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Mind Control (T4 Card) - Upcoming Changes


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As part of our upcoming Nature balance changes, Mind Control will be receiving the following proposed changes. Please note that all changes proposed here are provisional and as such as subject to change:

Iteration 1
1. Power cost 300p --> 250p
2. Charges: 4 --> 8
3. Takeover limit: 300p --> 350p
4. Allow to be used past the population limit.
4. New effect: Mind controlled unit is cleansed of all debuffs and immune to all major debuffs for 10 seconds.
   C. New Description: "Grants permanent control over an enemy unit with a maximum of 4 orbs and 220 / 250 / 250 / 350 power costs. Immediately removes all debuffs and mind controlled unit is immune to all major debuffs for 10 seconds. Reusable every 60 / 60 / 30 / 30 seconds. The dominated target does not allow to play out cards next to it."

Iteration 1 Goals
With the recent PTS changes we have been able to properly assign power and orb costs to PvE units. As such, we will soon remove the mind control restriction on Lost Souls units. This means Mind Control as a card and other mind control units will no longer be dead weights against the faction. Even so, we think the card Mind Control will still need some help so we are reducing its power cost by 16%. Nature also usually struggles against buildings. We are introducing an initial Disenchant(g) effect on use to promote controlling enemies in the enemy back-line and using them to destroy key positions.

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  • WindHunter changed the title to Mind Control (T4 Card) - Upcoming Changes

Pernament mind control effects are always powerful, as they not only insta-kill the enemy, but also make him fight on your side instead, drag enemy fire from your precious units and wreak havoc among enemy ranks.

 

However, I never felt Mind Control is interesting enough, as it didn't feel cost effective, and there were other, easier to access, support options available. I can't wait to see what the new version of the spell can achieve in-game.

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Those spell changes sound very fair.  As is the spell is extremely costly and the controlled unit can potentially be killed quick.  However, it overall is powerful in that it grants an unbound unit whose cost goes directly into Void.  Especially with the changes I'm thinking it should potentially be a pure nature card to make it more difficult to pair with things like Offering and Shrine of War.

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Overall, the problem with Mind control is not the card, but the fact that 3 green 1 orb is a very weak t4 overall. We need to address that fact eventually.

 

After extensive testing, I've found 2 Green + 2 other orb is always better. Even if you use cultist offering, mind control can not compensate for 3 green orb + t4's lack of spells and unique creatures. The power void income from free creatures can't overcome this weakness.

 

***name very good creature and cards in those colors. I bet you had trouble past abyssal warders,grove spirit, timeshifters and promise of life. Colossus and vim are crappy for example. Most of the actual good stuff can be played with 2 green required already, so whats left yea?

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I have to agree with @chickennoodler in general. Though we have heard on the other thread, that in concept Mind Control is super powerful (you remove and enemy and "spawn" an ally), it simply isn't. I have heard "take 2 shadow orbs, and you get frenetic" 1000 times, or "with 2 fire orbs you get cluster and earthshaker", etc. etc. Did anybody ever hear "With 2/3/4 Nature orbs, you get..."? That's because all those spells are either useless or severely under powered.

A comparable spell is Plague (since 3-shadow orbs required), and it disables AND annihilates not just one unit but everything in that camp (if it isn't one of the in the last row). I frankly don't understand why everybody is so worried to buff nature them to keep it "in check", while power-wise, other factions roll like a Deathstar through the camps, no matter if cPVE or rPVE.

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I'd say the value of takeover tampers off as you ascend through tiers as you naturally get more powerful options enabled in your own deck.

By T4 you have access to all these powerful cards so insta-killing and then owning one unbound enemy unit compared to just flattening it with your arsenal isn't as good anymore. The firepower you have at this point is generally enough to deal with it regularly.

Also worth noting that one of the outlined weaknesses of the Nature faction is that it binds a high amount of energy to units. Mind Control could alleviate this because it can provide T4 equivalent units without binding energy. But a 30 seconds CD isn't able to keep up.

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I think mind control mechanics is really powerful but Mind Control the card is not.

 

Going back to why mind control is really powerful:

1. You can get something much powerful than you could otherwise (definitely true for Nightguard and mostly true for Parasite Swarm... I rarely pay attention for Mind Control so I could have missed it but as far as I know, my own T4 units are better in terms of raw stats and definitely synergies). It definitely make sense you can't win by using Mind Control on boss and mostly agree with the limit on "mini boss" targets so that really caps but unfortunately haven't seen any attractive targets outside of those (again would be well due to my lack of trying).

 

2. Having "free units" (no bound power). With some rough math, comparing when you have like 500 total power, you might normally have that bound in form of around 5 to 6 units but instead of that, you could say steal around 5 better than you could summon units AND have free power to either steal/summon more units OR support them with spells (that is like 200% or greater power effective power). Early T4, you might still have a bit of that dynamics but problem is #1 (no attractive targets) and that transition is fairly short such that it isn't a problem most of the time. Then towards the finish of a map, I typically have so much free power that does it matter if I have 1000+ or 2000+ or "infinite" free power? NO!

 

I think all the proposed changes will make Mind Control a little more useable but totally agree Mind Control isn't all that powerful right now and I don't think that'll change even with the "buffs".

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18 hours ago, Cocofang said:

By T4 you have access to all these powerful cards so insta-killing and then owning one unbound enemy unit compared to just flattening it with your arsenal isn't as good anymore. The firepower you have at this point is generally enough to deal with it regularly.

Exactly, that's why it's hard for me to understand we can't put a Goodie here and there into the mix. It's not like you should be able to take over a boss, but the "normal" Bandit Lord that's sometimes in a camp is a prime example of a unit using Mind Control on, then you would get something that made it worth taking the card along. Since that dude is still alot weaker then a Bloodhorn or a Batariel, what's the problem with allowing that?

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That'd only be useful in the handful of cases whenever you happen to encounter these enemies. It wouldn't help the card perform better across the board. I don't really have a problem with those mini-bosses being immune. Personally, I'd like a shorter CD to bulk up a Nature army and free up energy for spells.

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  • 1 month later...

I think the question of whether or not this will be strong enough is a fair one. As-is, Mind Control is rarely if ever used, so, as always, I'd like to cautiously move forward in the process. In the first step we can see if the card fits a distinct niche within 3N+ decks, and then we can adjust its power level appropriately. Whether that is through changing Mind Control's available targets, its cooldown, its power cost, or any other option we can determine once we see it in action.

I would like to point out that there will be zero changes to NPC power and orb costs in the upcoming patch. As such, Mind Control will continue to work on all T5 units in the upcoming patch, as the existing bug will not be fixed until the fuller changes are implemented. This should provide us with plenty of testing data to determine if this is an issue which needs adjusted or if this is an appropriate power level for the card and for Nature as a faction. 

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