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One mixed orb Lost Souls/Stonekin/Bandit/Amii


Delendar

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Idea: Seeing how there are now mixed orbs as seen on Nightshade Plant... wouldn't it be possible to have some Tier 1 non-base faction cards?

Reason: Fully factional decks and make some redundant/lacking units useful at a lower tier. It opens the possibility of granting the lowest tier units that one normally encounters in pve, more strategies as they could be summoned alongside pure-element units and creates new niches. As some ideas for Tier 1:

  • Bandit: Commandos and Banditos. There are currently way too many bandit tier 2 that no one uses or are so incredibly situational they barely are chosen.
  • Twilight: Twilight Minions and the chance of including some human twilight archers as the elven ones are already covered by the Tier 3 Twilight Slayers.
  • Lost Souls: There are currently no S sized group-type Lost Souls units at the moment so it could be a chance to create new ones!

Actual Reason: This is just wishful thinking for the sole purpose of having a 100% faction deck and not have to start with one of the base factions to then move onto a mixed one. I don't have the slightest hope for this but the mixed orb is out there, so this is not impossible.

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This comes up every so often, some things to consider;

The game gives you the orb of the first unit you spawn. It wont know what to give you for a t1 hybrid

These would be extremely hard to balance, and the time for that was considered better spend on other new cards.

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2 hours ago, Majora said:

This comes up every so often, some things to consider;

The game gives you the orb of the first unit you spawn. It wont know what to give you for a t1 hybrid

These would be extremely hard to balance, and the time for that was considered better spend on other new cards.

Mhm, well, that makes sense. I shall get back to this with a more comprehensive and detailed analysis on ideas as for how it could be implemented considering various factors instead of throwing a wild idea and let you do all the figuring out.

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6 hours ago, Majora said:

This comes up every so often, some things to consider;

The game gives you the orb of the first unit you spawn. It wont know what to give you for a t1 hybrid

These would be extremely hard to balance, and the time for that was considered better spend on other new cards.

And here I am...

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Orb Assignment
One of the main concerns is, clearly, the automatic orb assignment when a Tier 1 hybrid unit is summoned. To address this, we could explore different methods of assigning the initial orb, taking into account the following ideas:

A. Pre-Game Selection of Starting Orb (Probably the more simple option)

  • At the start of a match, if the player hasn't played a card, allow the player to manually choose the primary orb type they want to start with by choosing the element from the orb monument as normal but at no cost and no building time once.
    • Pros: This gives players control over their starting strategy, is very intuitive and fits within the existing game mechanics. Offers a more generic approach as this can work as a base mechanic of the game itself, not necessarily something exclusive to hybrid cards.
    • Cons: Players desiring to play hybrid cards might find this adds an unnecessary step to the game start.

B. Orb-Based Prioritization System (My personal preference)

  • Assign a predefined primary orb to each Tier 1 hybrid card. For example, a Tier 1 Bandit hybrid card could default to a Fire orb if the card is the first unit summoned. This could be displayed with some effect related to the predefined orb color somewhere in the card, for example as a red ring around its orb cost meaning it will produce a Fire Orb or a purple ring meaning it will produce a Shadow Orb.
    • Pros: No new UI is required; uses existing game mechanics. Easy to balance around predefined orb choices. Forms of display are easy to be made intuitive.
    • Cons: Limits player flexibility in choosing which faction they want to focus on first, which could reduce the appeal of hybrid cards.
      • Note: This can be circumvented by giving different affinities a different starting orb, although this may be undesirable considering each modified abilitiy.

C. Dynamic Orb Assignment via Card Affinity

  • Use affinities on hybrid cards to determine their orb requirements, with the affinity of each card being tied to a particular orb element, specified in the tooltip of the modified ability, for instance, the Tier 1 Banditos with Frost affinity could have, at the end of its ability "Blessed Alliance", 'This card summons a Fire Orb'. 
    • Pros: Utilizes existing affinity mechanics in a novel way. Adds strategic depth without overcomplicating the UI.
    • Cons: Could be confusing for new players unfamiliar with the affinity system, as affinities have traditionally influenced only card effects, not orb requirements. And the need to read a text is always a challenge on dynamic gameplay where speed is more desirable than wasting time finding out which card does what.

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Balancing Concerns
Balancing Tier 1 hybrid cards is essential, especially in PvP contexts where Tier 1 units form a great part of many strategies, as well as many campaign maps where the Tier 2 and Tier 3 orbs are behind enemy lines. Here are some ways to achieve balance:

A. Power Cost Adjustment

  • Hybrid Tier 1 cards could have slightly higher power costs (e.g., +10 or +20 power) to compensate for their versatility and to prevent them from being strictly better than base faction cards.
    • Pros: Ensures hybrid cards do not outclass pure faction cards, preserving the balance.
    • Cons: May discourage players from using these cards if the cost is perceived as too high.

