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McLongDickson

to fast to boring.. nerf rPVE!?

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first i love BF and sry for my bad english... but for me the biggest problem atm is you get to fast to easy all you want thats why pvp and normal pve is dead.

Rly i play this game a month? and have all what i want.. stonekin pure shadow twillight etc. pvp and pve fully upgrade... okay to be fair my loot luck on booster was good. Promo Mo for example.

But you must only play rPVE maps thats all. For me personally they can increase gold and lvl requirement extremly. 3 or 4 times more. Then boost the lvl exp and gold on normal pve maps. And boost it extreamly for pvp. Nerf rpve. An then maybe people play pvp and normal pve maps more. Above all pvp. It sucks you have a pvp deck but you cant rly use it because only the top 10 players are in ranked and waiting for noobs. thats why 2 of my friends stop playing this game. Fully ups their cards for pvp and then you wait 30 min in ranked to get a top player. And only playing rpve is for them to boring. especially if you dont need more gold.. I know its a beta but maybe they can take it as idea or something. I hope you guys understand what i mean... :D

Edited by McLongDickson

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I am really interested what others say to that :thinking:
Many think it is too slow, and many think it is too fast. :thinking:
Maybe you should add vote pool :thinking:

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I'd say McLongDickson is (basically) right.

There is an imbalance between the game modes. But because most players are frustrated when something gets nerv'd, I'd say you should strengthen the loot distribution of the campaign missions. If a player gets a guaranteed upgrade he doesn't have yet (out of the upgrades available on a specific map) then the appeal to play campaign missions would be higher. On the other hand, it might lead also to a ceased player base, just because you get your upgrades faster.

If you buff campaign on this way, then there should be a bug to PvP, too. But I do not play that, so no idea how to do so.

As a side note; the way BF is conceived it has an end! (Only random mission intercept this a bit) The campaign missions are (very) limited, so is the card pool, too. Probably a new Orb color could buffer this. :) I am playing roughly since 9 month and I have collected almost all cards...

Kilian Dermoth likes this

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lol :D story maps are most profitable in terms of gold right now (for some players), if you win expert map in ~3 minutes and get upgrades you already have that will be converted to gold you will be able to buy all other upgrades soon. it is just much more profitable than rPvE 9 :P 

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2 hours ago, Kubik said:

lol :D story maps are most profitable in terms of gold right now (for some players), if you win expert map in ~3 minutes and get upgrades you already have that will be converted to gold you will be able to buy all other upgrades soon. it is just much more profitable than rPvE 9 :P 

Yea i know. but "exploit" using make it even less fun than rPVE. And i think not many players use it. I think the most players want to have a normal campain or do not know of this kind of bugs.

I was playing bf 10 years ago and for me and my friends our checklist was:

1. Get the cards you need for advance/experts maps

2. finish advance maps a lot of time to get your ups

3. grind tokens

4. creates and ups PVE decks for expert maps

5. play expert maps a lot of time to get your ups

6. grind tokens

7. create a pvp deck with max ups

8. get a nice pvp rank

9. show your deck and pvp lvl noobs and pull them on rPVE and PVE maps.

10. Repeat 8 and 9

 

Now this game is:

1. play 30 mins rPVE for booster

2. play rPVE

3. up your cards

4. repeat 2 and 3

do not get me wrong im happy to play bf no matter what the devs do. I take what i get and this is a beta. But maybe the devs can change some things.

 

3 hours ago, Flrbb said:

I'd say McLongDickson is (basically) right.

There is an imbalance between the game modes. But because most players are frustrated when something gets nerv'd, I'd say you should strengthen the loot distribution of the campaign missions. If a player gets a guaranteed upgrade he doesn't have yet (out of the upgrades available on a specific map) then the appeal to play campaign missions would be higher. On the other hand, it might lead also to a ceased player base, just because you get your upgrades faster.

If you buff campaign on this way, then there should be a bug to PvP, too. But I do not play that, so no idea how to do so.

As a side note; the way BF is conceived it has an end! (Only random mission intercept this a bit) The campaign missions are (very) limited, so is the card pool, too. Probably a new Orb color could buffer this. :) I am playing roughly since 9 month and I have collected almost all cards...

New cards and maps would be nice but i dont know if it possible or allowed for the devs... :thinking:

Edited by McLongDickson

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oh I see we removed 3. and 6. from your old list :P but why you can not repeat 8. and 9. from your old list?

