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Unlimited VS Collection PvP


macabi

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Many expressed disappointment for not having to grind for PvP cards.

I started to play the game in January 2020 and was able to obtain all cards by release day.

Now that I am experiencing the new method I also share the same disappointment of not having to grind for PvP cards.

The latest patch which interduces the PvP collection mode is a commendable effort by the developers to address this issue.

However, I am afraid it is not going far enough to resolve the issue.

I predict most players will continue to play "Unlimited" PvP and  ignore the "Collection" PvP mode.

My suggestion is to change "Ranked PvP" to collection mode only and increase its Gold reward greatly in order to attract more players to that mode.

 

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No. Just no. I want to have at least the feeling that I have a chance to compete and not get bashed by people with 120 decks that grinded for weeks. I dont have a lot of time to play and want to play fair pvp before the year of 2025. If this is implemented I will not play ranked anymore and lose the interest in this game within the next few weeks.

 

Also this will make the ranked ladder a joke. It will no longer show you, who is the best player, but who has the most time and patience to grind. This will also turn off many pro players as well I'd guess. The game will thus die again faster than you can say Promo Lord Cyrian and we will be back where we were 5 years ago. And nobody wants that.

 

tl;dr: No.

Edited by Metagross31
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4 hours ago, macabi said:

Many expressed disappointment for not having to grind for PvP cards.

I started to play the game in January 2020 and was able to obtain all cards by release day.

Now that I am experiencing the new method I also share the same disappointment of not having to grind for PvP cards.

The latest patch which interduces the PvP collection mode is a commendable effort by the developers to address this issue.

However, I am afraid it is not going far enough to resolve the issue.

I predict most players will continue to play "Unlimited" PvP and  ignore the "Collection" PvP mode.

My suggestion is to change "Ranked PvP" to collection mode only and increase its Gold reward greatly in order to attract more players to that mode.

 

Thats exatly how I feel as well. Dont think there will be many (if any) Collection-Games and mostly Unlimited. 

The change you suggested with making Ranked the Collection-Mode is the best solution imo. 

For the people saying, that they dont want to grind for endless hours to get the right upgrades and cards: I've done 3 or 4 times my daily Quests now and invested like 15-30 min in the AH every day. After 4 days I have a lvl 70+ deck alrdy with quite some cards bought off the AH. So after max 2 weeks of playing an hour every day (which is really not much) you would easily have collected an entire 110+ deck. 

I mean its a freakin game where you are supposed to collect cards. Thats one of the main motivation factors for the game, no?

Edited by Geradon
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1 hour ago, Geradon said:

Dont think there will be many (if any) Collection-Games and mostly Unlimited.

Guess why? It's because the mayority of people want that change.

To quote Blizzard's devs: "You think you do, but you don't."

Without the decks pvp will suck. And people wont play it. Include top lvl people. An this will make it suck even more. See something?

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1 hour ago, Metagross31 said:

Guess why? It's because the mayority of people want that change.

To quote Blizzard's devs: "You think you do, but you don't."

Without the decks pvp will suck. And people wont play it. Include top lvl people. An this will make it suck even more. See something?

Players will prefer to play "Unlimited" because it's easier but then we all lose the fun of grinding PvP cards.

My proposal still leaves "Unlimited" as an option for Unranked games so nothing is lost.

I am simply proposing no "Unlimited" option for ranked games with much greater Gold reward which can be then used for grinding.

It's a good solution for both "Unlimited" and "Collection" PvP players.

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I'm curious who this "many" are that want to get wrecked by people worse than them who have grinded more than them solely because the other person has more grind. Collection mode for pvp is imo a complete waste of time as pvp is pointless on uneven footing. There is no issue here to be resolved. If anything simply make all cards act as upgrade 3 and 3 charged in pvp period. Now that would be good. Finally get rid of this divide entirely and then free pvp decks wouldn't even be needed then.

Edited by Torban
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One of the most critical elements of PvP is having people to play against. The removal of free PvP decks would nuke the population of ranked PvP players. Age of Empires Online learned this same lesson; its PvP scene was virtually non-existent until the introduction of Champion Mode, which removed the disparity between players who grinded out gear and those who hadn’t. 
 

