Shadow Phoenix, still dominating PvE?

[Rankerz]

Hi all,

Just trying to catch up after more than a year being away, and I see a lot of changes have happened regarding PvE-dominating cards

The biggest ones I have noticed:

Nightguard mindcontrol rework

Breeding Grounds cost increase

Shrine of war orb change

Batariel damage buff nerf

Also changes regarding various Expert maps starting power and stuff like Convoy Walker timer

I was excited to see how this impacted the meta, and seems like one clear outliner is still dominating most of the maps: Shadow Phoenix

The AoE nuke damage while being unbound power is not something any T2 card or combo is even close in my eyes, regardless how many buffs other cards have received

Is there any plan to change this card in the future or is it fine and I'm being too narrow thinking here?

(I was searching for a topic on this forum about Phoenix but not much discussion I have found)

[Metagross31]

Difficult question.

I think Shadow Phoenix itself is not too strong, but in combination with other cards (Embalmer's, FoF, ...) it is super strong. In such cases it is difficult to find a good balance.

[WindHunter]

The question of nerfing Shadow Phoenix is a tricky one. The card is a definite outlier in my view but that does not mean we can simply nerf it. One reason we delayed touching Batariel for so long was because nerfing it would not have helped at the beginning. When we first started balancing, there were only a few high performing archetypes, some viable ones, and many many unviable ones. So while Batariel was a definite overperformer, there simply was not a wide enough roster of viable alternative strategies for the game's hardest content to fill the gap if we had nerfed it from the get-go. Instead of widening the meta, we would have narrowed it, forcing players engaging with the hardest of content, like rPvE 10, to use one of the few other available meta strategies. We decided to nerf Batariel only once we were confident that there was a sufficiently high amount of alternative deck archetypes available towards which players could turn, but which were being suppressed because Batariel was overshadowing them. This last part is key, we generally avoid nerfing cards simply because they are strong, perhaps even too strong. We prefer to only reduce their strength when said strategy is so strong that it is forcing other provably viable options out of the meta and warping the playerbase's conception of what is balanced.

In Shadow Phoenix's case, it is my opinion that the card is too strong, but that there are an insufficient amount of alternative strategies that less skilled players can use to tackle rPvE 10. One of the important aspects of Shadow Phoenix is that it is both easy to understand and to perform. It helps to act as a gateway for players who want to start approaching rPvE 10 but who might be afraid their own skill levels are insufficient, and it does this precisely because it is too strong while being easy to use. We therefore have a pragmatic reason for leaving Shadow Phoenix untouched, as removing it would likely gatekeep a portion of the playerbase out of rPvE 10.

Once we had expanded the early tier options in each faction, a hot topic on our balancing discord over the last year, I would be open to the idea of nerfing Shadow Phoenix. But even then, how ought it be nerfed? While Shadow Phoenix is an easy enough card to use, its design is rather complex. One of the reasons it is so strong is because it is a spell disguised as a unit. While spells normally have cooldowns to prevent them being cast repeatedly in short succession, Shadow Phoenix has charges. Summoning 4 Shadow Phoenixes and dropping them on a camp is analogous to being able to cast 4 Lava Fields on a camp simultaneously. An important distinction is that Shadow Phoenix is technically killable, but also capable of reviving. So what part do we nerf? If we touch the single-target damage (550), we make the card only usable in large groups and mostly just make the player wait for more power. We could increase the corpse requirement to make it more dependent on Embalmer's, and even potentially increase Embalmer's costs as well, but this does not touch the upfront damage at all, and the change mostly hurts less coordinated teams and players who might forget to activate Embalmer's. Another option would be to touch the revived Phoenix, maybe the revived version only does 50% damage, though too much and it disincentives revival at all in favor of more initial Phoenixes. Overall, adjusting the card will prove difficult, if we do ever decide the time is right to rebalance it.

[Cocofang]

I could see an Abyssal Warder-style Phoenix mechanic. Every revive makes the next Phoenix progressively smaller and weaker until it can't revive anymore.

[Kapo]

2 hours ago, Cocofang said:

I could see an Abyssal Warder-style Phoenix mechanic. Every revive makes the next Phoenix progressively smaller and weaker until it can't revive anymore.

Either that or the same with corpses - it stays the same, but it needs more and more corpses per successive revive. That's easier to play with, you still know X phoenixes always mean Y damage, but you get less and less sure if it comes back. 

Edited November 1, 2023 by Kapo

[Volin]

I don't even see phoenix that often anymore, in fact I rather see them very rarely these days.

Is it an actual problem we are speaking about, or a theoretical?

[Laertes]

for 10s phoenix is still ubiquitous, used in the main deck for teaching new players, right? 

Anyway, I think Windhunter has the right idea, there are so many units and strategies that are *worthless* for clearing the t3/t4 camp in 10s. I'd like to see some of those made useful before anything gets nerfed. I thought it was kinda telling and unfortunate that Kapo has to use nomad/mine/phoenix and infect/frenetic in his off meta series just to avoid potentially being a burden to his allies. 

[Bkingn]

Im more on the buff other strategies train. Phoenix can be strong and easy to use but its also a cheap start for beginners. For experts we could see some other strategies as well. I mean you can buff some units or spells which will help clearing T2/T3 camps. In my opinion it shouldnt be nerfed. Nerfing leads to less fun and less fun leads to less players