Why completing map objectives as fast as possible is exploit in your opinion?

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BadHarvest, TheGunsOfLyr, PassageToDarkness, TheInsaneGod, Convoy, TheDwarvenRiddle, TheSoultree, SlaveMaster, NightmareShard
can you list so called exploits on these maps? I just want to know what you count as "exploit"

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Soultree spamming could be seen as an exploit for instance since Amii Monument allows you to skip the last mission of clearing the enemies main base. 

I think regarding PvE we had good ideas from community and devs that could improve the game experience in the future:

-> A less repetitive quest & achievement system after the reset, which makes maps outside of Soultree and Guns of Lyr attractive for the players (there is a post in the forums where many ideas got collected). 

-> Adding good and proven community maps to the "official" mappool to ensure more variety and maybe even more difficult challenges compared to classic expert maps. 

-> Setting up a community based balancing team to improve countless of poorly designed cards, for a much more comfortable gameplay for every type of player (casual & competitive - PvE & PvP) with alot more variety in gameplay. 

 

For PvP there is the problem of a wide skill discrepancy between a low amount of people leading to unsatisfying games for both parties. I still think that the removal of multiaccounting/multiple characters decreased the gameplay experience by alot as there is a much higher level of "ranked anxiety", leading to less participation in ranked, a smaller variety in decks and excessive que dodging, which decreases the effeciency of matchmaking even further. 

Loriens likes this

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3 minutes ago, RadicalX said:

Soultree spamming could be seen as an exploit for instance since Amii Monument allows you to skip the last mission of clearing the enemies main base. 

bug that will be fixed :) 

3 minutes ago, RadicalX said:

-> A less repetitive quest & achievement system after the reset, which makes maps outside of Soultree and Guns of Lyr attractive for the players (there is a post in the forums where many ideas got collected). 

accepted, details being discussed in the team right now

4 minutes ago, RadicalX said:

-> Adding good and proven community maps to the "official" mappool to ensure more variety and maybe even more difficult challenges compared to classic expert maps. 

accepted - implementation status not started

6 minutes ago, RadicalX said:

-> Setting up a community based balancing team to improve countless of poorly designed cards, for a much more comfortable gameplay for every type of player (casual & competitive - PvE & PvP) with alot more variety in gameplay. 

there are forum posts for that, we know we can easily change some things, and the rest will be harder to implement

for the PvP unfortunately many people said they will not collect their PvP deck twice, so they will not play until release :( 

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3 hours ago, Kubik said:

oh I see we removed 3. and 6. from your old list :P but why you can not repeat 8. and 9. from your old list?

Why completing map objectives as fast as possible is exploit in your opinion?

no not the tokens. the reason why i must play pve maps. In old BF you must playing PVE maps or no ups. this was the only way . Expert maps was fun to master with friends again and again... now i make 1 round rPVE and can buy my up with gold in 10 min and half afk with tutorial deck. You get to easy the ups thats my personal problem.

I cant make pvp because no one play it. On a good day are there 10 people all of them top players... you must have rly luck to get somebody on your rank. And it makes not rly fun to wait hours and get everytime destroyed from the same player...

But the post from radicalx have sokme good ideas.. so why not.

 

1 hour ago, Kubik said:

BadHarvest, TheGunsOfLyr, PassageToDarkness, TheInsaneGod, Convoy, TheDwarvenRiddle, TheSoultree, SlaveMaster, NightmareShard
can you list so called exploits on these maps? I just want to know what you count as "exploit"

Well for me exploit using is a way the developers did not intend. For example to block the king of Giants with own buildings so he can get rogan kayle is for me a exploit. I mean i have no problems with that play how you want.. but for me its exploit using.

Edited by McLongDickson

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Some exploits (by far not complete):

Soultree: Amii Monument

Guns of Lyr: Using cultists to destroy the building that leads to the last wave

Sunbridge: Quick Gate Switching

Convoi: The Nightguard trick

Dwarven Riddle: Flying Units which can go to the other side

Different Maps: Blocking quest units (Jorne, Bandit Walker, ...)

General: Decomposing others units, Takeing others monuments, wells, and such

 

All are exploits. Its odd that people who use such exploits usually are those that complain that maps are to easy...

 

Back to topic: the main problem I think can be summed up in one word: repition.

