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Finetuning Lost Souls on rPVE


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Just a thought after getting into playing again. 

During some rPVEs (difficulty 9) I've again came across my old ptsd - Lost Souls. Mainly the fights against guardians of the second Orb are sometimes just painful. Maybe I am completely wrong and correct me, but LS seems overly strong/overtuned in that part of the match. Extremely long ranges (Lost dancers) with knockback, L creatures (mana beasts), Ice shield spam, and more. You can be basically spawn killed, if the RNG just hits right (which seems to happen quite often).

Last match one of our teammates got basically smoked by 6 dancers and some other stuff, before having chance to even spawn proper army at his T1. 

I am well aware that something like this, even if accepted as a problem, is damn low on priority list, but I am just wondering, if LS are supposed to work like this, or something is amiss. Because all other factions seem just fine on difficulty 9, some even too weak. Late game, it's all good, when you have some breathing room. 

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56 minutes ago, Nemoo SK said:

Just a thought after getting into playing again. 

During some rPVEs (difficulty 9) I've again came across my old ptsd - Lost Souls. Mainly the fights against guardians of the second Orb are sometimes just painful. Maybe I am completely wrong and correct me, but LS seems overly strong/overtuned in that part of the match. Extremely long ranges (Lost dancers) with knockback, L creatures (mana beasts), Ice shield spam, and more. You can be basically spawn killed, if the RNG just hits right (which seems to happen quite often).

Last match one of our teammates got basically smoked by 6 dancers and some other stuff, before having chance to even spawn proper army at his T1. 

I am well aware that something like this, even if accepted as a problem, is damn low on priority list, but I am just wondering, if LS are supposed to work like this, or something is amiss. Because all other factions seem just fine on difficulty 9, some even too weak. Late game, it's all good, when you have some breathing room. 

I've seen this happen to players in my group and yesterday it happened to me.  The amount of mobs on the T2 orb was the equivalent to multiple camps.  Plus dancers x3 knocking back my S units.  Oh, and the shields.  Seems a little out of control.

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In my opinion Lost Souls in rPvE 9 are not overpowered at all, in fact they are the only enemies in rPvE 9 that are a challenge. All other factions are just way too easy to defeat considering rPvE 9 is the second hardest difficulty level. Level 9 shouldnt be so easy that basically any player with any deck can easily win.

In my opinion all factions in rPvE 9 should be at least as as difficult as hard Lost Souls maps even at the beginning(T2 andT3). If rPvE 9 becomes harder more people would play lvl 7 and 8 which are very underplayed especially lvl8.

Dealing with Lost Spellbreakers is actually pretty easy if you are using S units simply press "Hold Position" once the units get knocked back and Spellbreakers cant do any damage to your units anymore. The easiest way to deal with Spellbreakers and Manabeasts are Manawings since they are flying units they cant be attacked by those units.

 

 

Edited by Fimion
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42 minutes ago, Kubik said:

did you experience all 11 presets already?

Most likely not. Tbh getting LS seems pretty rare for me these days. Maybe only the spawn camps linger in my mind long enough, which is why I feel like it's common occurance. Will pay more attention in the coming days when I play. 

@Finison I guess you are kinda right. In the end, what I asked was, if Lost Souls arent overtuned compared to other faction. Which they seem like they are, as any other start I can easily do. So the question now stands, are they the baseline that rPVE 9 was/is supposed to be? I wouldnt neccesarily be against that, if the generator can be adjusted a bit, so you dont get spawn killed (if that's possible).

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The gap is already too big between the lvl9 and 10 maps.
Some lvl 8 is even hardest than 9.
It is not normal for a beginner or duo on 4 players  map to be able to win a lvl 9.
It would be better to make the lvl 9 more difficult than currently.

Edited by Kybaka
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24 minutes ago, Nemoo SK said:

if the generator can be adjusted a bit, so you dont get spawn killed (if that's possible).

You only get spawnkilled if you dont know how to deal with Spellbreakers.

Nature: either mana wings or windweavers + hold position

Shadow: Soulsplicer and then Forsaken + hold or Nox Trooper(works very well because he is a M counter) + motivate

Fire: Nomads(G) + good Mine placement

Frost is a bit weaker vs Spellbreakers but Master Archers + hold position or Frost Mages and Ice Guardians work too

Edited by Fimion
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with LS you have the disadvantage of a difficult/slow start, the camps for t2 and also t3 are comparatively difficult to the other presets (at least the common ones) For this from my sure but a huge advantage with LS is the mid/lategame. Where the bases are designed on the whole simple than the other presets, from my point of view, the one then cancels out the other. must say that I find the difficulty of LS ok. 

But must also clearly agree that the gap between lvl9 and lvl10 is really big, that there must be done something is my knowledge on the screen. 

