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Volin

Speedrun Titles

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Hey folks, hey devs,

not really sure where to put this, as it is a mix of a suggestion and a question:

Are there any plans to make this ranks aviable again? If not, wouldn't it be an idea to do so - not sure with how much work this comes

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In the old days I was so casual that I never even recognized those ranks, I don't even know how they are to obtain.

But it would certainly increase the competition a bit.

Especially the 1 Player Map is often only played by a handfull of people - and I know there are at least a few dozen people that are able to beat BG10.

 

And furthermore - it looks so cool :D

 

Cheers

Edited by Volin
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Hi Volin, in the future we will definitely make use of these ranks, we need to discuss exactly where though. Might be a system like before, might not. Only the future knows :P

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I believe the old system simply gave a player XP at the end of each month depending on what position he was in on the leaderboards. This XP is what allowed the player to get these speedrun ranks, as you can't get these ranks by playing normally (since you don't get XP if you're max rank, excluding these speedrun ranks).

Edited by Ladadoos

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The rewards back in the day were given out manually by the devs depending on top 10 ranks on the leaderboards on each map while 10th place got you 10k Exp and 1st place 2.4 mil

I remember the rewards given out for a few of the higher ranks, towards the bottom my memory is a bit muddy though: it looked something like this:

1st   - 2.4 million
2nd  - 1.2 million
3rd  - 600 k
4th  - 300 k
5th  - 150 k
6th  - 100 k
7th  - 60 k | 80 k | 80 k
8th  - 30 k | 40 k | 50 k
9th  - 20 k | 20 k | 30 k
10th - 10 k

Pretty sure about ranks 1-6 as well as 10; 7-9 I cant remember perfectly. Listed a couple of possiblities

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Ah thanks Treim, do you remember numbers for the ranks too? 

Guess the first pretty "easy" while the last totally insane?

Was is like an alltime achievement, or was it kinda connected to the activity?

 

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26 minutes ago, Volin said:

Ah thanks Treim, do you remember numbers for the ranks too? 

Guess the first pretty "easy" while the last totally insane?

Was is like an alltime achievement, or was it kinda connected to the activity?

 

Chronicle Keeper 14.400.000xp

Loremaster 28.800.000xp

Vigil of the Forge 52.800.000xp

Master of the Forge 100.000.000xp

Once you got the rank, you would always keep it it (so alltime) 

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I like these special ranks for both PvE and PvP. I'm trying to come up with a couple of ideas maybe involving community events/challenges/tournaments and/or semi-permanent options for these ranks.

I'll post it here and hope for others to do the same :D

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9 hours ago, Mynoduesp said:

I like these special ranks for both PvE and PvP. I'm trying to come up with a couple of ideas maybe involving community events/challenges/tournaments and/or semi-permanent options for these ranks.

I'll post it here and hope for others to do the same :D

Keep in mind that one of the problems with these ranks is that it overrules your normal pve rank (at least how it works right now). So it should be special enough to make it worth the loss of the normal rank progression. 

To give you some inspiration, one of the ideas we had so far is a New Game+ experience which basically is a button to reset all your progression (bfp, cards, gold, etc.) which only is possible once you collected all cards fully upgraded. The reward for this would be these ranks, so after doing this 4 times you would become master of the Forge. 

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18 minutes ago, MephistoRoss said:

Keep in mind that one of the problems with these ranks is that it overrules your normal pve rank (at least how it works right now). So it should be special enough to make it worth the loss of the normal rank progression. 

To give you some inspiration, one of the ideas we had so far is a New Game+ experience which basically is a button to reset all your progression (bfp, cards, gold, etc.) which only is possible once you collected all cards fully upgraded. The reward for this would be these ranks, so after doing this 4 times you would become master of the Forge. 

A fun idea if you're into trade and less into playing maps I'm afraid.

Thanks for the input about overwriting PvE ranks, I wouldn't have considered that personally, but you're totally right, I also know ppl who care about PvE ranks more than I do. :^) 

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1 hour ago, VolvoxGlobator said:

He wants the speed rank! :-D

Not sure if you are speaking of Zyna, or me :)

But I guess you are right in both cases. Zyna has it and I wouldn't say no to that titles. Thats was my reason to ask for it. :D

Only taking part with the mobile, some deeper thoughts later.

 

First step should be what MephistoRoss already did, collecting general ideas about a system we can agree on - not too detailed for now. I will sum up those ideas in the opening thread later, too

On the issue that the golden ranks "overwrite" those normal pve ranks:

I think that shouldn't be a big problem. First of all those golden ranks seem to be more shiny. Most people would not even complain if their 4*Purple rank would be overwritten by a golden rank, or? 

But perhaps it would be possible to implement a system where people could choose among their obtained titles which one they want to display, as many games do. @Devs: What would you say from the gut, would such a thing be very complicated to implement? (Long term seen ofc)

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3 hours ago, Volin said:

Not sure if you are speaking of Zyna, or me :)

But I guess you are right in both cases. Zyna has it and I wouldn't say no to that titles. Thats was my reason to ask for it. :D

 

Only taking part with the mobile, some deeper thoughts later.

