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Kubik

Balance changes Balance changes to game

Balancing the game  

270 members have voted

  1. 1. Would you like us to do some balance changes before the release/wipe?

  2. 2. Where you prefere discusion about the proposed values to be



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10 minutes ago, DarcReaver said:

Making it 4 orbs is not for speedrunning but making it an options for players to play more creative decks.  Full color t4 + an additional 5th color for healing, CC or different support units etc.

You said yourself you don't need it for speed running, it only lowers the time for finishing certain maps, which makes the use of this card questionable anyways.

Or switching orbs to feature a larger variety of multi orb units throughout the game.

Right now you also can play T4+amii-momument - sometimes i am doing this also in rpve or pve maps to get some nice combinations. Therefore you dont need a 4th orb requirement. Also right now you can switch the amii-monument during the game.

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https://discord.gg/GZKKMqH I do not think the results will change significantly without any progress, so here is the link to discord server that will be related to balancing the game. I decided for discord (as first try) because of the advanteges mentioned, mainly rules enforcing.

I will try the discord now, and based on the results I may decide if move whole discussion to forum or not. Results will be posted on forum eiter way, before implemented, so even if you do not join the discord you will get chance to voice your oppinion. Results will always contains reasoning why the change was accepted, so you will be able to check also that.

Pritstift likes this

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On 7/24/2019 at 10:21 AM, RadicalX said:

PvP 

I think there is a crystal clear consenous, that PvP players want changes. But we need to be very cautious about who is in charge of those changes. I don't think being at the top of the ladder directly qualifies a person to work on healthy balancing ideas. I've seen very questionable balancing ideas from people, that are reasonably high in the ladder. Majority votes also lead to some terrible decisions by EA back then. Alot of things need to be discussed in order to find the correct cards that need to be changed and also find healthy changes. 

 

I think the forum is the best place to discuss changes to have an open discussion due to better visibility of older posts. 

Absolutely +1

 

PvP would be unplayable if you would take some opinions seriously.

There should be a circuit of players in front of the pvp & pve community who start discussion about card changes with real arguments and an objective overview without any kind of personal problems against some things.

Edited by xHighTech
Navarr likes this

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+1 for Radicals idea to put balancing discussions into the hands of only the most knowledgable/capable players. The general playerbase (including me) is not be trusted with overseeing pvp balancing changes

Edited by Yuah

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Edit: great, half my post is now in the spoiler area and I can't get it out. Some mod can move the text behind the videos out of the spoiler area pls? I can't edit it.

 

The more I think of the balancing discussions the more I think the problem is rooted relatively deep.

I want to split this post in 2 areas, part one is to introduce to a seasoned RTS game from Blizzard, which the older players should still know and is widely considered to be one of the best RTS of all times: Warcraft 3. (of course there is Starcraft, but I'm not that invested in the meta and didn't play it that much. Warcraft was one of my favorite games for years).
Part 2 is to compare it to Battleforge and see what's different and how that influences the perspective on balance.

Part 1

One thing warcraft is very known for is how the game has a huge skill gap (means you can play ith with 30 APM but if you want to unlock all unit's performance you'll need at least 120 APM or more. Top players used to maintain up to 300 Actions per Minute during fights). Another thing Warcraft is known for is its strategic depth. You have multiple different types of early strategies, even in high level play and a lot more transitions for lategame.

1) Human has multiple different hero choices along with different eco strategies - Archmage along with fast militia level 2/3 creep; Archmage fast expansion; Paladin/Mountain King aggressive start
2) Undead can use Dreadlord/Death Knight/Lich along with either fast Ghouls or fast Crypt Fiend strategies and play around that (1 is a melee unit centered aggression strat, the other is ranged unit/focus fire strat that relies on creeping leveling heroes up first)
3) Orc can use Blademaster harassment strategies along with fast tech, early Grunt aggression, a Headhunter start (on larger maps) and a creeping, mass AoE strategy with Far Seer hero
4) Night elves can play mass huntresses, fast huntresses along with Keeper or Demon Hunter heroes, or Archers into Fasttech, or a neutral hero start

on top of that you have a few cheese strategies that can work or not, and offer high risk-high reward.

Since you probably have no idea what this means, here are some short clips:

 

1) Undead mirror match with Ghouls + Lich used against Deathknight + ghouls (2 different meta strategies in a mirror match!)

2) Nightelf mirror fast huntresses + Keeper vs. Archers + DK (also 2 different meta strategies)

3) Undead vs. Human with ghouls + Dreadlord (different hero first)

4) Nightelf vs. Undead along with nightelf starting undead neutral hero to prevent being nuked from Undead Hero abilities

Orc Mirror cheese with far Seer start + neutral hero towerrush against Blademaster

Human vs. Nightelf with Mountain king footy start

Even though it's likely you don't really get what's going on, you can clearly see that there are a multitude of different units used even in a mirror match, and even more so when players fight with different factions. I could post dozens of more matches where even other different strategies are used, and while the game has are a couple of cookie cutter strategies, most are counterable by non meta strategies.