To break it, you need (new) content or something that makes it feel less repititive. RPVE is one way, even if its basically always the same there is still variance, not so for campaign maps, they are always the same. Still despite the variance RPVE is the same, so that it gets boring after a while, too. Campaign maps in contrast are different, some even with unique ideas but they lack variance, because a campaign map stays always the same, no variance. One role does play the AI, because it is really stupid, basically it is: spawn this units after this time and run to this point, thats it. Everytime exactly the same way. Another way could be PVP, here you have variance because you dont know how the other person will act. Maybe its not the case on high ELO because people tend to play some known tactics after a while. But PVP has its own problems, for example the high entrance barrier.

Campaign maps, because of limited maps will always lead to repition. Especially because the AI isnt fixable, is it? Maybe it is possible to build community maps, that have some variance, like RPVE, dont know if that is even possible with the map editor. Otherwise you had to keep building more and more campaign maps to keep it entertaining. Btw. I am eagerly waiting to play the 2 12 player maps (which feal like 4 new campaign maps) again. At the end of the game at ea times i liked to play them most.

RPVE will depend on the personal gusto if its entertaining but after a while everyone will get bored, doing the same even if there is some variance. The thing is that this seems to be the main content of the game after finisihing the maps once. But people who doesnt enjoy RPVE can feel to be forced to play it because of 2 reasons. First most players are playing RPVE, it is more difficult to fill a campaign group than a RPVE group. Second you get something for playing RPVE and you exactly know before what it is. It isnt the most rewarding in average but it is still high rewarding and you know for sure what you will get.

But playing campaign maps is a bit of a gamble for the normal player (I dont car about speed runners and you shouldnt either, because they are only a small part and not representative for all players). Also it depends on the difficulty:

Standard: is easy, boring, less rewarding, almost a waste of time if you dont want to chill a bit in the game.

Expert: is to hard and time consuming for many players, especially if you dont have a good (or even specialized) deck yet and if you loose you gain nothing. And winning could give you still something bad, something less worth than rpve. Also seeing that someone else got something of worth while you got nothing of worth can lead to frustration, if you choose campaigns as main resource to boost your cards.

Advanced: Even increased problem with the rewards, because they are always less worth and I doubt that this is more rewarding than RPVE but it wil take usually a bigger effort.

So RPVE is still superior for farming for most people. Because they get for sure a good amount of gold and they can buy anything with that. You even can count the matches you need to get the upgrades you want.

I think from a psyhcological view getting a upgrade you dont have will promte campaign play more than it is now, because you will know the chances are good that you get the upgrade you want after some games, because it must drop somewhen, while when it is completely random it could happen that it even doesnt drop after 200x of play. This way campaigns would get more interest by people who like to farm their upgrades by doing campaigns than paying them by gold and it would decrease the amount of people who play campaigns because they are in average more rewarding, because you had to have all upgrades of a map first before you get gold, and not just you, all had in the group had to, to get more gold than you would get by playing RPVE. This would also slow down the gold supply for Speedrunners.

Another completely different aspect to break repitition is one of the game mechanics itself: the TCG part. A TCG should lead in people haveing diversity in decks but this somehow doesnt work for battleforge. I have nature as starter, so I put atleast windweavers and ensnaring roots in. Something else usually makes less sense. Yeah there are other ways to play nature as starter but they usually dont work as well as this combo. Or Fire as starter without Nomads (Green) or at least Mine? Frost as starter without Frost Mage? Ok good shadow can be played in many different (map specific) ways. Then i had to choose, spell based damage deck, tower / root based defense deck or unit based offensive deck? And based on this descion and the colors I have the deck should roughly be fixed if it should work. Its is finally the problem of balance among the cards that lead to this. For example: how often have you seen something else than church of negotian on bad harvest at position 3? Its really rare and if you try something else you get called out... This way the community even prohibits this kind of diversity.

Another problem in this context is that most of the cards that work a little bit different than usually and could lead to a bit diverse gameplay are often damn expensive so that you had to farm a week just for one card. I think many people begin to get bored before they can affort it to get other cards to play around.

Quote

For PvP there is the problem of a wide skill discrepancy between a low amount of people leading to unsatisfying games for both parties. I still think that the removal of multiaccounting/multiple characters decreased the gameplay experience by alot as there is a much higher level of "ranked anxiety", leading to less participation in ranked, a smaller variety in decks and excessive que dodging, which decreases the effeciency of matchmaking even further. 