 

First step should be what MephistoRoss already did, collecting general ideas about a system we can agree on - not too detailed for now. I will sum up those ideas in the opening thread later, too

On the issue that the golden ranks "overwrite" those normal pve ranks:

I think that shouldn't be a big problem. First of all those golden ranks seem to be more shiny. Most people would not even complain if their 4*Purple rank would be overwritten by a golden rank, or? 

But perhaps it would be possible to implement a system where people could choose among their obtained titles which one they want to display, as many games do. @Devs: What would you say from the gut, would such a thing be very complicated to implement? (Long term seen ofc)

Technically this would be possible to implement, yes.

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The issue is not so much that people wouldn't like for their normal rank to be overwritten, but it is more that the normal exp progression system looses meaning if it is too easy for many players to skip these ranks. For example if the old system with the monthly speedrun exp would be implemented, what would be the point of earning a few 1000 exp in normal games while with just one run of Siege of Hope skips you get 2.4 million. 

The beauty of the normal pve ranks is that you can see from the rank which players have invested a lot of time in this (pve) game and which players are relative new. So it is basically a way to show off your experience. 

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4 minutes ago, MephistoRoss said:

The issue is not so much that people wouldn't like for their normal rank to be overwritten, but it is more that the normal exp progression system looses meaning if it is too easy for many players to skip these ranks. For example if the old system with the monthly speedrun exp would be implemented, what would be the point of earning a few 1000 exp in normal games while with just one run of Siege of Hope skips you get 2.4 million. 

The beauty of the normal pve ranks is that you can see from the rank which players have invested a lot of time in this (pve) game and which players are relative new. So it is basically a way to show off your experience. 

Isnt that entirely avoidable if you just implement an entry requirement to get these Exp - let it be Skylord rank or something along those lines. If someone with a Speedrun rank comes along then everyone knows that he has at least reached that rank by normal means.
Also I think it would make sense to lower rewards or exclude maps with fixed min. times like Defending Hope, Siege of Hope - guess Crusade, Treasure Fleet and Titans would be a couple other candidates for that, even though the exact strategies are a lot less known for the latter 3.

With that approach not sure if it would be usefull to "save" Exp similar to a reserve that get applied to the account once it hits the minimum rank threshhoold (e.g. Skylord).
 

Imo these ranks don't have to be super hard to enable (Skylord should be easily doable), the real test is getting all the high placings to reach max. rank!

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Uh, did not really get all that you said Treim. But later more on that what I understood.

The first thing I have to realize for myself is that not only do I have no experience with the speedrun titles, but I also have a very limited and personal perspective on the game. I play mainly battlegrounds and only had those 3 ladders in mind - I had completely forgotten that there is that campain thingy :P

Also, only today, through Mephisto's last post, I understood that the numbers of Treim are normal XP. I had thought, because they are speedrun titles, that this is a completely separate point system. This would be another valid option for our new system btw. Especially with the option that you can choose your titles freely among the titles you have already received, it would be a possibility for the 4 speedrun titles to simply introduce their own point system. This would solve the problem that speedruns are very effective in some PvE maps to gain experience. Both together, the problems of "overlapping" titles would no longer be a problem.

2 hours ago, MephistoRoss said:

The beauty of the normal pve ranks is that you can see from the rank which players have invested a lot of time in this (pve) game and which players are relative new. So it is basically a way to show off your experience. 

This rather does not correspond with my experience. I am a good example for this, having Archon rank atm. Guess I did 99% of my XP in Battlegrounds - but many people may assume from my rank that I am perhaps a usefull mate for expert campains, I don't have a clue on most of these. There are some maps that I have perhaps never completet on expert so far.

And on the other hand, I see almost daily purple ranks in BG9 or BG10 that have not even a clue on the most basic mechanics there. (its the right hut seen from the entrance !!! :) )

But if many people share your view, this is a thing we have to concern about indeed. But I personally guess if someone earns one of the speedrun titels, takes the option to show this speedrun title instead of his quite low pve rank, the speedrun rank still shows more about that player then his, lets say high silver rank, does. Because if he can do constant top10 ranks over month that show quite some skill.

8 hours ago, MephistoRoss said:

To give you some inspiration, one of the ideas we had so far is a New Game+ experience which basically is a button to reset all your progression (bfp, cards, gold, etc.) which only is possible once you collected all cards fully upgraded. The reward for this would be these ranks, so after doing this 4 times you would become master of the Forge.

Love this idea, though it would be a crazy achievement!

In order to carry the idea forward, how would it be to invent and introduce 4 further titles with the community as additional "collecter ranks"?
Together with the idea of making the titles freely selectable, that sounds - for me - more and more round.