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6 hours ago, Nemoo SK said:

smoked by 6 dancers

Five. Its max 3 from the camp and max 2 from the wave 

I would agree with Fimion in most points. Especially the T2 clear is not that hard if you train it a bit and can be done with any color with a 3 card standard setup if you know your enemies.

There is only two things that I personally think where LS is too strong.

1. Their shields never expire what I think is quite unfair

2. The disenchant from the dancers take away shields, some heals and other tools that are quite important for sustain like Unity what makes the mid and late game for some decks a bit unfair.

Usually nothing that stops you, but a big disadvantage for some decks that rely on fire or ice sustain tools.

2 Tips for the start:

If you get attacked right away ping immediately for help and spawn beside or behind your wells to let them tank a bit and to get out some units for a counterattack. And focus your fire then!

Even if you don't get attacked - spawn behind your well and take your time. Always expect a worse case scenario which is 2 Beasts, 3 Dancers and 2 Shielders. Better safe then sorry here!

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3 minutes ago, Volin said:

2. The disenchant from the dancers take away shields, some heals and other tools that are quite important for sustain like Unity what makes the mid and late game for some decks a bit unfair.

Yes this is true and its the reason i stopped using Ironclad, a card that i actually really like, first Spellbreakers remove Inc MOs anti debuff effect and shields and then Lost Dragons disable Ironclads ranged attack.

This can be countered by quickly freezing/oinking Spellbreakers but only if there are no Banestones.

Inc MOs anti debuff effect should protect units from getting disenchanted by Spellbreakers in my opinion.

 

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Everything on lvl 9 Lost Souls maps apart from Lost Dancer debuff is fine. Yes some Lost Souls maps can be pretty hard but the way i see it its a good thing. Most lvl 9 maps are so easy that you can beat them while being asleep. I think there should definitly be a difficulty level between 9 and 10. 

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After some more matches with decent "luck" for Lost Souls (around five or six occurances) I can only confirm my feeling, that they for sure hit differently, no pun intended. To be said, I think it's true they, for the most part, could represent the right challange a Difficulty 9 should have. Problem is, if LS are the correct metric for D9, then most other factions/presets/seeds/ whatever it is measured in, seem somewhere between a bit and quite underpowered. And from that fact stems (apparently not only) mine annoyance with them.

This difference seems noticeable enough. Even had a player disconnect from match just at the start, when we found out the enemy are LS. Rare occurance, but the bitching about LS enemies is general trend though. It becomes more apparent when you get an so called doublecamp (orb+well too close the the next enemy placement, which results in instant attack if you take the resources), which seems to happen more often, mainly thanks to the LS unit range. If you take your wells and orb and onslaught ensues, generally you will not be able to hold out without good help from your partner. And maybe even then you cannot. Comparing that to other factions, there I can generally survive much more often in the same situation. Ovious solution is NOT to take them, but when you are against couple of treefiends, vigils, or manabeasts (and lot of other stuff), possibilities seem very limited. 

There is obviously the big question of cards/decks and teamwork, but if seems you can plausibly take down most factions/presets on 9 with whole lot of different decks and starts, even some fun ones, but generally not LS, at least not without a difference in trouble received. Here, having the "correct" tools or allies matter just so much more for the Lost Souls. Maybe that's how it's supposed to be though. 

In the end, there is also a view I did not considered before and that is a fact, that most players might not be that well accustomed to fighting LS (me included). I am not sure how many campaign maps contain this enemy (believe it was the newest faction before BF closed), only Empire comes to mind, That may well be also an factor, which seemingly makes, or at least helps to make the LS the "ugly duckling" of rPVE. 

As for the actual numbers/abilities and what not of their units, or unit compositions, I lack the data to really make any actual statement or comparision. Most of this is just my own experience and gut feeling. In the end, it is not THAT important of an issue. Just a hunch I always get, when I see that damned faction. 

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And can you imagine, that every single rPvE map have less enemies that EA specified it to have? (Can not say intended to have, because I have no clue if they did not test it, or ignore the warnings, or was just incapable of specifying it correctly) and that included these with lost souls enemies.

The new Fireland preset, have same issue, but there it is mostly air defense buildings, so a bit better, than EA's results.

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4 hours ago, Kubik said:

And can you imagine, that every single rPvE map have less enemies that EA specified it to have? (Can not say intended to have, because I have no clue if they did not test it, or ignore the warnings, or was just incapable of specifying it correctly) and that included these with lost souls enemies.

The new Fireland preset, have same issue, but there it is mostly air defense buildings, so a bit better, than EA's results.

Well that's bonkers. Honestly, even more LS would make it a darn slugfest, but it is interesting information nonetheless. 

Is there an intention to correct these values in current rPVE?

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