In short: for each faction there are multiple different types of strategies in 1v1, and even more in 2v2+. These strategies can be adjusted "on the fly" during the match. You see something odd from your enemy, you can react to it by using a neutral hero, switching your tech to some other unit, or you can try to outsmart/outmicro your opponent and stick with your strategy. Overall this is satisfying, because you feel that you "earned your win" by doing better strategical/tactical decisions instead of loosing to "some OP wombo combo".

 

This brings me to part 2, Battleforge.

In battleforge you plan your strategy beforehand - by creating your deck, and you will not be able to switch it during a match. This means you're forced to play your strategy, no matter who your enemy is. You decide how many t1 t2 t3 t4 units and spells you use, which colors at which point and so on. While this sounds intriguing on paper, it suffers from one large issue:

There are only a couple of really viable cards for each deck slot and color. And if you don't use these units you'll most likely end up being stomped.

This has one advantage:  it establishes stability in matchups, because you know what your opponent most likely will play - but it's REALLY unhealthy for the game's long term motivation.

DISCLAIMER: I know that you cannot have an absolute perfect "balance" for every color, every matchup and every card at every tier level, BUT there should be more variance within the viable decks, and a lot more cards should be useable than they are now. Reasons below:


1) it's repetitive, and becomes boring (unless you're good at it, because winning is fun)
2) the repetition rewards players who are grinders. The more often you play the same you get better at it. This also increases the gap between veterans and newer players, with newer player not being able to catch up at all
3) Because there is a lack of alternative strategies you don't feel rewarded for being creative with the units at your disposal, because you get stomped - this is the worst thing, because it teaches players "I don't have alternatives and I NEED to play this." and if I do not enjoy this particular strategy I will leave the game ultimatively. And this is the worst thing that can happen
4) Because the meta cards are mandatory, they're usually overpriced and require grinding. In the worst case a player can think "I have to grind for cards I personally dislike to play matches that I get stomped in. Why should I invest my time into this? This sucks"

 

And another major issue is following:

In Warcraft you have cheese strategies (cheese means it's a strong strat but can be easily countered if you know how, for example by scouting the enemy). But those strategies are usually rushes and either end the game quickly for the cheese player, or the attacked player counters it and gains a large advantage to win.

In Battleforge, there is almost 0 cheese going on in t1, and even in t2 there is not that much cheese possible. But t3 suddenly becomes a cheese fest. There are quite a few lame cards with 0 counterplay or are not fun to play against, and this leads to major frustration.

Loosing to earlygame cheese strategies is frustrating aswell, but this only lasts a couple of minutes and afterwards you can do a fresh start with a new opponent. If a players has a 20 minute long, close game and then looses to some t3 cheese he will feel cheated from the game because he was very invested. Also t3 usually becomes a spam fest on who destroys power wells more efficiently. And cheese has the most potential to do that.

Of course someone can argue that players have options to counter game moves, especially if you have invested years in playing and know all possible micro tricks and have played against certain factions/cards dozens of times. But this doesn't help newer players at all. All they see is that they get "stomped by lame shit" and quit eventually.

This is why there NEED to be more viable cards in PVP. Currently I feel bad for executing the routine meta strategies against newer players because I know they will be frustrated for loosing just because I have executed the strategy more often than they did. This is the same reason why I don't enjoy playing against top players because they do the same with me.

There should be at least 3-4 possible strategies for each deck color in t1
- swift/non swift starts
- melee/ranged centered strats
- multiple core spells that can be exchanged for different outcomes and depending on your game plan
- options for high risk/high reward strategies for all factions
- nerfs to cookie cutter strategies/units that outshine all others

While this sounds a lot, it doesn't really take that much effort. All that needs to be done is to increase some cards power per HP/dmg ratio and they will be at least viable.

Whenever I played long games in Battleforge in the past there were quite a few games where I felt the win for the enemy side was unjustified because of card XY being used. Also when I played said XY card I didn't really feel rewarded for winning, because I knew it was lame. That's why I kept switching colors throughout the time I played the game. Some other of my mates also left the game because of that. One was Apoll, a first hour pure frost player, and the other UchihaSasuke, who played pure Nature. He switched to PVE after the mixed color factions were released and eventually quit the game. Maybe some of the beta-2011 era players remember these names. (A couple of card concepts that were introduced in renegade actually were based off their suggestions, i.e. Gravity Surge and Storm Singer suggested by UchihaSasuke who played Orc in Warcraft 3 - a Wolf Rider unit has an ability to snare units to the ground in that faction).

In short: for each faction there are multiple different types of strategies in 1v1, and even more in 2v2+. These strategies can be adjusted "on the fly" during the match. You see something odd from your enemy, you can react to it by using a neutral hero, switching your tech to some other unit, or you can try to outsmart/outmicro your opponent and stick with your strategy. Overall this is satisfying, because you feel that you "earned your win" by doing better strategical/tactical decisions instead of loosing to "some OP wombo combo".

