Daily Card Discussion

[YaBro0]

34 minutes ago, LagOps said:

@YaBro0 would it not be better to nerf those cards which are clearly op? currently nature t2 consist mostly of the broken som+ep+ps combo (and later on permaheal do due to this) but has nothing aside from that. in my opinion, it would be much better to not have them autolose vs. burrowers and fix the issues with other cards in the faction. i think it is clear to everyone that we have to tone down this unhealthy combo if we ever want to rework pure nature.

First of all, Nature has no autolose vs burrower there are ways to deal with this problem but many Pure nature players only concentrate their decks on the SoM+EP+DO and nothing more. Frost T1 vs nature T1 is an autolose, because you can't avoid it without a disadvantage and versus a rush in T1 there's no way you'll win. 

I wouldn't consider SoM+EP+DO overpowered in a Pure nature deck, somehow this ridiculous combination works out. It's just easily considered OP, because it's different from the normal playstyle. Usually you would build wells and gain your power from that and the "lame" nature player just has to build one SoM to even out 3 wells? Some forget that this tactic has a high risk. That's where the matchups and the maps decide wether this tactic is OP or not. If you can counter the EP spam in the early game you'll most likely win easily. The Problem is that many maps make it hard and some make it even impossible for certain colours to counter them. Means depending on the map and matchup nature has a great advatange or a big disadvantage and nothing in between. So in 1v1 I wouldn't consider Pure nature OP without Treespirit.

Balancing Pure nature in the right way is a hell lot of work and I don't believe we will ever see a complete rework of nature, since it is actually quite balanced at the moment, somehow

 

 

[Loptous]

Sorry for the late post guys, so I just chose a random easy card I could pick out.

[SilenceKiller99]

I have never even seen this card ever... And I think it is confusing and the effect is the following (can someone please confirm this):

It is a permanent buff to a unit, whether it deals 1200 it will regenerate 1500 health over 10 seconds at U0. At UIII it will be triggered at dealing 1000 damage and will regenerate 1650 health over 10 seconds.

 

If this is it, it sounds really strong, but not sure if it is really worth in T4 for 120 power. Weak in 1v1 PvP anyways (because of T4) and might be viable in 2v2 PvP, but is a bit to situational in my opinion. It would be strong in PvE I guess... right?

[anonyme0273]

Never used it, probably never will (in PvP almost without doubt)

Also, I wonder what will happen to this topic when all 540 cards are discussed

Will we start over?

[SilenceKiller99]

8 minutes ago, anonyme0273 said:

Never used it, probably never will (in PvP almost without doubt)

Also, I wonder what will happen to this topic when all 540 cards are discussed

Will we start over?

That's an interesting one! 

[ImaginaryNumb3r]

In theory this card would be a great complement to a pure fire army.

Moloch + unity prevents any units from getting beaten up too much and with high DPS units like Fire Dragon and Batariel you can rock the stage. As pure fire does not have enough staying power, this could be a T4 ravage to give your units an edge in combat. At least that's the theory.

So, obviously the problem is that there are almost no pure fire armies to begin with. The star of pure fire is Batariel and honestly, this card is best used with enlightenment, and a crap load of support spells.

So that leaves your pure fire army with what... Moloch? A unit that is "nice to have" at best and virtually unuseable in rpve due to its slow movement speed (really fire and slow movement? -.-).

By going fire, fire, fire, nature you already get the best things of Fire (being Cluster Explosion, Fire Dragon, Fire Sphere and Earth Shaker) but rather than using a T4 ravage, you get the real deal: a T4 lightsurge.

And Grimvine is a much better (and much much faster) T4 siege/tank unit considering its price.

It doesn't help Bloodthirst that it is 120e, which cannot be compared to the 50e from Ravage that you can simply throw in here and there. Also, Bloodthirst heals at a much slower pace and sometimes it just might not be enough for an army that has little HP in general.

So, the reason why it is not used is not necessarily because the card is bad but because Regrwoth is vastly superior and there is hardly a reason to go pure fire to begin with.

Perhaps, the card should just be improved by a lot and be made pure fire, I think that would help a considerable deal.

Edit: @anonyme0273 Yeah I thought about that too already. But I suppose the game is running by then so the circumstances will be different.

Edited February 12, 2016 by Mental Omega

[Ladadoos]

27 minutes ago, anonyme0273 said:

Never used it, probably never will (in PvP almost without doubt)

Also, I wonder what will happen to this topic when all 540 cards are discussed

Will we start over?

Same... I have never really used this card and also probably never will.