That are two contratry points.

First you describe the skill discrepancy. But the second is that high elo players tend to stay with their working strategies. Both is bad. While you might think that multiaccounting could improve the second thing, and it might, it would also make the first point even worse.

Thats why I think that prohibiting multiaccounting is a really good thing. I didnt play much PVP since the release, just tried 2 or 3 times and got raped very quick by spitfire, juggernaut and co, while my deck level was very low and I had almost no rare cards. But in the past days I played a few PVP matches after I had almost any card almost fully upgraded and I somehow liked. But then I met from time to time a highranked multiaccounter that was matched with me, sometimes even manytimes in a row. And I began to think: "fuck that shit, I am doing something else"

So I can tell you for sure that mutliaccounting will lead to even less people getting into PVP, because it will lead to high elo players playing against low elo players, what shouldnt be satisfying as you described. But I dont see that big of a problem with people who have "ranked axiety". They are already in PVP and there is always something that is called "unranked", which would lead to the same thing as playing as low rank multiaccount with the exception that you arent necessary matched with low ranks who dont want to play against high elo players.

Chibiterasu likes this

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16 minutes ago, Kilian Dermoth said:

Another completely different aspect to break repitition is one of the game mechanics itself: the TCG part. A TCG should lead in people haveing diversity in decks but this somehow doesnt work for battleforge. I have nature as starter, so I put atleast windweavers and ensnaring roots in. Something else usually makes less sense. Yeah there are other ways to play nature as starter but they usually dont work as well as this combo. Or Fire as starter without Nomads (Green) or at least Mine? Frost as starter without Frost Mage? Ok good shadow can be played in many different (map specific) ways. Then i had to choose, spell based damage deck, tower / root based defense deck or unit based offensive deck? And based on this descion and the colors I have the deck should roughly be fixed if it should work. Its is finally the problem of balance among the cards that lead to this. For example: how often have you seen something else than church of negotian on bad harvest at position 3? Its really rare and if you try something else you get called out... This way the community even prohibits this kind of diversity.

Exactly was I was about to write. There are so many cards but most of them aren't played. Some cards are completely unknown for most people. For example do you know what cards like Bandit Sorceress does, lost converter or Fleshbender? Some cards are even completely broken like second chance or promise of life but nobody seems to care. That's exactly why balancing is also important in Pve. By nerfing some strong cards like amii-monument, enlightment or lost spiritship and maybe buffing some weak cards like the cards mentioned above you give people the option to play other cards and therefore make Pve more diverse and fun. And when you only nerf t4 or certain t3 cards you can be sure that PvP won't be effected by it anyways.

I like to play rPve and I can play it for hours without getting bored despite the fact that I hate grinding. Sometimes I even collect gold and I don't know what to spend it on. Not because I like the variety of rPve but because I like the variety of my decks. In my opinion many people destroy their own fun by playing one and the same deck over and over again and some of those decks aren't even build by themselfs (not that it's a bad thing especially as a beginner but as soon as you know how to play a deck, you should consider other cards that may fit better in your opinion). People play a boring deck and expect it to become fun through the map. I think it should be the other way around. Play a boring map and make it fun through your deck.

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Yeah I know the cards.

A few hours ago I tried to build a deck based around bandit sorceress ability. But it didnt really work...

Never used lost converter as far as I know. But I usually dont play lost souls at T2. I somehow dont like frost (except stonekins).

And to fleshbender, yeah I used it once for RPVE9 xD.

 

 

Maybe its possible in the futre to add new game modes. Because of thinking about TCGs, the modes where you build a deck out of random cards and play afterwards are kind of fun to me. They are always somehow different. I think they could also lower the entrance barrier to PVP because this way new players could have luck with cards and good players hava bad luck. So the first group would get a chance and the second group a challenge, this is what both groups want. Also loosing with a random deck is less frustating because you cant blame that the other just had alread all cards upgraded and you had no chance because of this, also you could think if loosing: "bah, just bad luck, next time I will be luckier and win some matches, instead of: no chance, lets leave".

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Lost converter gets kind of decent if you have a mate in rPvE who plays pure shadow —> use netherwarp(frost) to warp the whole base into converter range. 

Never found a use for fleshbender but Bandit Sorceress works fine on defensive PvE maps.

