can point out what went wrong. You can also instruct them beforehand.

It's not bad to have an achievement in the game that's actually hard, you know? It's a good thing that it exists, as it creates incentive for people to try out a different mode other than rPvE9.

My vote is to have it stay. Deal with your losses and your teammates.

If my experience would be that people join and say "Hey I'm new to this, can you help?" I would not have opened the thread, cause I'm always willing to help with this topic if people did just do a min 'homework'.

What we see these days are often groups that are not even willing to speak about who takes which shrines.

And if we speak about people that are not willing to learn a halfway suiting deck or basic spawnrules in 9 - I don't want to waste my time with that.

Sad but true, this has taken my motivation for random 10s sadly, tho it was always the most enjoying thing in BaFo to me, cause even good groups could get here into troubles sometimes.

 

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15 hours ago, Volin said:

If my experience would be that people join and say "Hey I'm new to this, can you help?" I would not have opened the thread, cause I'm always willing to help with this topic if people did just do a min 'homework'.

What we see these days are often groups that are not even willing to speak about who takes which shrines.

And if we speak about people that are not willing to learn a halfway suiting deck or basic spawnrules in 9 - I don't want to waste my time with that.

Sad but true, this has taken my motivation for random 10s sadly, tho it was always the most enjoying thing in BaFo to me, cause even good groups could get here into troubles sometimes.

 

Alright I was a bit harsh in my response, I am sorry.

I agree that sometimes people are silent, and then also not ask for help and simply leave on the first loss on rpve10.
I think it's fine to play with beginners and lose 1-3 rounds of Lvl 10.

In my experience, 1-3 tries on rpve10 is what it takes to get used to the differences to rpve9.
I was curious about it today, so I tried out 2p rpve10 today. And the experience was really just 3~ matches to see how it works.

Basically it just boils down to the initial phase being the hardest. Succesfully taking the T2 monument is the main challenge, after that you usually steamroll it.
The difference to rpve9 boils down to:
1) You pool a lot of energy and don't move out until a) you have fat army or b) You got lot of energy for spell support for teammate
2) Once you took T2, it gets very easy.
3) You are probably required to have Shrine of War and keep it 100% uptime.

 

Other than that, it plays out 100% the same as rpve9. Once you get T4, you just deathball around the map and spam spells with Shrine of War and focus spawn buildings first. It really is just the early game that is changed by having to idle at spawn and waiting for energy that is different.

That isn't a super hard game mode, just a different strategy required. But yes, you probably need an upgraded deck and more Mainstream Decks for it (Shrine of War should be used)

Again, that doesn't take long to explain to beginners. They still need the practical experience of course, but that's just a few matches. At least that's what it took us for 2p Rpve10.

 

 

Edit: In my opinion the gamemode should be changed. It's not fun to just idle and watch YT videos for the first 2-3 minutes while pooling energy. This applies to some expert campaign missions as well. Sometimes you really just can't do anything but wait for energy, which is boring. The timelimit should be reduced, and the starting void energy increased to reduce this annoying idle time.

I'm capable of clearing rpve10, but I find rpve9 to be more fun. More deck variety allowed, and less idle sitting in the early game..

Edited by ManGa
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Please note that this month's 2p motm 10 is extremely easy and can be beaten with any deck, I cleared the entire T3 & T4 row with just 3 phoenixes. Even the post T4 camps were super easy, similar to a rPvE 9. Sadly 80-90% of rpve 10 maps are much much harder than this one.  Even the current 4p for a LS map is nowhere near as hard as it could be, myself and a few other guys beat it comfortably first attempt yet I know of another player newish to 10s playing a non-meta deck who's played it multiple times and has yet to beat it. Volin, myself and all other veteran players are more than happy to teach people to play 10s if they come in with solid 9s experience and a meta deck.  We are talking about they players with Level 30 stonekin deck or pure nature decks which will clearly not cut it in 10s, expect to be carried and are there just for the boosters. rPvE 10 is not a beginner mode, we shouldn't need to have to cater it to beginners, it is an advanced mode. If anyone wants to label me an rPvE snob then I'll take it on the chin because anyone who knows me will know how many players I've taught.

Edited by Little_Ducky
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Alright, I understand. Everyone can make their own rules, I suppose. But asking for the achievement to be removed outright is too much..
It's good to have these difficult achievements to give people an incentive to actually play rpve10, I still stand by that. Trying to get it removed just so new players stop joining experienced players lobbies doesn't seem right to me. It came off elitist/gatekeepy.

As of right now, in terms of effort vs reward there is no reason to play rpve10. So the reward of boosters through the achievement is nice. I would actually like to see it become a repeatable quest (with less boosters on successive clears, ofc)

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I would like to touch of this concept of reward vs effort. My highly experienced friend and I just took 2 random players through some rPvE 10s, one  was a new player playing a really bad stonekin deck even for rpve 9, the other is a veteran with a solid 3 Fire orb deck. Neither of them have ever played 10s before,  this was evident in the first game. These 2 players truly highlighted the issue with this achievement. Our new stonekin player was super arrogant and kept commenting how easy this was and that they cleared their T2 by themselves, please note this was onenof the easiest possible bandit 10, didn't even have flying t2. They pretty much ran behind me collecting their t3 & T4 orbs, being a nuisance by coldsnapping the enemy while I'm diving with my phoenixes and late game freezing my frenetics. After the game, they said "see that was easy, I best 10s easily", needless to say I kicked them. They had no interest in being a team player, had almost no game knowledge and was clearly there for the achievement boosters. On the other hand we had our humble veteran, who immediately acknowledged his deck was not suited for 10s and asked to clone our decks and learn to play it properly. We then took him through another 2 games, we lost but we didn't care because we had heaps of fun showing him how to play. With his rank he clearly wasn't playing 10s for the boosters, he was willing to put in the effort required. Going into rpve 10 with the mindset of putting in minimal effort and wanting rewarded for it is the wrong mindset. I liken this to the mindset where new players expect to be carried through expert maps for their achievements. Unlike maps 1 weak link in 10s can undo 3 other player's efforts, so people should think about that when commenting on elitism. 

Edited by Little_Ducky
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  • 2 months later...
5 hours ago, TheOGstriker said:

iv got 2 out of the 10 maps done please done get rid of it... i like how hard it is im gold 4 and im sorry but some of the players just  arnt as good yet, dont get mad they join, teach them to play. the challenge is fun...

 

If you want to learn 10s, just for the challenge, feel free to hit me up anytime. Here, on Discord (sirvolin), or ingame.

But believe me we had a much healthier 10s scene before this achievement hit.

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