When all 540 cards are discussed I expect a summary with all the opinions about each card (in short) from @Loptous  .

[Treim]

I actually had a pure Fire deck and used that card as a heal in that.

Simply have 2 Molochs at the front and 3 Batariels with Unity and thats pretty much all you need. This strategy heavily resolves around Unity and thatfor struggles really hard against Lost Souls maps due to the Lost Dancer debuff. Bloodthirst is just good as some in fight heal. Much like Ravage. For that deck i used Moons Ability to heal my troops mainly. That only works after a fight though due to Moon being such a squishy card and just dying instantly or taking a units slot in Unity which you can not really afford to do. This strategy requires good understanding on when you can leave the base with your Molochs to reach the next base around the time your Batariels do without them dying. This avoids most of the time you would need to wait for your Molochs however you really need to understand how much damage you do with your 3 Batariels and more importantly: How much damage will they take from the remaining units. Obviously you can go with the easier way and do not split up your units, but that will heavily influence your clearspeed. Thatfor i'd only recommend this for veterans. If you face Lost Souls you will definetly need the experience to handle it. As i didnt was that comfortable with those decks, i got whiped with this deck more often than with any other deck( probably got whiped once every 4-5 games with this deck - just approximately). Definetly not viable on most lvl 10 maps imo.

It is generally not worth to play due to reason @Mental Omega mentioned. If you want to play Pure Fire anyways due to Moloch/ the Challenge or whatever reason it is at least better than nothing.

 

I think when all cards have been discussed we can start either again if there are a lot more participants as at some really interesting card only 2 or 3 people discussed. I'd like to give new participants also the chance of sharing their opinion about this card. if there are not a lot of new participants in those discussions I'd like to get back to those cards that really offer a lot of talk potential. We already had some of them and i feel like at least for some there isn't everything discussed yet (f.e. Amii-Monument?). That is mostly due to the fact that they only last one day and not everyones online 24/7. We could probably go a little more indepth about those cards especially when there are interesting ideas about buffing/nerfing. It is like evolving the thread a little bit towards more of a balancing thread rather than a 'lets-talk-about-a-card' thread. I think this could become a place where really interesting ideas and opinions to certain cards can be discussed about a longer period of time. Especially once the game is out and maybe some balancing is going on, this could become a place for players who aren't that much into all the cards and their role in the game to get first impressions on cards and building an own opinion about the card. Probably we could add a little data bank with help of some of the more experienced and very good theoritical( i don think this word fits 100% but couldnt think of anything else) to get an objective view on strength and weaknesses of cards for PVE and PVP( as much as possible at least).

I know thats a lot of ideas and probably non of them fits 100% or those should even have an own thread( probably especially the data bank?). Maybe we can discuss further on how this is turning out within the next days

[Loptous]

1 hour ago, Ladadoos said:

Same... I have never really used this card and also probably never will.

When all 540 cards are discussed I expect a summary with all the opinions about each card (in short) from @Loptous  .

Only if Beta is released before we are done  

In all seriousness though I could do that, creating a separate post regarding the opinions and facts discussed upon a card. Although, it will take awhile... A long while... 

Or it could be done in small incriminates each sometime showing the card and a general synopsis idk

Edited February 13, 2016 by Loptous

[anonyme0273]

lol @Ladadoos great idea

 @Loptous I am sorry in advance, that is going to be a hell of a work man...

[Kaliber84]

12 hours ago, anonyme0273 said:

Never used it, probably never will (in PvP almost without doubt)

Also, I wonder what will happen to this topic when all 540 cards are discussed

Will we start over?

I thought we'd go back to the cards that are in serious need of a rework/balancing starting with the OP ones (like Amii Monument).

@Loptous If we want separate threads I wouldn't do them for every single card but rather the ones that seriously need to be balanced and those that are interesting. Should be separated into OP/UP cards. Because an UP card will simply not be played which is a bit sad, but an OP card is used excessively and destroys the balance in some kind of way so I'd deem the latter more important.
Maybe we should do a thread with a list where every of the cards is mentioned with the general opinion being either OP, UP or balanced.

[anonyme0273]

17 minutes ago, Kaliber84 said:

I thought we'd go back to the cards that are in serious need of a rework/balancing starting with the OP ones (like Amii Monument).

@Loptous If we want separate threads I wouldn't do them for every single card but rather the ones that seriously need to be balanced and those that are interesting. Should be separated into OP/UP cards. Because an UP card will simply not be played which is a bit sad, but an OP card is used excessively and destroys the balance in some kind of way so I'd deem the latter more important.
Maybe we should do a thread with a list where every of the cards is mentioned with the general opinion being either OP, UP or balanced.

