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Kubik

Balance changes Balance changes to game

Balancing the game  

272 members have voted

  1. 1. Would you like us to do some balance changes before the release/wipe?

  2. 2. Where you prefere discusion about the proposed values to be



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13 minutes ago, Kubik said:
  1. When the map was released that card did not exist
  2. so you skip part of map, just because single card
  3. check map next time you will be playing it it show you which monuments you should have

Because of that I thin it is a bug, that they add card without checking for consequences (not to mention that you have the orb for only 250 instead of 300 power, that can aslos make big difference on some other maps, yes ability cost 160 power, but you get 100% of that back)

Battleforge did not shut down immediately after release of Amii and back in the days already people found that mechanic and EA did not do anything about it. 

So they kinda approved it (probably you can find discussions about it in the old forum).

The energy cost is an amii specific thing and does not propose a map exclusive issue.

Why not simply update the quest indicators so that no monument blinks. Pretty sure EA didn’t care about that and that’s why nothing was done about it.

Skipping parts of the map (here a relatively small part as the core story is pretty much done and ur t4 already) is not necessarily a bad thing. Players can still play it without amii, but as advocate of freedom why do you have to enforce those that happily skip clearing the last part, to play what they don’t like.

As I mentioned in my previous post if you really think you have to, do it in a 4th difficulty.

9 hours ago, Chibiterasu said:

I would love to see some balance changes especially some nerf for those way too often used LSS, Amii-Monument and Enlightment/Batariel in Pve. However I think in the latter case there should be more of a change in the way it works instead of simple number changes.

Nobody forces you to play them all the time right now.

Why does it sound good to you to force others stop playing what they like? 

Edited by LEBOVIN

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oh so you would like "pecefull" mode for all maps? :thinking:

3 minutes ago, LEBOVIN said:

skip clearing the last part, to play what they don’t like. 

:thinking: so you want insta win all maps where main objective is to kill the boss?

Doesn't that sound at least bit wrong to you?

4 minutes ago, LEBOVIN said:

So they kinda approved it

If you so agree with EA why are you even here? :thinking: they kinda approved game being dead

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6 minutes ago, Kubik said:

oh so you would like "pecefull" mode for all maps? :thinking:

:thinking: so you want insta win all maps where main objective is to kill the boss?

Doesn't that sound at least bit wrong to you?

If you so agree with EA why are you even here? :thinking: they kinda approved game being dead

There is no boss in the end part u are skipping in soultree

I do only agree in that one point with ea not changing amii on soultree. Ofc not their decision to shut down.

not sure what the peaceful mode is about but If u mean my proposed 4th difficulty: very hard, it is actually quite the opposite as its name says:

-there you could not play amii

-map as always quite a bit harder in terms of enemies etc.

Edited by LEBOVIN

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sorry typo "peaceful" like not have to kill all the enemies, just skip them, because you want to "happily skip clearing the last part"

I know what "DifficultyVeryHard" is :P and you may get a nice suprise in that regard :D 

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10 minutes ago, Kubik said:

sorry typo "peaceful" like not have to kill all the enemies, just skip them, because you want to "happily skip clearing the last part"

I know what "DifficultyVeryHard" is :P and you may get a nice suprise in that regard :D 

Well I only want a surprise if we agree to refrain from the amii change :)

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Ah and regarding the how would you display pvp only changes on the card:

simply add another of these ability „bullet points“ like the effect „Swift“ and name it „pvp“ and then if u hover over the card u see specified what is different there 

and if it is technically difficult then just postpone balancing until u have that feature developed ...

Edited by LEBOVIN

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4 minutes ago, Kubik said:

and if it will not fit? there are already some cards that do not fit and some text overflow in some languages

Well then apply the same solution you intent to apply to the already existing cases 

for instance: change Font size by -1

Edited by LEBOVIN

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50 minutes ago, LEBOVIN said:

Battleforge did not shut down immediately after release of Amii and back in the days already people found that mechanic and EA did not do anything about it. 

So they kinda approved it (probably you can find discussions about it in the old forum).

The energy cost is an amii specific thing and does not propose a map exclusive issue.

Why not simply update the quest indicators so that no monument blinks. Pretty sure EA didn’t care about that and that’s why nothing was done about it.