This is one of those things that sounds logical to certain people, but it ignores the facts of human psychology. If I, or almost any other player, find ranked PvP frustrating because it is determined by deck level and not by skill, we’re not going to go out and grind for a PvP deck. We’re just going to not play PvP. If we aren’t playing PvP, queue times will increase, which will further lead to player loss for PvP as people who are less willing to spend their limited playtime in a queue quit PvP as well. If we aren’t playing PvP, eventually neither are you, because you run out of players. 
 

This isn’t about rewarding or not rewarding you for grinding out a deck. This is about ensuring you have players to play against with that deck you spent all that time grinding out. History has shown, every time, that allowing for benefits earned outside of the PvP match being played to impact the outcome of the PvP match, in any game, is unpopular and leads to decreased PvP participation. The majority of PvP gamers want PvP to reflect their skill, so even if you disagree with that, it behooves you to enable it, because it gives you people to play with. That’s why nearly every other MMO has moved to equalize stats in PvP and reduced the impact gear has on it. To paraphrase  Metagross, “you think you want this, but you really, really do not”.

Edited by Fraxure022
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I agree.

Now with the free PvP deck I don't have the need to buy PvP cards such as Fire Dancer or Mountaineer.

There is also no need to upgrade many cards that are used for PvP.

At this point we just go after PvE cards and PvE upgrades.

This means that the longevity of the game for many players could be cut in half.

My suggestion is to make "Collection" PvP mode more appealing by awarding much more gold.

You can also make Ranked games "Collection" only.

In addition to that, you can add make PvP Collection quests and achievements more common.

This way, Unlimited mode will be still available while Collection mode will be more appealing.

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Quote

Now with the free PvP deck I don't have the need to buy PvP cards such as Fire Dancer or Mountaineer.

There is also no need to upgrade many cards that are used for PvP.

At this point we just go after PvE cards and PvE upgrades.

It was our goal to make PvP accessible from the start without forcing players to grind for cards and upgrades. If you are satisfied with only having two decks in PvP, then yes, you do not need any more cards next to the free PvP decks.

Quote

This means that the longevity of the game for many players could be cut in half.

My suggestion is to make "Collection" PvP mode more appealing by awarding much more gold.

You can also make Ranked games "Collection" only.

In addition to that, you can add make PvP Collection quests and achievements more common.

This way, Unlimited mode will be still available while Collection mode will be more appealing.

Let's say it's the year 2022. The game has been out for a year and plenty of people have been playing for a while now. A lot of them have multiple level 120 collection decks. Now, let's suppose you are a new player who exclusively wants to play the PvP mode. What sounds more appealing:

1. Constantly losing against other players because they have a high level deck and you have a low level deck, while completely ignoring any skill differences.
2. Having the same high level deck as all other players and have the skill difference actually be the decider of the match.

I'd argue the first option will essentially lead to a PvP environment, which will be unwelcoming for all new players. Everyone will be forced to grind PvE or play sparring before they have a reasonable deck. Considering sparring PvP only grants one third of the ranked PvP rewards due to it's potential for abuse, grinding PvE will be the only reasonable option again. In this scenario, does the first option really sound that much more appealing to you than the second option? To me it surely doesn't. PvP will end up with a dead player base after 1-2 years since new players will have a very hard time getting into it.
 

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2 hours ago, Zyna said:

It was our goal to make PvP accessible from the start without forcing players to grind for cards and upgrades. If you are satisfied with only having two decks in PvP, then yes, you do not need any more cards next to the free PvP decks.

Let's say it's the year 2022. The game has been out for a year and plenty of people have been playing for a while now. A lot of them have multiple level 120 collection decks. Now, let's suppose you are a new player who exclusively wants to play the PvP mode. What sounds more appealing:

1. Constantly losing against other players because they have a high level deck and you have a low level deck, while completely ignoring any skill differences.
2. Having the same high level deck as all other players and have the skill difference actually be the decider of the match.

