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When playing RPvE in the last few months, I almost always saw someone using Shrine of War. When I build a deck with fire-cards at all, I include Shrine of War. The voidpower-refund it grants is just vastly superior to other means of voidpower management like Shrine of Memory. Voidpower is almost a non-issue when Shrine of War is active.

I think that's a bit too good.

My proposal is to

  • make Shrine of War need two fire-orbs
  • reduce it's voidpower-refund from 20% to 15% (u3)
  • allow only one Shrine of War to be build per player (so you need two players with SoW to have the effect up constantly)

The reasoning behind these changes is to make SoW a bit more rare, so we don't see it on every single RPvE-map, and to make it harder to have the effect up constantly, so void power becomes an issue again. Additionally I hope this would make other means of voidpower management more viable.

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9 hours ago, Danol said:

When playing RPvE in the last few months, I almost always saw someone using Shrine of War. When I build a deck with fire-cards at all, I include Shrine of War. The voidpower-refund it grants is just vastly superior to other means of voidpower management like Shrine of Memory. Voidpower is almost a non-issue when Shrine of War is active.

I think that's a bit too good.

My proposal is to

  • make Shrine of War need two fire-orbs
  • reduce it's voidpower-refund from 20% to 15% (u3)
  • allow only one Shrine of War to be build per player (so you need two players with SoW to have the effect up constantly)

The reasoning behind these changes is to make SoW a bit more rare, so we don't see it on every single RPvE-map, and to make it harder to have the effect up constantly, so void power becomes an issue again. Additionally I hope this would make other means of voidpower management more viable.

I'm down to make it T2 :')

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Shrine of War - The only void management tool that requires only one fixed orb. Most powerful in rPvE since enemies constantly die. Permanent uptime with two of them. Absolutely insanely overtuned return rate of 20%. Most expensive energy wise.

Cultist Master + Furnace of Flesh - Occupies two deck slots, takes up population-space but is on demand and independent.

Shrine of the Martyrs - Demonstrates that 8% return rate is already quite powerful. The most involved option and requires other cards in the deck to work.

Shrine of Memory - A consistent trickle. Offers nothing comparable to the bursts of return of the three options. Independent and reliable.

Shrine of Greed - Takes up the rare slots in Boosters and is sometimes used in speedrunning.

 

Considering both rPvE and PvE, I'd say that SoW is the best option of the bunch because of how splashable it is and that it only requires one slot. Cultist Master/Furnace definitely a close second with different upsides. I would argue Martyrs is the poster child for a good and healthy void return mechanic, it gets the job done and you have to actively engage with it. If the goal was to equalize the power of these I'd take it as the baseline. Although it can be an equally valid approach to have them vary in power. Just not by this current margin. Memorys reliability can't make up for its comparatively lack of speed. And Greed gets the dunce cap.

The % return of SoW is definitely ridiculous, even with 15% you'd keep your void spectacularly low in rPvE. I think the three steps you proposed are reasonable, even in combination. Noticeably reducing its duration so that you actually have to time it when things die would also be an option. That way it could retain some of its power elsewhere.

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I agree with all 3 changes, though I would also be fine with just Point 1 and 3 and see how that goes (2 fire orbs, only one per player). 
Its a cool fire card, so I wouldnt mind rewarding people for playing two fire orbs at tier 3. 

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29 minutes ago, Majora - MidnaMistfire said:

I agree with all 3 changes, though I would also be fine with just Point 1 and 3 and see how that goes (2 fire orbs, only one per player). 
Its a cool fire card, so I wouldnt mind rewarding people for playing two fire orbs at tier 3. 

I like the idea of buffing the lategame of pure factions. So 2 fire orbs sounds nice. 

Also, actually I'd rather reduce the percentage and the duration of the effect instead of limiting to 1 use , so that one would need 3 shrines f. e. to use it all the time, making it either more challenging to use in the right situation like Cocofang said, or much more expensive and thus more balanced. 

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I think it would be better if you wouldnt change the stats or even buff it but make it require 4 fire orbs,

because there is no real reason to use a pure fire deck in PvE, Batariel is much better if you use him with Enlightenment.

And since Shrine of War is way more powerful than Shrine of Martyrs making him a T4 building would make sense.

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34 minutes ago, Fimion said:

I think it would be better if you wouldnt change the stats or even buff it but make it require 4 fire orbs,

because there is no real reason to use a pure fire deck in PvE, Batariel is much better if you use him with Enlightenment.

And since Shrine of War is way more powerful than Shrine of Martyrs making him a T4 building would make sense.

Making it 2 fireorbs is a way on the path to give players more reason to play a heavy splash (or pure) fire. Moving it to tier 4 makes little sense. What are you trying to acomplish with that? 