Honestly I think very little cards are seriously so overpowered that they should need to be reworked, and starting with a  single buff/nerf will lead to a community boom where everyone will ramble about a card they can't handle or deem overpowered. This could lead to an infinite loop of new meta - new op combo - new nerf/buff - start over

I don't think BattleForge is that kind of game that needs ridiculous updates as to card balancing. Vileblood can be killed, Amii monument destroyed (I seriously haven't seen it more than 2 in Ranked PvP) and any other kind of card has its primal counter. Thats what SMLXL system exists for, Siege is for and CC is for. Every deck is beatable, the one thing that matters most is skill, not cards (in my honest opinion)

Some may disagree, but I wouldn't like to see BattleForge become the type of game with a community like LoL has - flaming and screaming about champions (cards) unfairness.  I never was a magnificent PvP player myself, but I was willing to learn, break the meta and find the gamestyle I deemed most fun to play.

 

 

[Ladadoos]

35 minutes ago, Kaliber84 said:

Maybe we should do a thread with a list where every of the cards is mentioned with the general opinion being either OP, UP or balanced.

 

13 hours ago, Ladadoos said:

When all 540 cards are discussed I expect a summary with all the opinions about each card (in short) from @Loptous  .

You stealing my idea I see  

[Kaliber84]

@anonyme0273 Well I think there are a few (not many) cards in need of a rework but that's my opinion. What I see as important is to tone down OP cards. I too don't like how LoL handles it with the constantly changing meta but I'd like to see the devs making more cards viable for a faction. If you got an UP card you can simply buff it a little so that it is worth to spend power on. The problem with an OP card is that you give yourself a disadvantage simply by not choosing it, which is a no-no IMHO.

For example: Amii Monument may not be OP in PvP but in PvE it definitely is. If you want to get the most out of your T3/T4 there is no way around taking either AM or Enlightenment and the latter restricts you in many ways (starting with the orb requirement). Can you tell me an alternative to AM that achieves the same results? Enlightenment is the closest I'd say but it is used for different decks and situations. I consider AM OP, because building a strong T3 can't ever get the same kind of results as skipping it altogether for (almost) the same cost as an orb.

Many other cards won't need a complete rework of course and rebalancing with buffs and nerfs is always risky, but IMO it is better to give it a try than to keep the balance as it is. I'd suggest to keep the changes small to fine-tune cards until they are decent and then stop there. The problem you describe with the changing meta is something I have seen in many games (not only LoL). I think that it is mostly because the buffs or nerfs are too massive, so the card/champion/whatever will forever be changing between OP and UP. By doing small changes and repeat them as necessary this problem becomes smaller and we won't shoot past our aim and create the other extreme.

1 hour ago, Ladadoos said:

You stealing my idea I see  

My pleasure. Nah, my suggestion was to simply make a list of the card names and note the "votes" for UP,OP, balanced. Without a summary as you suggested.

[anonyme0273]

@Kaliber84 One more problem I have with this popped to my head when I was reading what you said about meta - changing any cards in any way will need a wide community reports and opinions put together and balancing tests, thus leading to a change of existing meta (or a meta kept alive through various ways on the Forum). However, the only way to prevent that, is to change them now, with the game not being released yet, which is almost pure nonsense, as very few people get to have some experience with the card and testing it against other cards and strategies (Alpha members in The Forge)

I can't come up with any card that would have a similar effect on gameplay as AM has (except already mentioned Enlightenment), but perhaps its PvE purpose is the only thing the card has. Deeming it almost useless in PvP, PvE usage only being really good for speedruns as it saves some Power and can be placed earlier than finding the T4 monument (if it is available) may be strong, it is the only thing this card has to offer

10 minutes ago, Kaliber84 said:

By doing small changes and repeat them as necessary this problem becomes smaller and we won't shoot past our aim and create the other extreme.

