Shrine of War

[Ponni 33]

1 hour ago, Danol said:

Yep, you're absolutely right. With 2 SoW in a game, the void power mechanic might as well not exist at all. The same applies if other void power shrines get buffed to the level of SoW. Void power was meant to impose a delay on power reusage, that is obviously not working if you can get your void power back nearly instantaneous.

A simple comparison: Without any buffs, the void power regeneration is 1% per second, so to regenerate 99% of void power you need 459s. With Shrine of Memory constantly up it takes 152s. With SoW, it's 21 units killed. 5.25 kills per player on a 4 player map. How long does it take 4 players to kill 21 units on average, while on t3? Even if it took 30s it's still 5 times as powerful as Shrine of Memory. Even if you have only 1 SoW it totaly outperforms Shrine of Memory. It does not require the attention of Furnace + Cultist Master, it does not require specific cards/playstyles like Shrine of Martyrs, but also outperforms both and can be splashed easier. That's just insane. All that for a meager 300 energy, the cost of one (!) Great Wyrm.

But, of course, there are always those people who think too much is not enough.

Oh btw: Buffing the other void power refund options is not power creep, that's a power avalanche. It would be easier to just remove the whole void power mechanic, reduce spell cost by 90% and make units refund 90% of their power immediately upon death, because that's basically the same effect.

Because they serve the same purpose: Void power management.

Please stop it now. This void manipulation has been there from the start of the game, I guess it was developed as a feature. Funny then 12-ish years later we found this to be a problem...

// Ponni

Edited Wednesday at 08:39 PM by Ponni
Slight clarification...

[Danol 15]

The original game lasted for only 4 years, all the time in between then and now is meaningless. Btw. there was a SoW discussion back then but, as you might remember, there were a bunch of balancing issues that the original devs did not care about for ages. Wheel of Gift stacking, for example. Past ignorance is no excuse for current ignorance.

Btw. yes, void power management was developed as a feature - not complete void power negation. That's why none of the other void power management tools is nearly as powerful as SoW.

 

[DieToPlay 56]

13 minutes ago, Danol said:

The original game lasted for only 4 years, all the time in between then and now is meaningless. Btw. there was a SoW discussion back then but, as you might remember, there were a bunch of balancing issues that the original devs did not care about for ages. Wheel of Gift stacking, for example. Past ignorance is no excuse for current ignorance.

Btw. yes, void power management was developed as a feature - not complete void power negation. That's why none of the other void power management tools is nearly as powerful as SoW.

 

Explain to me what are the bonuses of nerfing the void manipulation system.

[Danol 15]

10 hours ago, Kapo said:

I guess the smartest thing to do would be to

a) Bring it in line with the other shrines in regard of orb requirement (FFX)
b) Slightly reduce the return to bring it closer to the other shrines

Even under those conditions it can still be the strongest of the shrines but not THAT far off anymore.

Somehow I did not notice this comment before, so my response is a bit late. Whatever ...

Just slightly reducing the return (without further changes to the buff) would not bring it in line with the others. Goind with the 15% refund per kill, you can still get 100% refund every 30s.

Take a look at what would happen if all my suggestions were implemented and only one player with SoW is on the map (basically the worst case for SoW). Everyone still gets a 100% return of void power every 60s for the cost of 150 energy (you'd need 28 kills for that, which is doable in 30s, especially in a 4 player map - just 7 kills per player). Shrine of Memory gives one player 84% return in 60s for 200 energy. Shrine of Greed gives everyone 75% over 60s for 200 energy. (For comparison: Without any of these, you'll get back 45% of void power over 60s.) SoW would still give the most void power for the least energy cost of these 3 shrines, for every player on the map.

Shrine of Martyrs could yield more, but also restricts your playstyle more, so I'm okay with that - opportunity costs are significantly higher, so it should yield more.

[Ponni 33]

4 minutes ago, Danol said:

Somehow I did not notice this comment before, so my response is a bit late. Whatever ...