Also, people are constantly pointing out ''but playing X is just better''. Not everyone wants to play the enlightenment batariel deck, so spreading out fun and good cards across all the factions should be something to strive for in general IMO. 

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2 hours ago, Majora - MidnaMistfire said:

Moving it to tier 4 makes little sense.

In my opinion it does make sense because Shrine of War definity has the strength of a t4 card

when you compare it to Shrine of Memory, Shrine of Greed, Shrine of Martyrs and Cultist Masters + Furnace.

 

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3 hours ago, Fimion said:

I think it would be better if you wouldnt change the stats or even buff it but make it require 4 fire orbs,

What do you mean "buff it"? Haha, what's there to buff? That it gives you additional energy even if you are already at 0 void?

Edited by Cocofang
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9 minutes ago, Cocofang said:

What do you mean "buff it"? Haha, what's there to buff? That it gives you additional energy even if you are already at 0 void?

Decrease energy cost or make the abillity last longer 

but a buff isnt really needed even if it becomes t4

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7 hours ago, Darkroy said:

Also, actually I'd rather reduce the percentage and the duration of the effect instead of limiting to 1 use , so that one would need 3 shrines f. e. to use it all the time

I don't think that this kind of micro-management is fun. Part of my reasons for suggesting the "once per player"-thing was actually that I'm a lazy ass who hopes balancing SoW goes hand in hand with getting rid of tedious, boring micromanagement.

As for the "4 fire orbs" - suggestion: I don't think that's a good idea, because it vastly overshoots the mark. The goal is to balance SoW, not to totally exclude it from 99% of all decks. Pure fire-decks are a rare thing, so SoW would mostly get used with Enlightenment or Amii Monument, further increasing the power of these (already overpowered) cards. I could live with SoW becoming t4, though (2x fire + 2x whatever).

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3 hours ago, Danol said:

As for the "4 fire orbs" - suggestion: I don't think that's a good idea, because it vastly overshoots the mark. The goal is to balance SoW, not to totally exclude it from 99% of all decks. Pure fire-decks are a rare thing, so SoW would mostly get used with Enlightenment or Amii Monument, further increasing the power of these (already overpowered) cards. I could live with SoW becoming t4, though (2x fire + 2x whatever).

Yeah you are right making it require 4 fire orbs is a pretty bad idea because then everybody would be using it with Enlightenment, probably even i would.

But 2 fire and 2 neutral orbs seems pretty reasonable.

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Nerf SoW ---> everyone moves to FoF + Cultists.

Nerf FoF + Cultists ---> No good void return options, game becomes dull and unfun. (Only matters for PvE and rPvE)

SoW is not a problem for PvP, and if you want more variety in PvE, you gotta buff the other options and not nerf the current ones.

Thank god the devs don't have time to listen to all of your ideas, the game would burn in less than a week.

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1 hour ago, DieToPlay said:

Nerf SoW ---> everyone moves to FoF + Cultists.

Nerf FoF + Cultists ---> No good void return options, game becomes dull and unfun. (Only matters for PvE and rPvE)

SoW is not a problem for PvP, and if you want more variety in PvE, you gotta buff the other options and not nerf the current ones.

Thank god the devs don't have time to listen to all of your ideas, the game would burn in less than a week.

Oh boy, I don't want the game to burn xd

but seriously, SoW gives you 0 void power left during rPvE runs, meaning it returns all your void power. This just doesn't seem right. FoF + cultists can do this aswell right? 

I'd also love to see this mechanic spreaded more, but taking the current Shrine of Märtyrs as a healthy example rather than the op SoW seems better. 

Edited by Darkroy
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1 hour ago, Darkroy said:

Oh boy, I don't want the game to burn xd

but seriously, SoW gives you 0 void power left during rPvE runs, meaning it returns all your void power. This just doesn't seem right. FoF + cultists can do this aswell right? 

I'd also love to see this mechanic spreaded more, but taking the current Shrine of Märtyrs as a healthy example rather than the op SoW seems better. 

Yeah, lets be serious here, I could accept a slight decrease in void return percentage for SoW, nothing else, otherwise completely agree with DieToPlay. Because, enemy troops need to die in order for the void to return. I have experienced many cases in game where no enemies die hence no void return and Batariel (or whatever) dies fighting a camp. 

For some reason all these discussions tend to always be around how simple things are with this and that, but how hard should things be then? Even with SoW a lot of people are struggling finishing off camps in rPvE...

No, I take back my comment on slight decrease in percentage and vote no for this "suggestion".