Would generally agree on the topic that this game is very cardcentric and much less about maps which i doubt will not change in the near or distant future.

Some of the most fun decks actually only work if you have a mate imo though. There is so much more possibilities that I sometimes find it actually insane how much you can do even at just t2.

 

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2 hours ago, Kilian Dermoth said:

Maybe it is possible to build community maps, that have some variance, like RPVE, dont know if that is even possible with the map editor.

I believe so, but not sure if there is UI for it.

Did you know some maps have also extra hard difficulty? :thinking: (not yet tested, no UI for it right now)

1 hour ago, Kilian Dermoth said:

Also loosing with a random deck is less frustating because you cant blame that the other just had alread all cards upgraded and you had no chance because of this, also you could think if loosing: "bah, just bad luck, next time I will be luckier and win some matches, instead of: no chance, lets leave".

really? I think it would be more frustrating, because "he get better cards" :( 
and random decks in Battleforge are just a bad idea.

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No, I hear about extra hard difficulty the first time. Would it be possible to add it in the UI of the game, so that those who want a challenge can try them?

To the frustation thing: yes and no. It might make someone rage more and maybe swear but I think its still less frustrating because its easier to get over it and just forget a loose. I have seen such modes in Elder Scrolls Legends and Hearthstone. I dont have any numbers but I think they are still well visited.

To random decks: they shouldnt be completely random, not like frostmage and mine in the same deck, that wouldnt work. But for example master archers instead of frost mage or even both instead of frost glyphe. There should be a system behind the random decks. First step would be to choose the orbs, that could be done completely randomly. Next only all cards are filtered by those, that can be played with the orb constellataion. After that you should get at least 1 unit by tier. The units should be one that can be played alone in a tier (like windweavers, magma hurler, shadow phoenix). Units like frost sorceress would make it necessary that you get another unit. Maybe a unit ranking should be involved. Then you should get some spells, not necessarly 1 per tier, but here should be also a ranking involved. If you have creeping paralysis, curse of oink should be very unlikely to be put in the deck, too. And so on. And a few slots, maybe 4-6 are completely randomly chosen among the playable cards.

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How about a second version of rPve? Currently the only thing you have to do in rPve is to attack the camps as fast as possible. So maybe some kind of defensive rPve. Everyone is positioned in the center of the map and enemys attack from every direction. After a few minutes of defending you can build t2, and so on. After defending for 20 minutes or so you win the game. I think it's not even that difficult to make this mode because you don't need to vary with different layouts of the map. It just needs one layout in 4 different styles (bandit, stonekin, twilight and ls) and the amount of attacking units have to be randomized dependent on the difficulty.

Would give the people a completely other way of playing rPve and at the same time some defensive cards would also find their use in it.

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The Plan to implement communitymaps is a good goal.

I still think you should not let promos drop in boosters but only let them be a loot for achivements like "win all Maps on expert" or price for tounaments. This would be a motivation if u have all normal cards. But at a point u ll have all promos too. And what then.

I feel its not so important if u need 1 month or 1 year to get all cards, but to create a motivation if u have all cards allready to still play.

Imo you should fokus on motivate people to create new content like communitymaps or challanges. And we need much more pvp players, only pvp and communitymaps are still fun to play after years.

Ask the community for ways to make the game still motivating even though you allready have all cards. Maybe they have ideas that are possible to implement.

 

Kind regards

 

 

 

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i find achivements like "destroy 50 bugs on the map the insane god", "finisch the Mo map in 15 mins" or "Kill Ravenheart 100 times" and then you get booster, gold or BFP that would be nice but i dont know the devs can do this because this game was not make for achivments.

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honestly, I skipped reading everything after Killian's long post.in that post he mentioned "taking others' orbs". which, indeed (and imho) is quite funny.

one aspect is, for me this is definitely part of the game. it is quite a wellcomned variation to the game - trying still to win. and in the end you have to act as a team.

another aspect: Bad Harvest. I guess only very, very few people know that not both orbs at the ship/waggon ( or whatever the thing which you have to defend is called) are meant for player 3. if starting position number 4 is empty, then on that place there is only one orb. at least during the reboot I did not see any player 4 taking a well/orb up there!

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Its one thing if its agreed to do so its another one if forced by others. I wonder what someone who does that might think, but it might still be retarded...

And this is everthing but teamplay...

Edited by Kilian Dermoth

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