This, I agree with more than a rework. Makes sense and MAY increase the balance levels (sounds funny... balance levels  ) a bit, but I still think it needs more shoutout from the community and some kind of voting system, which atm should not be a priority for the developers. However, if a thread about nerfs and buffs can stay topic-related with relative feedback and opinions, we may have a functional way that may progress into and onwards the upcoming game   

[Kaliber84]

6 minutes ago, anonyme0273 said:

@Kaliber84 One more problem I have with this popped to my head when I was reading what you said about meta - changing any cards in any way will need a wide community reports and opinions put together and balancing tests, thus leading to a change of existing meta (or a meta kept alive through various ways on the Forum). However, the only way to prevent that, is to change them now, with the game not being released yet, which is almost pure nonsense, as very few people get to have some experience with the card and testing it against other cards and strategies (Alpha members in The Forge)

We'll just have to deal with a slight change in the meta when there is a change, that's how it is. I don't mind as long as the changes are small or really necessary (looking at you Amii Monument ). It is absolutely impossible to do the rebalancing now, simply because we got no access to the playable game. Usually this rebalancing is done in the beta (beneath the bug-catching) but the devs definitely won't have time for it until after release. I wouldn't worry about it as much.

6 minutes ago, anonyme0273 said:

I can't come up with any card that would have a similar effect on gameplay as AM has (except already mentioned Enlightenment), but perhaps its PvE purpose is the only thing the card has. Deeming it almost useless in PvP, PvE usage only being really good for speedruns as it saves some Power and can be placed earlier than finding the T4 monument (if it is available) may be strong, it is the only thing this card has to offer

That is already a lot. IMO this card should never be balanced for PvP as it would completely change the gameplay (and meta ) if it was viable in PvP. That is exactly what happened to PvE when the card was released and I never liked it because of that. Well we know that it needs a change but what change is a topic for future discussions.

6 minutes ago, anonyme0273 said:

This, I agree with more than a rework. Makes sense and MAY increase the balance levels (sounds funny... balance levels  ) a bit, but I still think it needs more shoutout from the community and some kind of voting system, which atm should not be a priority for the developers. However, if a thread about nerfs and buffs can stay topic-related with relative feedback and opinions, we may have a functional way that may progress into and onwards the upcoming game   

I'd also like a more representative system for balancing discussions. As @Mental Omega said in the other thread we'll need something better than the old watchlist. Keep in mind however, that the community isn't always right and that the devs need to consider (or at least publish) the statistics that are relevant to the card. It's hard to make a system that is democratic while still valuing the votes differently. But that's a topic for another thread.

[Treim]

Imo it is completely nonsense to let the whole community participate in regards of balancing. There will be people that will just want their own faction being buffed/ not nerfed and heavily and influence the discussion in a way that is definetly not positive. Same goes for those players that want to get some factions/ cards nerfed into the ground. You need an objective group of players that is playing on very high lvl and understanding the theory behind PVP and PVE in order to make efficient changes to the game. I do not mind to have the community discussing cards in a seperate thread however the final decision on how to change a card should be made within that small groups of experts. Their talks should be not available by the community, their result however should be reasoned so everyone understands how they came to their result.

[SilenceKiller99]

3 hours ago, Treim said:

You need an objective group of players that is playing on very high lvl and understanding the theory behind PVP and PVE in order to make efficient changes to the game. 

Just for your information, the balancing does not have to be done by high lvl players. For example, the balancing in League of Legends is done by people who play Silver niveau (which is average) as far as I know.

The testing though, must indeed be done by highly experienced players, and also a few very creative players (to find hidden combinations and that kind of stuff).

[Loptous]

So for our Saturday/Sunday card, Dying Breed.

An interesting card design along with some nice artwork.

Mainly used for PVP my guess, in scenarios where you don't want the enemy spawning millions of pesky units... *cough* Ashbone.. *cough*

Although my main grudge with this card, is the cost. It is expensive as hell. Not sure what version is better, but for me I would go with the green one just cause it does damage

I'll leave the rest to you guys, have a nice weekend 

[SilenceKiller99]

Someone maybe has a video to make clear what this card actually does?

[anonyme0273]

This card prevents others of a chosen type from being spawned by the enemy and damages the debuffed unit. 

Didn't see or use it much, but I agree with preveting Ashbone spam  Or Giant Slayer spam... or Skyfire Drake spam... just... spam 

This card prevents others of a chosen type from being spawned by the enemy and damages the debuffed unit. 

Didn't see or use it much, but I agree with preveting Ashbone spam  Or Giant Slayer spam... or Skyfire Drake spam... just... spam 

EDIT: The Shadow affinity (purple) doesn't deal damage and prevents cards off affected unit to being played by affected player, green affinity deals damage + previous effect.

Both are slightly different - you can manage not to kill the unit in order to prevent the enemy from playing it, but also damage it by the card itself if you want to kill it and in the MEANTIME prevent your opponent from playing it. Useless on Legendary cards, you can't play more of them anyway. And as far as I know, the affected player can still kill the unit manually, as the card description doesn't say he can't (I may be wrong on this)

I also liked the casting animation on this.