Skipping parts of the map (here a relatively small part as the core story is pretty much done and ur t4 already) is not necessarily a bad thing. Players can still play it without amii, but as advocate of freedom why do you have to enforce those that happily skip clearing the last part, to play what they don’t like.

As I mentioned in my previous post if you really think you have to, do it in a 4th difficulty.

Nobody forces you to play them all the time right now.

Why does it sound good to you to force others stop playing what they like? 

 

There were and still are many things in this game that are bugged. Just look at second chance. You can't tell me EA wanted to make make this card randomly fail for no obvious reason. At some point EA just stopped fixing bugs because they just want to make a bit more money out of the game before they shut it down. And it's not really a small part. It's the final area with the biggest units so you actually can call it a boss.

 

You can also add a card that does infinit damage to every AI unit so that you win instantly. You don't have to play that card if you actually want to play the game after all...

I don't want to remove the cards from the game. They will still be there after a nerf and people who like those cards will still play them. However people who just "like" them because they are the most effective way of playing don't really care about the cards. They just want to win the map and therefore it doesn't really matter for them since they will eventually play another easy strategy.

 

2 hours ago, Pritstift said:

Please define what is balance in battleforge for you? With the existing cards and how they work you can create a lot of different tactics - so why i should want to have balance changes in pve? I dont see any balance problems in pve - many players here try to see problems/balance problems but what about to accept the current mechanism and in consequence how the game works. Is this not the reason why you like to play battleforge?

I will give you some examples:

 

-Amii-Monument - i have no problem to play with or without Amii-Monument - for speedruns for sure i will use it - but is this really a balance problem? For speedruns you can use every existing option to make the run faster...Also for beginners this card can be helpful to finish expert maps. So some players here think that the same content will be better just after changing Amii-Monument? This makes no sence for me to be honest. To playblight or rpve with or without Amii-Monument will not change the balance - expert maps are still easy to play without Amii-Monument. So you should accept the Amii-Monument like it is and you can use it if you want or dont use it if you dont want.

 

-SOW - this card is perfect to make the game fast and it does fit to many different deck-colour combinations. So is it really balanching to change this card e.g. to 3x fire orbs? The consequence will be that less players will use SOW and just because some players think it is cool to play pure fire we will not have a better balanching. You should try to accept this card like it is and you can use it if you want or dont use if dont want. Also sow is a big help when you play with randoms players that have no clue about any void manipulation...

 

For me all existing maps are easy to play - so it makes no sence for me to change some important cards just with the idea to bring more balance and indireclty making the maps somehow harder...The maps are still easy to play even with a changed Amii-Monument , SOW....Afer you may have the idea to change other cards like cultist masters , englightment, batariel....

You just destroying the mechanics in this game we love it for...better concentrate on totally useless cards to bring more options for strategies in pve/pvp instead of killing core mechanics of the game...

 

"Also for beginners this card can be helpful to finish expert maps" Beginners shouldn't really be able to beat expert maps, should they? They are called "expert" for a reason...

Of cause for an expert they are easy to beat. When you know how and what cards are usefull for that map. But like I said a beginner shouldn't be able to beat them as well just because of 2 or 3 cards. When a person is a beginner and he jumps into a mission at the highest difficulty, he should get stomped, that's good game design. There's no use in getting better in this game when you can beat everything without even knowing what 90% of the cards do.

I wouldn't call it a mechanic when certain things can compensate your lack of skill :D

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12 minutes ago, Kubik said:

multiple people said it is already too small that they can not read it. I can read it but bit bigger would be better so that is not valid option

Then make the screen frame bigger for the infotexts?

if you mean the bullet point „pvp“ being to small just use an icon instead and put that on the card somewhere to indicate there are pvp changes that can be read if hovered over

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3 hours ago, LEBOVIN said:

Well I stated my reasoning, nerfs permanently lower possible times in speedruns. What exactly is good about that ? 

You would like to spend more time in Soultree cause post-nerf amii  is no longer an option ?

 

Of course.

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6 minutes ago, Loriens said:

Of course.

Well I don’t.

If you like to finish the map slower then possible feel free to do so, but it doesn’t sound fair to me to inhibit other players freedom by changes that ensure everybody can ONLY play the slower way you like.