B. Limitations on Hybrid Card Synergy

  • Restrict certain powerful synergies that could arise from combining hybrid cards with base cards. A hybrid card might have reduced effectiveness when used in conjunction with base cards. For example, an additional passive ability that makes Tier 1 hybrid cards deal less damage while in certain range of base cards.
    • Pros: Maintains balance without overly nerfing the hybrid cards and builds a preference of having hybrid faction.
    • Cons: Adds complexity to deck-building and may be frustrating for players who want to explore all combinations.
      • Note: This could be circumvented by possessing a Tier 1 Spell card corresponding to each hybrid faction, that could temporarily nullify this penalty.

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Conclusion
While making these cards work may result in extra effort on the development side of the issue, the return would expand the game in even greater ways. By addressing the technical challenges, balancing concerns, and maintaining factional identity, Tier 1 hybrid cards could very feasibly be implemented into the game. 

  • Increased Strategic Diversity: Hybrid cards create new early-game strategies and openings, allowing players to explore novel combinations and tactics that were not previously possible. This diversifies gameplay, particularly in PvP, where the introduction of Tier 1 hybrid cards would lead to a more dynamic and less predictable meta.
  • Enhanced Faction Identity: By allowing the use of hybrid cards from the very start of the match, each faction can receive more attention, deepening their identities and enriching the game's lore. This adds flavor and context to each faction's playstyle, making the game more engaging and immersive.
  • Expanded Deck-Building Options: Tier 1 hybrid cards provide more flexibility in deck-building, enabling players to create fully factional decks from the start without needing to rely on base factions. This opens up new possibilities for deck construction, catering to both experienced players seeking variety and newcomers wanting straightforward factional cohesion.
  • Utilization of Underused Units: By introducing new Tier 1 cards, especially for factions with less-utilized units at higher tiers, developers can give new life to cards that are currently overshadowed or redundant. This makes a wider array of cards viable in both PvE and PvP contexts, offering players more meaningful choices.
  • Potential for Future Expansions: Successfully implementing Tier 1 hybrids could serve as a foundation for further expansions, such as new hybrid units at higher tiers or unique faction mechanics. This would support continued growth and interest in the game, providing ongoing content for the player base.
  • Improved PvE and PvP: Thoughtfully designed hybrid cards could offer new tools and counterplays in PvE scenarios and PvP matches, expanding the game further and enhancing the strategic options available to all players.

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All that said, my only real capability here is to suggest and convince the community and developers, specially the developers making this fantastic game work, that this is possible. Also this is not something to consider right now even if it is received favourably, but more of a rather long term project to the pile of projects being worked on.

Anyway, thank you for reading this text wall of mine!

Edited by Delendar
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People have offered a few different suggestions for how to achieve this over the years, as it really is a very commonly reoccurring suggestion, and while it could probably be done in a way that bypasses the game's technical limits, I do not see what it adds to the game in a real sense. Yes, now you can play a specific hybrid faction from T1-T4, but the units we would introduce as part of this would need to be purposefully underpowered, and therefore no one would actually want to start with them. I think players significantly underestimate how fine-tuned of a machine T1 is in both PvP and PvE. This is the part of the game where we take the most care in making any changes, because nearly every card is theoretically usable in all game modes.

Consider then what adding a T1 Bandit unit to the game would actually mean. It would need to be balanced in both T1 Fire and T1 Shadow, simultaneously, in every game mode. This is just not realistic. It is more likely it would be balanced in one but not the other, overpowered in one but not the other, overpowered in both, or most likely, underpowered in both because we do not want to destroy what we have spent 4 painstaking years fixing. There is also the fact of how many dev resources this would require. To make this something worthwhile, we are talking 2-3 new units for each hybrid faction, because we would not be moving almost any T2 units down to T1, which means 8-12 new artworks, FXs, and card designs. Is this really what the community wants us to focus our energy on? 

So I get the reason why people want this to happen and why it would be cool, but for pragmatic reasons it just never will. We are not going to upend our carefully constructed T1 balance or shift our focus to introducing T1 cards which ultimately the game does not need. We would rather continue to flesh out existing factions with new tools, continue building the Amii faction to the point where it is actually on-par with Lost Souls or Stonekin, and hopefully in the farther future introduce a new Fire/Frost faction.  

