The Instant T2 Button in PvP

[YaBro0]

Hello fellow Skylords,

I didn't know where to put this since it should suit more in the balancing section but is not a card problem. 

I have played quite a bit in the last week and something that feels like hasn't happened that often before is occuring almost every game now. The Instant T2 in PvP to avoid a possible early loss or abuse a certain T2 scenario seems to be around quite a lot. I know it might be because I started playing nature recently and people are scared of dazed fights against nature. 

But...

for the record. After facing an uncountable number of Instant T2's this week, it reached it's peak with 13 (!) Instant T2's in about 2 and a half hours of play today. So this is definately a rage Post  

So what's the problem with that?

1.  T2 Matchup abuse. Matchups like Pure Nature vs Fire/Nature, Bandits vs Burrowerspam, Pure Fire vs Pure Frost, are historically very onesided and even an advatage in T2 is rarely enough to overcome those matchups. By skipping the more balanced and skill reliant T1 which can at least overcome certain matchups by very good micro, it becomes a rock/paper/scissor from the start which is often unavoidable.

2. T2 Map abuse. I am talking about possible cliff spots at the starting base for cards like Mountaineer, Firedancer... on Wazhai, Simai or Maps were taking those positions is very liekly needed. But I am also talking about center map abusing like on Elyon or other generated Maps. 

This is in my oppinion the reason behind Frost and Nature T1 still being overlooked and outclassed by shadow and Fire T1. They are very flexible and swift in controlling the positions early and can therefore possibly punish an Instant T2 more reliabily than the other factions while also abusing that control against them. For example playing a frost or Nature T1 on Elyon against an Instant T2 Fire or Shadow Player will always result in a loss of Mapcontrol and that control is a huge advantage on some Maps. You can rush lower ranked players but the higher the ELO the less likely your success until it becomes unneccessary to even try.

Of course I have my bias towards T1 since I enjoy playing it, because it requires more precision and mistakes have bigger impacts. But wouldn't you agree that the only time a certain T2 Matchup has a good chance on winning is the T1? 

I would suggest something like a 2-3min Delay on the first Monument in PvP (stole that from Ultrakool^^) or an increased power cost to 180 overall.

But my favourite would be to make scorched earth a neutral card

What is your oppinion on that Topic?

 

 

Edited January 28, 2021 by YaBro0

[Zappyx]

I certainly recognize this, although Shadow going quick T2 isn't the worst outcome as I think they do have a slight edge in the T1 matchup. Like you said, on Elyon it's pretty hard to get map control as Shadow will always be faster there. But I don't really recognize why Fire & Shadow don't want to go in dazed fights with Nature, as their eruption and nasty spells kill of dazed units quite effectively. The problem lies more that when Nature spawns a second unit to get ready for the T1 fight they can turn around and claim some advantage due to Nature T1 bounded units and Nature can't really punish the quick T2.

Also, there is quite some fear that losing the T1 fight against Nature means losing the game (only on small maps imo).  The other way around is if Nature loses the T1 fight the game is often also over  (--> Different tangent: maybe looter has a place in Nature vs Fire T1, if Fire loses the fight but still was able to loot some power the game is definitely not over)

I addressed to the PVP balancing team (on the discord server) of also looking to buff Nature where they can play an extended T1, where it's possible to defend for a certain amount of time against a quick T2 with a plus one well advantage (which some of the other factions already can do) by buffing certain cards. Think of Envenom/Mumbo Jumbo/Amazon's ability/Mana Wing with M dmg for Burrowers/Cliffdancers. This way the decision of going T2 should be carefully taken as Nature would be able to gain an advantage by staying in T1 a bit longer.

However at the moment their balancing priorities lies elsewhere (they shared some of their priorities on the balancing discord server). AFAIK they consider the T1 changes succesfull but will continue to look at this over a longer period of time. 

So, yes, I agree that going quick T2 feels like skipping a part of the game. On the other hand there are some valid strategic plays and I don't want to undermine that. That's why I argue to be able to play an extended T1. Making Scorched Earth a neutral card sounds like a gift from god, however it would change the dynamic of the whole game. 