(whilst my proposition keeps both options available)

Edited by LEBOVIN
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look at upgraded nomad for example there are already 4 points, and no space for another point, and if health would be changed for example and you would make it only a small point, and someone would not notice it then he would be suprised his unit has less health, or if maps is both PvP and there are montests thould the unit have PvP health + PvE health, because they will be fighting both?

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While I prefer the forum, I see that discord could work if it were very systematized with individual channels for each card (a different balance specific server would also be good). The ability to ban/allow certain people per server is also a bonus. One issue with discord is the inability to quote someone else, this is especially an issue if the person's post was from awhile back.

@Kubik Would you be able to add abilities to units such as swift, steadfast, or slow? Additionally would you be able to add/remove knockback from abilities or change damage modifiers (S -> M, M-> *).

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3 hours ago, Pritstift said:

Please define what is balance in battleforge for you? With the existing cards and how they work you can create a lot of different tactics - so why i should want to have balance changes in pve? I dont see any balance problems in pve - many players here try to see problems/balance problems but what about to accept the current mechanism and in consequence how the game works. Is this not the reason why you like to play battleforge?

I do think in this thread we do not talk about really huge balance changes, which can completely change whole balance in Battleforge.
We are talking about obvious problems, mostly about PvP, like Phase/Mortar and green Nether Warp.
I meant that if balance changes somehow affect speedrun tactic, speedrunners in other game usually simply find out new sequence for best time.

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27 minutes ago, Kubik said:

look at upgraded nomad for example there are already 4 points, and no space for another point, and if health would be changed for example and you would make it only a small point, and someone would not notice it then he would be suprised his unit has less health, or if maps is both PvP and there are montests thould the unit have PvP health + PvE health, because they will be fighting both?

Make it a visual indicator, like cards that were marked for tome decks.

second point I don’t get, or how can a map be pvp and pve at the same time ?

13 minutes ago, Loriens said:

I do think in this thread we do not talk about really huge balance changes, which can completely change whole balance in Battleforge.
We are talking about obvious problems, mostly about PvP, like Phase/Mortar and green Nether Warp.
I meant that if balance changes somehow affect speedrun tactic, speedrunners in other game usually simply find out new sequence for best time.

Well ofc because then other things automatically become the new best.

But having a worse then previous best as incentive to get other players to play? Since you as experienced player can freely decide without the changes if u want to master a different slower strategy aswell

——————

Also: Look ah the amount of people who voted (- those with multi accounts) and

where are the hundreds of eagerly waiting players out there ? Vote boys and girls !

Edited by LEBOVIN
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20 minutes ago, LEBOVIN said:

Well I don’t.

If you like to finish the map slower then possible feel free to do so, but it doesn’t sound fair to me to inhibit other players freedom by changes that ensure everybody can ONLY play the slower way you like.

(whilst my proposition keeps both options available)

This is a flawed reasoning, let me illustrate via two examples, one for PvP and one for PvE.

(1) Imagine you are playing checkers. In checkers you can only move forward, until a piece is kinged, and you must jump a piece if it is possible. Now imagine you set up a nice 2 for 3 jump trap for your opponent but when he falls for it he refuses to execute the jump. He says that the rules of checkers violates his "freedom" and not only should he not have to jump, and thus give you a piece advantage, but he should also be allowed to move backwards at any time. You would rightfully think this absurd as the game isn't a game without rules and freedom in the game exists only because the rules exist. Your opponent checker nihilism/relativism in defense of his "freedom" would make the game itself unplayable. This is the PvP example.

(2) Imagine you are running a 5K race. When you start the race you run the first 2 kilometers and are tied with a fellow runner. At this point your fellow runner stops, walks over to a car waiting on the side of the road, and decides to drive the next 2 kilometers. You run the fastest 5K time ever on that course, but your fellow runner unsurprisingly wins the race and "runs" faster then you, such that he know holds the course record. When you confront him afterwards that he violated the norms of the race and cheated/exploited the system by driving he tells you that "it doesn't sound fair to me to inhibit other runners' freedom by forcing them to only run in the slower way that you like". Now its obvious this person's appeal to freedom is absurd, because unless the norms of the race are enforced, then their is no reason for the competition in the first place. Additionally, his time should be stricken from the record for its exploitation to begin with. This is the PvE example, and I think its obvious to see how to fits the scenario with cards like Amii Monument in Soultree. 