Just slightly reducing the return (without further changes to the buff) would not bring it in line with the others. Goind with the 15% refund per kill, you can still get 100% refund every 30s.

Take a look at what would happen if all my suggestions were implemented and only one player with SoW is on the map (basically the worst case for SoW). Everyone still gets a 100% return of void power every 60s for the cost of 150 energy (you'd need 28 kills for that, which is doable in 30s, especially in a 4 player map - just 7 kills per player). Shrine of Memory gives one player 84% return in 60s for 200 energy. Shrine of Greed gives everyone 75% over 60s for 200 energy. (For comparison: Without any of these, you'll get back 45% of void power over 60s.) SoW would still give the most void power for the least energy cost of these 3 shrines, for every player on the map.

Shrine of Martyrs could yield more, but also restricts your playstyle more, so I'm okay with that - opportunity costs are significantly higher, so it should yield more.

Can you do something for me? Prove to me that you can, consistently and not like every 10th try, beat a 4p rPvE level 10 map without current SoW (or for that matter a team of 4 players doing FoF + Cultists). Once you prove that it actually can be done consistently, lets continue this discussion.

// Ponni

[Danol 15]

I don't even see how this is relevant to the discussion? If a map is impossible to beat without one specific card, then thats a problem with the map. A card being mandatory would be a proof that it's op, because it explicitly shows that no other card has comparable power. So even if you're right you'd just proven yourself wrong about SoW.

 

[Ponni 33]

8 minutes ago, Danol said:

I don't even see how this is relevant to the discussion? If a map is impossible to beat without one specific card, then thats a problem with the map. A card being mandatory would be a proof that it's op, because it explicitly shows that no other card has comparable power. So even if you're right you'd just proven yourself wrong about SoW.

 

Wow, I am right but wrong? So, that must mean you are wrong but right?

For the sake of it, as you do not think it is relevant, should we then scrap 4p level 10 or what? Or how do you want to solve it?

// Ponni

[Danol 15]

If (and thats a big if) this one card is absolutely neccessary for rpve 10, then rpve 10 needs to be rebalanced. That applies even if SoW remains unchanged, because such a design is just a fail.

Btw no I'm not "wrong but right", simply because I never made a claim about rpve 10 that I could even be wrong about.

 

Edited Wednesday at 11:12 PM by Danol

[Ponni 33]

39 minutes ago, Danol said:

If (and thats a big if) this one card is absolutely neccessary for rpve 10, then rpve 10 needs to be rebalanced. That applies even if SoW remains unchanged, because such a design is just a fail.

Btw no I'm not "wrong but right", simply because I never made a claim about rpve 10 that I could even be wrong about.

 

Haha, "a big if", "rpve 10 needs to be rebalanced", you can still prove me wrong you know. Heck, I could even join you for a few tries for the sake of it. Ping me ingame and lets try it, then we could learn something perhaps.

Anyhow, discussion is over here for my part, I will trust the Skylords balancing team do have all knowledge required, including 4p level 10. 

// Ponni

Edited Wednesday at 11:51 PM by Ponni

[Cocofang 118]

The original game had a business model where the goal was to make people buy BFP to get the powerful cards so they would intentionally tune the game around their existence to give people an incentive to spend money so even Timmy 2-fingers can somewhat reliably do content.

Add to that, that they evidently didn't care about their initial design when it came to making a quick buck while the ship was sinking, so they straight up threw the concept of having a T3 out of the window as well.

So now we are left with a corpse twisted and mangled by the attempts to squeeze some more drops of blood out of it. The corporate tentacles still run deep within the game. Remember, it was entirely built on top of a lootbox scheme. It is a given that the design was influenced by this basis.

As such, a concept like "We will offer them a purchasable way for their convenience to negate a game system we put in place" is absolutely thinkable. So are those remnants still justified in their existence today?