@SilenceKiller99 I suggest checking out the AllCards tab in the menu of this Forum to find out a lot about all cards in the game, the description is mostly understandable and clear

[Kaliber84]

First of all a note: At U2 the power cost is reduced by 10 to 110. U1 and U3 decrease the cooldown by 5 seconds each.

I don't know about the design and if it is worth a slot. While you can prevent spam of one kind of unit, the unit you used it on needs to be alive for the effect to last.
Now if the unit you used it on goes into a fight and dies, the spell will be canceled and you don't want it to die that fast. But you can't let the unit roam either as it probably destroys a well or something then. Especially the best targets for the spell (spammable, with a power cost of 100 or above) are really dangerous if kept alive. Keeping it CC'ed isn't worth the cost after already using the spell.
IMO that makes it a spell that doesn't give a lasting advantage as one would hope to gain. The only scenarios I can think of where it is of good use is are either when the enemy hasn't attacked yet and wants to gather units (like a root deck maybe). You can use the spell then to stop that but you need to be fast enough to do so. The second scenario is when there's a dangerous unit you wan't to get down (Mountaineer, AoF, Juggernaut or Grigori) and you simply use the spell (green) for the constant damage (it deals 1000 over 20 seconds which is nice). But even then it's probably better to play something else as you are probably not even in risk of getting spammed.

I think the current affinities aren't good for their purpose. As you need to keep the debuffed unit alive for a while, the green affinity is simply countering the spell itself (even thought the damage is nice). And the purple affinity isn't worth the power I'd say as it does less than the green affinity.
IMO I'd buff both green and purple affinity, with the green one receiving slightly increased damage (e.g. 70 per second at U3) and the purple one applying a dmg debuff (25% at U3). The dmg debuff actually helps the spell. In exchange I wouldn't decrease the cooldown with the upgrades. So then the upgrades would be:

• Green
  • U1: 10 more damage per second
  • U2: -10 power cost
  • U3: 10 more damage per second
• Purple
  • U1: 15% dmg debuff
  • U2: -10 power cost
  • U3: additional 10% dmg debuff

[SilenceKiller99]

1 hour ago, anonyme0273 said:

@SilenceKiller99 I suggest checking out the AllCards tab in the menu of this Forum to find out a lot about all cards in the game, the description is mostly understandable and clear

Yeah, I use that site a lot. But it was just not clear to me.

'Turns the target into a dying breed.' Does this affect the target unit with any debuff or disable or something? 

'The affected player may not play out any more cards of the same kind (tainted)/card(gifted) as long as the target unit lives.' Does 'the same kind' mean the same unit? Or all the cards that are called soldier (when casted on a soldier) or all the cards that say forestkin (when casted on a forestkin creature). Also note that the tainted version says 'same kind' while the gifted version says 'same card'. What is a kind?

Quote

EDIT: The Shadow affinity (purple) doesn't deal damage and prevents cards off affected unit to being played by affected player, green affinity deals damage + previous effect.

This is not true, the version have different descriptions about the effect.

Edited February 14, 2016 by SilenceKiller99

[anonyme0273]

@SilenceKiller99 I see, my bad. 

Good point, didn't notice some of that... so, let me test, I will be right back with an anwser

I in advance think though that is is just the one card, not the whole class

 

Alright. 

So, first of all, they can't be combined on the same unit, but they can be used on both affinites of a card. Lets say I want to curse a Firesworn (red) by DB (Dying Breed) (green). The affected player may not summon any other Firesworns (red) anywhere on the map for 30 seconds or until cursed unit dies (that is not written in the description). However, Firesworns (blue) may still be played without problem (if someone of course has 2 types of Firesworn in their deck for some reason  ). Furthermore, the blue Firesworn may also be cursed by enemy player by DB and that will prevent only blue Firesworns from being spawned, until the cursed Firedworn is killed (can be killed by owner to get rid of the curse immediately).

Other archers and humans can still be spawned, as expected. 

I hope that anwsers most questions, if there are any further questions, I will be able to test them for the next 25 minutes before leaving  Hope you learned something, I sure did

35 minutes ago, SilenceKiller99 said:

This is not true, the version have different descriptions about the effect.

Yes, confusing

[SilenceKiller99]

37 minutes ago, anonyme0273 said:

The affected player may not summon any other Firesworns (red) anywhere on the map for 30 seconds or until cursed unit dies (that is not written in the description).

Are you sure about this 30 seconds? The description says until the unit dies.