// Ponni

PS. Yes, FoF + Cultists does this too, in fact, most rpve 1p levels 9 and 10 are done fast without SoW... 

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I guess the smartest thing to do would be to

a) Bring it in line with the other shrines in regard of orb requirement (FFX)
b) Slightly reduce the return to bring it closer to the other shrines

Even under those conditions it can still be the strongest of the shrines but not THAT far off anymore.

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59 minutes ago, Kapo said:

a) Bring it in line with the other shrines in regard of orb requirement (FFX)

In line to what? Shrine are as follows: :natureorb::natureorb:, :shadoworb::shadoworb:, :frostorb::frostorb::neutralorb:, :fireorb::neutralorb::neutralorb:, should we then reduce all to T2? Or set all to T3? Only then would they be in line, right?

A lot of in this game can be "op" as long as you know how to do it and of course that you in the end can execute it. Taking away these "op" things will not make the game better, sorry.

Btw, I vote we ban SoG from people who have not taken a course in how it works, especially then for rPvE runs.

// Ponni

Edited by Ponni
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Martyr is quite good and not nearly as overtuned as SoW. It is much more interactive and the void return is sufficient. Nerfs to overpowered cards and buffs to underpowered ones can happen simultaneously. Nerfs are necessary because if you just take the current top performers as benchmarks for everything else to be elevated to you end up with massive powercreep. People are so used to the totally busted, imbalanced cards that they don't even realize anymore how ridiculous a 20% void return is for every single enemy unit that dies that you can have up permanently. The expectation of power is totally out of whack.

At the same time, you won't get people to deviate from the current top just by making the alternatives stronger. You also have to actively give them an slight nudge to get out from their stale comfort zone. How can someone even argue with a straight face that an extremely flexible card that almost completely negates the entire mechanic of void energy is totally fine? Did any of you even bother to run the numbers? I'm gonna dare do it even though if they are somehow wrong, I'm gonna look stupid as fuck.

Say you have 500 void. With just 8 dead enemies anywhere on the map, you are down to 84 void. So you had a burst return of 416 energy, which equals to 83% of your void energy.

Again with 1000 void. 11 dead enemies to get below 100 again, 86 void to be exact. 914 energy usable again, or 91%.

An unreasonable 2000 void that you somehow managed to accumulate because you spammed spells and half your army still managed to die. 14 dead enemies anywhere result in 88 void. 1912 energy back or 96%.

Let's see how many enemies have to die for you to get 300 energy back, which is enough to cast any spell or almost all units in the game. So it's sufficient to keep you powering on.

500 void -> 4 enemies

600 void -> 3 enemies

850 void -> 2 enemies

1500 void -> 1 enemy

Now consider that SoW is a T3 card so by that point your army and your spells already pack a hefty punch. Meanwhile there will still be a lot of fodder on the environment side, lots of S and M units that keel over quickly.

Practical example for all you power trippers out there, you go and cast Frenetic + Infect + Soulshatter on a camp. That's 320 energy to blow up a camp, 288 to void. This overkill of a spell combo has to kill a mere 7 enemies so you get 80%, or 227 energy, of it all back for immediate usage.

Here is how much % of your void SoW returns if you take a certain void level as basis (for example the void energy you begin a fight with), each step representing one dead enemy and not accounting for passive void return:

20,0 - 36,0 - 48,8 - 59,0 - 67,2 - 73,8 - 79,0 - 83,2 - 86,6 - 89,3 - 91,4 - 93,1 - 94,5 - 95,6 - 96,5

Each void accumulation makes the next enemy that dies return more again. If you keep your void bouncing between 200 and 500, each enemy death returns between 40 and 100 energy.

And to add to that, it's a global buff. Which means that it effectively scales with player count! In 4P maps shit constantly dies, even if you have downtime the odds of an ally currently killing something are high. Your allies push into enemy bases or enemy spawns crash into their defenses. In any case, enemies die.

If you add context to this card it just spirals completely out of control. There is no "knowing how to execute" it, you just build two and press the buttons. Don't act as if you are sitting there with 600 APM, galaxy brain and sweaty forehead while micro managing your SoWs.

The usual deflection of "Something else would take its place" it not an argument against nerfs and never will be. If anything you are just highlighting the next issue in line. Yeah, get triggered by that.

 

With that out of the way, actually, SoW could also be more interactive. Instead of just making it a global effect it could work like Lifestream. That you put down an AoE somewhere on the map and the void return effect only kicks in for enemies that die in there. While also reducing both duration and cooldown of SoW. That would drive the fire theme of the card more into a direction like "This is our battleground! Here we stand and fight! CHARGE!" and away from "ALL ENEMY DEATHS FUELS US!"