Edited January 28, 2021 by Zappyx

[Rankerz]

Timing of teching is part of the PvP strategy imo

From your words, you have more problems with the balance of T2 matchups, not the actual time of being to play it

Also if your deck has advantageon T2, I dont think you can blame people for using it especially in ranked enviroment

I love T1 fights as well, but most people don't maybe due the lack of experience, skill or the fact that T1 balance can be also 1 sided in certain matchups

Some maps or classes does not allow to make an effective punish for the T2 rushes is also a different story

[SunWu]

20 minutes ago, Rankerz said:

Some maps or classes does not allow to make an effective punish for the T2 rushes is also a different story

yes, ,,some classes'' - he named them already, nature and frost...its the whole story this thread is about!

Neutral scorched earth could be just another tool for shadow to use your swift advantage, get instant T2 and then deny the frost/nature players T2.

 

 

Edited January 28, 2021 by SunWu

[Torban]

Well against frost it's not nessisarily free. Ive dropped orbs before with a mass of archers and homesoil. I do think it's a little lame instantly hopping t2 but I'm also very much a rusher so overconfident/lazy orbs and wells are my bread and butter. The blue tides comin for ya! 

[ImperatorSK]

Note: I pretty much played no Skylords Pvp since official release so probably my comments are out of date due to balance changes and my lack of knowledge of what has changed.

Frost is quite good in rushing down Orbs with Homesoil and is still able to hold up the pressure when it is up, and i think it is also the right thing to punish early t2s. Exceptions are huge maps due to frosts lack in movement speed.
With Nature it is a bit more tricky since you first have to get a critical mass of units before you are able to deal decent damage and so the advantage in t2 units getting harder to overcome the longer you need to snowball, but even here it is hard but still very possible to rush down a t2. 

Since it is a strategic decision to go instant t2 that bring you in a temporary energy disadvantage it should be not restricted by extra cooldowns or costs. But i think there is no real problem with the decision to make Scorched Earth a neutral card since it is also a risk to use and still consumes a Deckslot, so it is not only a Win/Win Situation for some fractions and adds even a bit more of a strategy component to note.

Edited January 29, 2021 by ImperatorSK

[anonyme0273]

Every decision can be punished and everyone has their preferences. Many times I would see people go T2 instantly when facing Nature T1, cause that's annoying to fight and yea, ya gotta be ready for that. Someone going T2 fast allows you to either push them back with your extra 150 Power or get an extra well if they are far away and defend for a bit... either way, I really don't think it's unbeatable or unbalanced, after all, you can do the same in reaction. Depends also heavily on the map, on the deck... no real answer imo.

[YaBro0]

2 hours ago, ImperatorSK said:

Note: I pretty much played no Skylords Pvp since official release so probably my comments are out of date due to balance changes and my lack of knowledge of what has changed.

Frost is quite good in rushing down Orbs with Homesoil and is still able to hold up the pressure when it is up, and i think it is also the right thing to punish early t2s. Exceptions are huge maps due to frosts lack in movement speed.
With Nature it is a bit more tricky since you first have to get a critical mass of units before you are able to deal decent damage and so the advantage in t2 units getting harder to overcome the longer you need to snowball, but even here it is hard but still very possible to rush down a t2. 

Since it is a strategic decision to go instant t2 that bring you in a temporary energy disadvantage it should be not restricted by extra cooldowns or costs. But i think there is no real problem with the decision to make Scorched Earth a neutral card since it is also a risk to use and still consumes a Deckslot, so it is not only a Win/Win Situation for some fractions and adds even a bit more of a strategy component to note.

They Nerfed Mortar Tower snd Phasetower. I think they are still viable and strong against Nature and Frost but people stopped using them and therefore are not confident in taking an early well. This leads to (at least against nature) an unreasonable amount of instant T2's which starts at around Top 40 and gets more serious the higher you go. Even in the Top 10, there are 4 out of 10 players, of which I have not seen a second T1 Unit played against me more than once. So this is not an unrealiable beginner move. Like I said I think you can rush down on small maps against players that are weaker than you like Wazhai or Yrmia but there are way more maps where you can't and many players that aren't even that bad and still pull of the instant T2 trigger.