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22 minutes ago, LEBOVIN said:

second point I don’t get, or how can a map be pvp and pve at the same time ?

simply put NPC on map with 2 player teams there is multiple requests for more maps like that last one:

 

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17 minutes ago, WindHunter said:

This is a flawed reasoning, let me illustrate via two examples, one for PvP and one for PvE.

(1) Imagine you are playing checkers. In checkers you can only move forward, until a piece is kinged, and you must jump a piece if it is possible. Now imagine you set up a nice 2 for 3 jump trap for your opponent but when he falls for it he refuses to execute the jump. He says that the rules of checkers violates his "freedom" and not only should he not have to jump, and thus give you a piece advantage, but he should also be allowed to move backwards at any time. You would rightfully think this absurd as the game isn't a game without rules and freedom in the game exists only because the rules exist. Your opponent checker nihilism/relativism in defense of his "freedom" would make the game itself unplayable. This is the PvP example.

(2) Imagine you are running a 5K race. When you start the race you run the first 2 kilometers and are tied with a fellow runner. At this point your fellow runner stops, walks over to a car waiting on the side of the road, and decides to drive the next 2 kilometers. You run the fastest 5K time ever on that course, but your fellow runner unsurprisingly wins the race and "runs" faster then you, such that he know holds the course record. When you confront him afterwards that he violated the norms of the race and cheated/exploited the system by driving he tells you that "it doesn't sound fair to me to inhibit other runners' freedom by forcing them to only run in the slower way that you like". Now its obvious this person's appeal to freedom is absurd, because unless the norms of the race are enforced, then their is no reason for the competition in the first place. Additionally, his time should be stricken from the record for its exploitation to begin with. This is the PvE example, and I think its obvious to see how to fits the scenario with cards like Amii Monument in Soultree. 

Well your examples address a different situation.

In your examples the rules are always set and the player behaves against these  rules.

But in BattleForge currently moving backwards in chess or using the car in the race (=exploits) is allowed.

So you guys want a change of the existing rules.

——————-

7 minutes ago, Kubik said:

simply put NPC on map with 2 player teams there is multiple requests for more maps like that last one:

 

Well that doesn’t exist yet, and if you do it remains pvp, the npcs, like Minions in lol, remain secondary, primary the players fight each other with the minions as sidequest to get some kind of bonus 

as this would also be listed in the map under pvp it should have pvp rules apply to it 

Edited by LEBOVIN
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his example was good, no one said car can not be used during the race, so someone exploited it after the car was invented, also no one said you can not use jetpcack, teleport or any other device they did not think about when they was creating the rules.

These maps already exist, you can simply create them with map editor.

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14 minutes ago, Kubik said:

his example was good, no one said car can not be used during the race, so someone exploited it after the car was invented, also no one said you can not use jetpcack, teleport or any other device they did not think about when they was creating the rules.

These maps already exist, you can simply create them with map editor.

So? U say it ur self :“ when they was creating the rules“

and these rules allow players to make choices freely

and you want to change that now, hence Reduce  freedom

——

npc maps: ok.

Edited by LEBOVIN

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So you would like us to create card that kill everything on the map so you can be first on leaderbors if you manage to play it fastest, because no one expecting that card to exist when they was creating the rules so it is fine to add it later, rules will be the same, and players that do not want to use that car will not be forced to, unles whey will want to get competitive times...

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14 minutes ago, Kubik said:

So you would like us to create card that kill everything on the map so you can be first on leaderbors if you manage to play it fastest, because no one expecting that card to exist when they was creating the rules so it is fine to add it later, rules will be the same, and players that do not want to use that car will not be forced to, unles whey will want to get competitive times...

Why do u guys keep coming up with this exaggerated example of the instant win card? I don’t ever requested you to introduce that, nor change an existing card into that. 

——

if you play fastest ofc you should be ranked 1

“no one expecting that card to exist“ read in current game (because every card is known) as „no one thought that strategy would work“ and you got the key to becoming first

———-

It would be compliant with the rules yes

Edited by LEBOVIN
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so you even agree that card that make even bigger difference that amii moument would be "compliant with the rules"
"Why do u guys keep coming up with this exaggerated example" isn't that obvious? because amii monument on soultree do exactly the same

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