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20 hours ago, WindHunter said:

People have offered a few different suggestions for how to achieve this over the years, as it really is a very commonly reoccurring suggestion, and while it could probably be done in a way that bypasses the game's technical limits, I do not see what it adds to the game in a real sense. Yes, now you can play a specific hybrid faction from T1-T4, but the units we would introduce as part of this would need to be purposefully underpowered, and therefore no one would actually want to start with them. I think players significantly underestimate how fine-tuned of a machine T1 is in both PvP and PvE. This is the part of the game where we take the most care in making any changes, because nearly every card is theoretically usable in all game modes.

Consider then what adding a T1 Bandit unit to the game would actually mean. It would need to be balanced in both T1 Fire and T1 Shadow, simultaneously, in every game mode. This is just not realistic. It is more likely it would be balanced in one but not the other, overpowered in one but not the other, overpowered in both, or most likely, underpowered in both because we do not want to destroy what we have spent 4 painstaking years fixing. There is also the fact of how many dev resources this would require. To make this something worthwhile, we are talking 2-3 new units for each hybrid faction, because we would not be moving almost any T2 units down to T1, which means 8-12 new artworks, FXs, and card designs. Is this really what the community wants us to focus our energy on? 

So I get the reason why people want this to happen and why it would be cool, but for pragmatic reasons it just never will. We are not going to upend our carefully constructed T1 balance or shift our focus to introducing T1 cards which ultimately the game does not need. We would rather continue to flesh out existing factions with new tools, continue building the Amii faction to the point where it is actually on-par with Lost Souls or Stonekin, and hopefully in the farther future introduce a new Fire/Frost faction.  

That's fair.

Although I think there has been a misunderstanding somewhere. Of course everyone here, including me, undoubtedly wish to see the Amii faction in all its glory and making a ton of new untis would be nothing short of insane, that's why I mentioned it as one project to the pile and moving down the largely ignored/unused hybrid T2 to T1. Bandits and Twilight for example, got 12 T2 units and 14 T2 units respectively, while people don't use more than 3 or 4 at best. Also that is why I compared them to the AI, when you play campaign maps, what you fight at Tier 1 are units like banditos and twilight crossbowmen, so it should fit, kinda. 

In any case it seems to be final so I'll drop the defense of any argument about it. Thank you for the response!

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On 9/11/2024 at 4:34 AM, Delendar said:

A. Pre-Game Selection of Starting Orb (Probably the more simple option)

On 9/11/2024 at 4:34 AM, Delendar said:

B. Orb-Based Prioritization System (My personal preference)

Impossible right now, because we do not know how exactly the game chooses the color of first token, so without being able to change that logic the card would either be neutral (if the dual color token would not affect it), as it is right now, or the first primary color would be used in order: shadow, nature, frost, fire.

On 9/11/2024 at 4:34 AM, Delendar said:

C. Dynamic Orb Assignment via Card Affinity

Not possible for same reason as above, we do not control the selection logic, so we do not even know, if that logic know the card it is choosing for, because it might not have idea about the card, in which case there wouldn't even be a affinity to use.

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Another hypothetical option would also be to create cards that are in spirit, for example, Twilight but one version is a T1 Fire card with Nature affinity while the other is a T1 Nature card with a Fire Affinity. That duo is then officially called a "Twilight" card but effectively you can pick between a Fire or Nature variant.

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11 hours ago, Kubik said:

Impossible right now, because we do not know how exactly the game chooses the color of first token, so without being able to change that logic the card would either be neutral (if the dual color token would not affect it), as it is right now, or the first primary color would be used in order: shadow, nature, frost, fire.

Not possible for same reason as above, we do not control the selection logic, so we do not even know, if that logic know the card it is choosing for, because it might not have idea about the card, in which case there wouldn't even be a affinity to use.

Must be incredibly annoying to code without the base code.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I also prefer the hard work going towards new Amii (and fire frost?) cards , but I'd also love to see some low-dev-efford hybrid T1 cards. Why? From T2 onwards we have 9 possible colour-combinations to choose from, but T1 only has 4 why forces us to use the same things over and over again. 

Also this:

On 9/11/2024 at 4:34 AM, Delendar said:

Enhanced Faction Identity

 

Firstly the orb problem has to be tackled tho.

On 9/14/2024 at 6:40 AM, Kubik said:

Not possible for same reason as above, we do not control the selection logic

What about a different option for monument choosing: block the hybrid card from being playable until the first orb has its color. Would that be possible?

It would mean to at least include any card of the 4 original colours to play first, but that's not that big of a deal.