 

I agree with you 100%.

Unlimited mode accommodates these players.

But then there is a second group of players who expressed their opinion in another thread where they like the idea of grinding for PvP cards and upgrades.

So the developers came up with a good idea of adding a Collection mode to accommodate these players.

However, if unlimited is the easier choice then everybody will play Unlimited mode and not many will play Collection mode which is a fact so far.

That is why I suggested more rewards for Collection mode to encourage more players to play that mode.

Regarding players with different deck levels.

Can the developers add a deck level range option where I can specify that only players with deck level 1-20 can join the game?

The different options for deck levels can be 1-20, 21-40, 41-60 and so on up to 120, or whatever deck level range the player chooses.

Can this be done for both Rank and Unranked?

That could be a good way to ensure that players with similar deck levels end up playing together.

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I see no reason to consider changing ranked to even allow for the option of collection only. The whole point of a competitive ranked PvP mode in ANY game is to provide an experience where players can use their skill to outplay their opponent(s) and obtain rankings based on their demonstrated skill. Once you have outside influences giving one player an advantage over another before the match even starts, it begins to trivialize any showing of skill, thus the "ranked" aspect is pointless.

I get that quite a few players enjoyed the fact that you could grind for a maxed out PvP deck and then stomp people who didn't put in that same effort, but this kind of gameplay only heightens the enjoyment of the players on top at the expense of those at the bottom. 

Now separating the playerbase into brackets based on deck level would make these issues less apparent, but they wouldn't be removed completely. It would also be pointless to implement currently as there aren't enough players to consistently have matches in each bracket.

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I think it makes sense what Metagross said, if enough people truly want this experience, to grind and play collection mode, then you won't have a problem finding and hosting matches with said players. And the current implementation accommodates this in unranked. Due to the already mentioned principles of fairness in pvp, as well as having a healthy pvp population, ranked pvp needs to be decided by skill not deck level and bf grind/trade timel so I don't understand the desire to change that for ranked. 

As for longevity, it's just artificial longevity, as players are forced to play modes they don't like, just to get on even footing. Even if it is weeks/months, it's still time that is 'wasted' and would feel like a chore, rather than a game you have fun in.

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15 hours ago, Ultrakool said:

As for longevity, it's just artificial longevity, as players are forced to play modes they don't like, just to get on even footing. Even if it is weeks/months, it's still time that is 'wasted' and would feel like a chore, rather than a game you have fun in.

When I started to play Skylords in January 2020, before free PvP decks existed, I had to start with no cards and no upgrades.

That forced me to play PvP and PvE with cards that are not the best but it was fun and interesting experience.

Buying new cards and upgrading them contributed to the fun greatly.

I always preferred PvP (since Battleforge days) so I had to play PvP with low level decks and lost most of the games, but I was fine with it.

What I didn't like so much is grinding gold with PvE (especially rPvE level 9) where most of the gold is.

Unfortunately, losing in Unranked game doesn't give much gold, and most of the gold we get in PvP is if we play ranked games and win.

That was almost impossible for me to achieve in PvP with low level decks so I had to grind gold in rPvE which felt many times as a chore.

So, I am not here to complain.

I just want to point out that there is room for improvements.

One improvement will be to give more gold in PvP so players who prefer PvP don't feel they have to play rPvE for the gold.

Another improvement would be to make Collection PvP more appealing with rewards to encourage players to play it more and allow them to experience the fun of upgrading all the cards in the game and not just the PvE cards.

Now, I am sure that not everyone feel the same as I do, but I am also sure there is enough players out there who feel the same.

Edited by macabi
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2 hours ago, macabi said:

When I started to play Skylords in January 2020, before free PvP decks existed, I had to start with no cards and no upgrades.

That forced me to play PvP and PvE with cards that are not the best but it was fun and interesting experience.

Buying new cards and upgrading them contributed to the fun greatly.

I always preferred PvP (since Battleforge days) so I had to play PvP with low level decks and lost most of the games, but I was fine with it.