 

This brings me to part 2, Battleforge.

In battleforge you plan your strategy beforehand - by creating your deck, and you will not be able to switch it during a match. This means you're forced to play your strategy, no matter who your enemy is. You decide how many t1 t2 t3 t4 units and spells you use, which colors at which point and so on. While this sounds intriguing on paper, it suffers from one large issue:

There are only a couple of really viable cards for each deck slot and color. And if you don't use these units you'll most likely end up being stomped. So while in theory you have at least half a dozen options, only 1 option can be used. That is because you need your deck to be able to counter as many possible unit combos as possible. And usually this is only possible by using the most slot efficient cards. If one card has multiple effects, for example counter M units, swift and siege, this is most of a time a more efficient slot pick for your deck than picking a seperate M counter unit and a siege unit, because you need 2 deck slots for this. Only under very specific circumstances this is worth it.

This has one advantage:  it establishes stability in matchups, because you know what your opponent most likely will play - but it's REALLY unhealthy for the game's long term motivation, because all you can do is repeat and repeat the strategy over and over again. This can be considered "balance", because these meta strategies are equally powerful, and so each player has the ability to compete with others. But the disadvantages are way more severe:


1) it's repetitive, and becomes boring (unless you're good at it, because winning is fun)
2) the repetition rewards players who are grinders. The more often you play the same you get better at it. This also increases the gap between veterans and newer players, with newer player not being able to catch up at all
3) Because there is a lack of alternative strategies you don't feel rewarded for being creative with the units at your disposal, because you get stomped - this is the worst thing, because it teaches players "I don't have alternatives and I NEED to play this." and if I do not enjoy this particular strategy I will leave the game ultimatively. And this is the worst thing that can happen. The upgrade system requiring players to grind upgrades and stacks further emphasizes this issue.
4) Because the meta cards are mandatory, they're usually overpriced and require grinding. In the worst case a player can think "I have to grind for cards I personally dislike to play matches that I get stomped in. Why should I invest my time into this? This sucks"

And another major issue is following:

In Warcraft you have cheese strategies (cheese means it's a strong strat but can be easily countered if you know how, for example by scouting the enemy). But those strategies are usually rushes and either end the game quickly for the cheese player, or the attacked player counters it and gains a large advantage to win.

In Battleforge, there is almost 0 cheese going on in t1, and even in t2 there is not that much cheese possible (except for stonekin, which is a whole cheese faction by itself). But t3 suddenly becomes a cheese fest. There are quite a few lame cards with 0 counterplay or are not fun to play against, and this leads to major frustration.

Loosing to earlygame cheese strategies is frustrating aswell, but this only lasts a couple of minutes and afterwards you can do a fresh start with a new opponent. If a players has a 20 minute long, close game and then looses to some t3 cheese he will feel cheated from the game because he was very invested. Also t3 usually becomes a spam fest on who destroys power wells more efficiently. And cheese has the most potential to do that.

Of course someone can argue that players have options to counter game moves, especially if you have invested years in playing and know all possible micro tricks and have played against certain factions/cards dozens of times. But this doesn't help newer players at all. All they see is that they get "stomped by lame shit" and quit eventually.

This is why there NEED to be more viable cards in PVP. Currently I feel bad for executing the routine meta strategies against newer players because I know they will be frustrated for loosing just because I have executed the strategy more often than they did. This is the same reason why I don't enjoy playing against top players because they do the same with me.

There should be at least 3-4 possible strategies for each deck color in t1
- swift/non swift starts
- melee/ranged centered strats
- multiple core spells that can be exchanged for different outcomes and depending on your game plan
- options for high risk/high reward strategies for all factions
- nerfs to cookie cutter strategies/units that outshine all others. I even think it should be considered to make certain splashable cards pure to remove them from mixed color decks

While this sounds a lot, it doesn't really take that much effort. Increasing some cards power per HP/dmg ratio to make them viable while nerfing some others to bring them in line will establish a much larger variety already. Of course there are cards that will never be competitive, simply because their use is so niche, but they can be ignored, as long as halfway useful designed cards can be included in pvp decks.

Whenever I played long games in Battleforge in the past there were quite a few games where I felt the win for the enemy side was unjustified because of card XY being used. Also when I played said XY card I didn't really feel rewarded for winning, because I knew it was lame. That's why I kept switching colors throughout the time I played the game. Some other of my mates also left the game because of that. One was Apoll, a first hour pure frost player, and the other UchihaSasuke, who played pure Nature. He switched to PVE after the mixed color factions were released and eventually quit the game. Maybe some of the beta-2011 era players remember these names.

tl;dr : The amount of viable t1 cards needs to be increased for the sake of variety in pvp deck creation.

 

Edited by DarcReaver

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