 

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Yeah this account resetting sounds more like a separate thing to me, prolly indeed collectors ranks. But getting this fully ranked up will probably take half a decade^^

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On 9/12/2020 at 2:27 PM, LEBOVIN said:

Yeah this account resetting sounds more like a separate thing to me, prolly indeed collectors ranks. But getting this fully ranked up will probably take half a decade^^

Five years sounds realistic, perhaps even a bit more I would think. But that sounds like a good aim for me. This would be the time horizon with which one could and should plan for the probably largest achievement around, in my opionion. And if the devs would take up Mephisto's idea, this would indeed be the greatest achievement to be achieved :) I personally would love the idea.


Btw, I had some thoughts on the general system for the speedrun titles. But I always come back to the system as it used to be, i.e. there are points for the highest places at the end of the month and the ranks are unlocked from a certain number of points.

What I personally didn't like about the old system is the distribution of these points and that these points represent the normal EXP. But I think that the basic question of a system should be asked first and that it should be discussed in detail afterwards.

Does anyone else have another revolutionary idea for a fundamentally different system after that the speedrun titles could be awarded?

 

Apart from Zyna (on the theoretical feasibility), no one has yet commented on the idea of a free choice of titles, what do you think?

I think that free choice could never hurt anyone, because some people win something, but nobody loses anything. But maybe I am missing something again

 

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On 9/11/2020 at 8:49 AM, MephistoRoss said:

Keep in mind that one of the problems with these ranks is that it overrules your normal pve rank (at least how it works right now). So it should be special enough to make it worth the loss of the normal rank progression. 

To give you some inspiration, one of the ideas we had so far is a New Game+ experience which basically is a button to reset all your progression (bfp, cards, gold, etc.) which only is possible once you collected all cards fully upgraded. The reward for this would be these ranks, so after doing this 4 times you would become master of the Forge. 

Unfortunatly I'm very sceptical about a prestige-system (new game+). On one hand they would be very special and function as a currency sink for the economy, on the other hand the relative distribution would be heavily weighted towards urltra rares, ultimatly further expanding the general price gap between chase cards and regulars.

Additionaly would those ranks more often be achived by traders than speedrunners/actual player who play the game. This wouldn't be a bad thing, just a different thing from intended "speedrunner"-ranks. 

Also, don't ignore PvP in this discussion. Yes this is about a PvE achivement which can overwrite your PvE rank, but the same possibility should be given to PvP players to overwrite their ranks.

Lastly, if these ranks should be achived by in game achivements (which cannot be lost over time until a certain threshold), we should be concerned about distribution. A.e. If only 3 players would get such rank you can be very sure in a year or so, maybe 6 players at all will get those ranks. Pretty good for the hardcore competative scene, but very unmotivating for above average players. Easily fixable with increasing numbers if distributed ranks though. And a concern when a system needs to be fleshed out. 

My general idea:

Overall, once achived these ranks cannot be lost below 17 - Chronicle Keeper (fitting name lol). No rank 17 should be achived directly, it would only be achivable by getting the higher ranks 20, 19 or 18 first and getting deranked to 17 on the monthly reset.

For PvP:

Every month top 10 positions (very few bc the playerbase is small and there are two ladders) get the special ranks 20 - Master of the Forge, 19 - Vigil of the Forge and 18 - Loremaster. Only one rank 20, three rank 19 and six rank 18. Depending on the # of rewarded players, numbers for rank 19 and 18 would change, I'd say in general in PvP just 1 rank 20, one third of remaining rewarded players rank 19 and two thirds rank 18. (For 2v2 PvP each member of the ranking position would get the ranks.) 

Additionally a soft ladder reset every month, normalizing the elo values to more easily climb the ladder and push top players down.

For PvE:

Changing the map to compete every season/month instead of overall storymap competition:

Similar to PvP there would be a singleplayer ladder and a team ladder. For a singleplayer map and a 2, 3, 4 player map respectivly. Ranks would be distributed by position on the specific ladder like PvP.

(I suggest singleplayer and multiplayer ladders because aus of player preferences and accessability. Players who don't want to play multiplayer should still be able to achive these ranks.) 

These two maps "of the month" could either be regular story maps or community maps such as "Rise of a Demon" or "Into the wild" or even altered story maps with special restrictions aka certain banned cards or additional goals (only t3/destroy building XY as example) which would add new challenges for old maps.

What do you think? 

On 9/11/2020 at 2:11 PM, MephistoRoss said:

The issue is not so much that people wouldn't like for their normal rank to be overwritten, but it is more that the normal exp progression system looses meaning if it is too easy for many players to skip these ranks. For example if the old system with the monthly speedrun exp would be implemented, what would be the point of earning a few 1000 exp in normal games while with just one run of Siege of Hope skips you get 2.4 million. 

The beauty of the normal pve ranks is that you can see from the rank which players have invested a lot of time in this (pve) game and which players are relative new. So it is basically a way to show off your experience. 

I didn't put much thoughts into this aspect, maybe it is possible to just add those ranks besides the normal PvE and PvP ranks. Just adding these ranks below the currently existing ones. 

I'll do some scuffed paint magic when I get home to illustrate what I mean. :D

Edited by Mynoduesp

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