What I didn't like so much is grinding gold with PvE (especially rPvE level 9) where most of the gold is.

Unfortunately, losing in Unranked game doesn't give much gold, and most of the gold we get in PvP is if we play ranked games and win.

That was almost impossible for me to achieve in PvP with low level decks so I had to grind gold in rPvE which felt many times as a chore.

So, I am not here to complain.

I just want to point out that there is room for improvements.

One improvement will be to give more gold in PvP so players who prefer PvP don't feel they have to play rPvE for the gold.

Another improvement would be to make Collection PvP more appealing with rewards to encourage players to play it more and allow them to experience the fun of upgrading all the cards in the game and not just the PvE cards.

Now, I am sure that not everyone feel the same as I do, but I am also share there is enough players out there who feel the same.

Not everyone is so fine with losing because their units have lower stats than their opponents. Old battleforge days the ranked ladder was just a list of who had 120 decks for the most part. I may have managed to claw my way to top 50 with subpar upgrades but it's an experience we should definitely do without. Every few upgrades I got to climb more ranks. Some ranked ladder. Getting trapped against the uphill climb of unit stats has absolutely zero place in ranked. I doubt it will affect longevity either, StarCraft has done just fine as rts pvp without needing to give newbs penalties like their Marines doing 20% less damage for being a new player to keep the dirty peasents at the bottom of the ladder like they deserve. To hell with that nonsense. 

 

I do agree pvp could do with higher gold rewards though. I do thank you for essentially making our point for us in your post though. Forced losses are exactly why the system is what it is instead of the old terrible system.

Edited by Torban
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The game doesn't have the playerbase to support grinding PvP cards. 

Anyone whos interested in PvP and joins as a newbie is going to be slaughtered in a PvP grind system and be instantly demotivated to play.
If we had 10k players on all the time that'd be fine, there would be plenty of other newbies for newbies to be matched up with. But we dont.

Realistically we have 500-1500 players on at any time, and we have to keep in mind a large portion of them will be playing PvE.

Locking ranked behind collecting cards is an idea i find pretty revolting, if collecting cards is a thing it should be the other way around, collecting for unranked, all cards free for ranked.

Edited by Squishydew
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Also, if you really are that much into PVP you will still grind your cards and decks since the given 120 pvp decks are good, but not great for specific play styles.

I have played PVP with the 120 decks and they just dont feel right. I don't have my tools that I always use and its not optimal for me, however, it was a great addition to let me play early PVP.

Yet, gold rewards could be increased for PVP in general.

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7 hours ago, Squishydew said:

The game doesn't have the playerbase to support grinding PvP cards. 

Anyone whos interested in PvP and joins as a newbie is going to be slaughtered in a PvP grind system and be instantly demotivated to play.
If we had 10k players on all the time that'd be fine, there would be plenty of other newbies for newbies to be matched up with. But we dont.

Realistically we have 500-1500 players on at any time, and we have to keep in mind a large portion of them will be playing PvE.

Locking ranked behind collecting cards is an idea i find pretty revolting, if collecting cards is a thing it should be the other way around, collecting for unranked, all cards free for ranked.

I agree with you that we don't yet have a player base to support all players for all levels.

I believe most players play PvE and not so much PvP because of the greater gold reward in PvE, especially in rPvE 9 where in one hour a player can gain more than 13,000 gold.

I make only 20% of that if I am lucky after one hour of PvP.

So to increase the player base in PvP we need more gold rewards/achievements for PvP.

We also need more players to join the game.

So I am hopeful the developers put extra effort in advertising the game.

I also suggested earlier adding option for deck level range limitation for PvP to ensure players with similar deck levels play together.

I also agree with "collecting for unranked, all cards free for ranked.". Either way works.

I also think that the game should reward gold when losing Unranked game just like Rank games do.

Keep in mind that 3v3 is popular and is available only in Unranked games, and 2v2 unranked is much easier to find vs 2v2 ranked.

So players who want to play 2v2 or 3v3 (regardless if they want ranked or unranked) have no choice but to play Unranked.

So why not rewarding them with gold even if they lose?

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