Or Cocofang's idea indeed

On 9/14/2024 at 5:01 PM, Cocofang said:

one version is a T1 Fire card with Nature affinity while the other is a T1 Nature card with a Fire Affinity

Which is probably easier to balance because it only has to be balanced in one of the 2 factions. But this means new cards and not reusing old ones.

But did you mean that this units would then be literally f.e. twilight or just be nature but have some synergy with twilight?

 

Delendar brought up some very good points how this could drastically change/improve the game which I'm all on board for:

On 9/11/2024 at 4:34 AM, Delendar said:

Increased Strategic Diversity

If f.e. Banditos would be T1 they should only benefit from other bandit units nearby, making them semi-bad if combined with solo-colours but good when a transition to T2 is planned. In rPvE you could start with an army of these and when going T2 they get even better for every other bandit unit you spawn making them as good as other T2 units again. This way they have a purpose unlike right now.

I want to build decks including cards that synergize with each other and not simply pick the strongest card for every slot just because the other options are weaker and have no compensation.

On 9/13/2024 at 6:50 AM, WindHunter said:

adding a T1 Bandit unit to the game would actually mean. It would need to be balanced in both T1 Fire and T1 Shadow, simultaneously,

Why tho? Why not make it kinda weak for both colours but strong if paired with other bandit cards only? 

Yeah that would ultimately need 2-3 cards for each faction but you could start small and switch like only Banditos to T1 who would be viable in PvE or switch another one to pair with them.

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4 hours ago, Xamos said:

What about a different option for monument choosing: block the hybrid card from being playable until the first orb has its color. Would that be possible?

Then you are back to 4 color options. And that is the case already, exactly same reason, why you can not play neutral cards.

4 hours ago, Xamos said:

one version is a T1 Fire card with Nature affinity while the other is a T1 Nature card with a Fire Affinity

Same thing you would still have 4 color options, the cards would not be twilight, but Fire, OR Nature.

4 hours ago, Xamos said:

If f.e. Banditos would be T1 they should only benefit from other bandit units nearby, making them semi-bad if combined with solo-colours but good when a transition to T2 is planned.

I did not check this, but I would assume they would not benefit from themself, if they would be single color.

4 hours ago, Xamos said:

Why tho? Why not make it kinda weak for both colours but strong if paired with other bandit cards only? 

I think it was kind of the point, that it would be hard to balance it so it is not too strong with single color, but still useful fr something. If it will be too weak you will always be better using stronger single color card. If it will be too strong you will always be better choosing that for both colors.

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On 9/14/2024 at 12:01 PM, Cocofang said:

Another hypothetical option would also be to create cards that are in spirit, for example, Twilight but one version is a T1 Fire card with Nature affinity while the other is a T1 Nature card with a Fire Affinity. That duo is then officially called a "Twilight" card but effectively you can pick between a Fire or Nature variant.

This could be a more workable idea.

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  • 3 weeks later...

1) Could instead there be a T1 blank orb cost unit? or structure? 
That would be a great idea for a faction too, like an ethereal faction.

2) Would making hybrid cards not playable as your 1st card fix the issue?
Like forcing the player to play a nature or fire card 1st?

3) I understand the current units are balanced for their 2 orb cost, but for example:

T1 Twilight: Infected human models with the start of the twilight infection.

T1 Bandits: Thieves (worse equipped bandits), like crossbowmen without shields or banditos without shields? maybe a truly scrap-like tower?

T1 Amii, Amii: Apprentice or acolytes, a lot less armoured and long staffs instead of spears or more basic equipment.

T1 Stonekin: Smaller more basic units, like little golems that throw parts of themselves for ranged, and slap for melee.

4) Additionally, more classes could use more T1 fliers. like map 1 ascension is locked behind nature-only decks is just bad game design (damn you EA).
This would give more options!

Edited by Potato_Hoarder
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But that would be neutral cards, not Twilight, Bandits, Amii, Stonekin, or Assemblers, because they would have no token requirement to define their color, and there already is one such card.

obrazek.png.d2c3f1188de0a731e476761cf4166f0d.png

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Multiple suggestions, I'll edit it.
And I don't think that's a real card we can use XD

56 minutes ago, Kubik said:

But that would be neutral cards, not Twilight, Bandits, Amii, Stonekin, or Assemblers, because they would have no token requirement to define their color, and there already is one such card.

obrazek.png.d2c3f1188de0a731e476761cf4166f0d.png

 

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1.) Already is the case with TestStrike
2.) Also already is the case with TestStrike
3.) I either did not understand, or is not related to the issue.
4.) Also does not seem related to me.

Anyone can go to test server and play with TestStrike.

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