Don't get me wrong, I think there is a nice strategic element in going for an early T2 but completely skipping T1 without even trying to play a second unit, cutting out any chance of interaction (even passive ones) in the T1 Stage should not be this effective and "hard to punish" (I think it's impossible against a decent player on more Maps than not). 

I think that adding another ranged M-Counter for nature would make them at least viable at defending T1 against T2. Frost T1 I think would benefit from a Ice-Guardian Shield-Cost reduction to 0-5e. That is not like he was in the old days when Ice-Guardians were super OP, cause they would get their spawn Shield even dazed near an Ice Barrier. But I think that would make T1 vs T2 defending much better and allow for a possible dazed fight besides massive MA Spam.

@anonyme0273 I am sorry to say that but my whole point is that it is not possible to punish more often than not. Yes, you can do the same but it's not argument to be forced to also play an instant T2 when you can not react otherwise. It rather shows how strong this action is in the first place. I agree that it heavily depends on the Map but there is not even a handful of Maps were the distances are short enough to rush down an Instant T2. Defending is actually even harder the bigger the Well distances get since Nature is very slow to switch defending Places and has to low dps for reactive plays without a previous army in base. 

And Yes, it also depends on the Faction you are rushing. But I can't say where it is easier to rush than defend. Many factions are just stupid to even try rushing like Pure Fire, Fire/Nature, shadow/nature. You will not win here and defending against those as T1 is almost impossible. I am not saying that it never worked but that is due to obvious mistakes made by the T2 Player otherwise you are screwed. 

Overall I think that the Nerfs to Phasetower and Mortar were neccessary (maybe a bit to little) for improving the T1 Balance of Frost and Nature but it more than before shows, that their weakness lies in lack of early Map and pace Control rather than the other factions being too oppressive themselves.

It certainly made Nature/Frost pretty strong.

Edited January 29, 2021 by YaBro0

[MarbSlonk]

I'm by no means a top-player, or even close to that (rank 65 with pure nature), but I agree with the sentiment. On smaller maps you at least get to decide whether or not to rush, but on the larger map it basically forces you into an instant T2 that you will probably lose.

On 1/28/2021 at 10:09 AM, Zappyx said:

I addressed to the PVP balancing team (on the discord server) of also looking to buff Nature where they can play an extended T1, where it's possible to defend for a certain amount of time against a quick T2 with a plus one well advantage (which some of the other factions already can do) by buffing certain cards. Think of Envenom/Mumbo Jumbo/Amazon's ability/Mana Wing with M dmg for Burrowers/Cliffdancers. This way the decision of going T2 should be carefully taken as Nature would be able to gain an advantage by staying in T1 a bit longer.

Although I can understand that it's not a high priority, I actually really like your solutions. Especially the Mana Wing one as it isn't really useful in PvP right now, but it's an awesome unit :-) I would be fine with buffing some Fire and Shadow T1 cards as well, of course. A diverse T1 fight is always great!

[Ultrakool]

19 hours ago, MarbSlonk said:

Especially the Mana Wing one as it isn't really useful in PvP right now, but it's an awesome unit :-)

I guess you haven't seen radicalx's nature tournament games?

[MarbSlonk]

7 hours ago, Ultrakool said:

I guess you haven't seen radicalx's nature tournament games?

I don't, where can I find em?

[Ultrakool]

Check out this video "The Skylords Open #2" https://www.twitch.tv/dastoggy/v/893979529?sr=a&t=13043s

40 minutes ago, MarbSlonk said:

I don't, where can I find em?

 

[MarbSlonk]

Thanks!

1 hour ago, Ultrakool said:

Check out this video "The Skylords Open #2" https://www.twitch.tv/dastoggy/v/893979529?sr=a&t=13043s

 

Edit: just seen the game, that was absolutely hilarious haha, great 'game'

Edited February 3, 2021 by MarbSlonk

[kuwahara]

i dont believe it should be any delay ,going t2 from start is a tactic with its pros and cons.