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1 hour ago, Cocofang said:

Jeez, a lot of text...some good parts...

So what if void gets returned within seconds, there are still things which holds stuff back, like charges and recast time. 

Also, most people "waste" the power by summoning another unit binding the power.

Also, you bind 300 power into two buildings, I would expect that to give a boost right?

Also, deck is limited to 20 cards with different tiers, not all of them will be viable once SoW is in place.

Also, as mentioned above there is another way to get void back, in some cases it is even better than SoW as void can be returned without enemies dying, eg. on the way to next camp...

But, I will offer you a slight decrease in void return percentage again, but I will not hesitate to withdraw that if more über-nerfing comes into discussion.

// Ponni

Edited by Ponni
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I don't think there is anything wrong with something being simple and powerful. It's the fasted and simplest tool for speed running 4 player maps.

If you don't like it or you want variety just don't play it! There is no reason to take away such good tool for PvE.

Additionally it has literally no use in PvP unless in supper huge 3v3 maps which can't be the balancing team's concern right now.

I don't see any reasonable point in nerfing this card.

Edited by Zeroo
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3 hours ago, Ponni said:

In line to what? Shrine are as follows: :natureorb::natureorb:, :shadoworb::shadoworb:, :frostorb::frostorb::neutralorb:, :fireorb::neutralorb::neutralorb:, should we then reduce all to T2? Or set all to T3? Only then would they be in line, right?

In line with requiring 2 orbs of an element, maybe I should have specified - I ment shrine of war as RRX.

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3 hours ago, Kapo said:

In line with requiring 2 orbs of an element, maybe I should have specified - I ment shrine of war as RRX.

Sure, figured that out too, still these shrines only share initial part of their name. Otherwise they are completely different to one another. Power cost, tiers, abilities, etc. Not sure why they would need to be in line with each other in this respect?

Also, until recently Shrine of Martyrs was a shield-providing building, not a void-returning building...if I am not mistaken, have honestly never used it...

// Ponni

Edited by Ponni
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6 hours ago, Cocofang said:

Martyr is quite good and not nearly as overtuned as SoW. It is much more interactive and the void return is sufficient. Nerfs to overpowered cards and buffs to underpowered ones can happen simultaneously. Nerfs are necessary because if you just take the current top performers as benchmarks for everything else to be elevated to you end up with massive powercreep. People are so used to the totally busted, imbalanced cards that they don't even realize anymore how ridiculous a 20% void return is for every single enemy unit that dies that you can have up permanently. The expectation of power is totally out of whack.

At the same time, you won't get people to deviate from the current top just by making the alternatives stronger. You also have to actively give them an slight nudge to get out from their stale comfort zone. How can someone even argue with a straight face that an extremely flexible card that almost completely negates the entire mechanic of void energy is totally fine?

Yep, you're absolutely right. With 2 SoW in a game, the void power mechanic might as well not exist at all. The same applies if other void power shrines get buffed to the level of SoW. Void power was meant to impose a delay on power reusage, that is obviously not working if you can get your void power back nearly instantaneous.

A simple comparison: Without any buffs, the void power regeneration is 1% per second, so to regenerate 99% of void power you need 459s. With Shrine of Memory constantly up it takes 152s. With SoW, it's 21 units killed. 5.25 kills per player on a 4 player map. How long does it take 4 players to kill 21 units on average, while on t3? Even if it took 30s it's still 5 times as powerful as Shrine of Memory. Even if you have only 1 SoW it totaly outperforms Shrine of Memory. It does not require the attention of Furnace + Cultist Master, it does not require specific cards/playstyles like Shrine of Martyrs, but also outperforms both and can be splashed easier. That's just insane. All that for a meager 300 energy, the cost of one (!) Great Wyrm.

But, of course, there are always those people who think too much is not enough.

Oh btw: Buffing the other void power refund options is not power creep, that's a power avalanche. It would be easier to just remove the whole void power mechanic, reduce spell cost by 90% and make units refund 90% of their power immediately upon death, because that's basically the same effect.

8 minutes ago, Ponni said:

Sure, figured that out too, still these shrines only share initial part of their name. Otherwise they are completely different to one another. Power cost, tiers, abilities, etc. Not sure why they would need to be in line with each other in this respect?

Because they serve the same purpose: Void power management.

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It's funny how I have to defend the cards over and over again against people who have no clue in the game or balancing. Why are you so worried about nerfing cards that are "OP", you are not entitled to use this in your games, it's not like the PvE mobs are crying and saying oh god it's too op nerf plox.
 

It would be understandable, if you were crying for PvP balance but no, you just want to ruin fun for other players because reasons.

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