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Eirias

Controversial PvP Opinions

43 posts in this topic

Inspired by @RadicalX, here's  thread to put your controversial PvP opinions, and we can rant and go off-topic as much as possible. Example subjects might include things like "why deathglider is the most underestimated unit in the game," "why Pure Fire doesn't lose the Pure Frost matchup," "why fire stalker needs a nerf," etc. This is supposed to be serious though, so make sure to justify your statements.

 

@RadicalX Let's give you some room to explain some statements you've made elsewhere:

1. Why are thugs unnecessary in a fire t1?

2. Why are defenders underrated?

3. Why does stonekin need to take aggressors?

 

And everyone else: these are some example topics of controversial opinions. They may not even have to be super controversial--just something that the majority of players have a different opinion of than you (even if all the top players think the same thing, it's still "controversial" if 60% of the rest of the rest of the PvP playerbase doesn't agree/never thought about it). This is a place to learn!

 

I'll start with an opinion of my own: Mauler MAY be a better use of a deckslot than firesworn, in a fire-nature deck (esp in 2v2, depending on your partner). I'm not necessarily saying that statement is true, but at least it's more correct than a lot of people would think. There's only one L unit in t1, and you have lots of ways to kill it without using firesworn. Shadow does it all the time, and in the worst-case scenario, you can counter one sundy with another, but also, no one ever uses a sunderer against fire unless someone messed up, because everyone is afraid of the firesworn. So unless your opponent knows you don't have firesworn, you probably don't actually need him. In t2, you have access to mauler. If you're staying t1 vs t2, this is the biggest problem with not having firesworn, but I've usually been fine. Body blocking, scavie bites, and mortars are usually plenty.

In t2, mauler is useful because it helps against some bad matchups (aka stonekin). Stonekin and Pure frost have a lot of ranged units, and sometmes they might get a squad of defenders to sit and pick away at your well. 1 for 1, mauler beats defenders. Mauler also helps in t3, because it really shuts down ashbone pyros (esp with root). 

In 2v2, you and your partner usually have enough dps to be able to handle a sundy, especially if you're careful (or have a lightblade). In 2v2s, spamming ashbone pyros everywhere is a pretty common tactic, and being able to counterspam maulers wins a lot of games underneath ultra-high ELO, because most players can't micro 5 spots at once. They sit out 5 ashbones and expect one will work, but if you set out 5 maulers, the other opponent usually won't even know how hard he was shut down before it's too late.

Most importantly, mauler beats mountaineer, which IMO is the hardest card for fire-nature to deal with. And I'm not necessarily saying that I believe mauler is better than firesworn, I'm just saying it's not as obvious that firesworn is better as most people believe.

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Posted (edited)

1. Why are thugs unnecessary in a fire t1?

Cause they add nothing against Nature and Frost T1, against Fire they doesnt make the big difference.

Only in terms of Fire T1 vs. Shadow T1 they can shift one of the balanced matchups in favor of fire. 

For me still a card i always want to add.

 

2. Why are defenders underrated?

Never underestimate the power of a annoying hard to kill unit.

There are still better options in my opinion to use, and they need some supporting power to make them work. Heals or Shields.

 

3. Why does stonekin need to take aggressors?

I often use Aggressors in my Stonekin still a nice to have card in fights with alot of Energy, and in Decks where i dont use T3 it can be good to handle this nasty Ashbones, Tremors and other L-Stuff while i going aggressive on the enemy base. To bad there arent alot flying units where the Aggressor can profit so Mauler do often the same if not better job, but i like to have both for a bit more Controll.

 

Now my Questions (Where i already know some reasons against them, but i want to start the discuss ;) ). 

Why no one else played embalmers+phoenix combo?

Once the Embalmer is active the phoenix almost always revive, and if not enough corpse are there 1 own sacrifieced Nightcrawler is enough to do the job. In 2vs2 i can build endless phoenix spams and wreck Clusters single-handed. While i just have to care of Aura and CCs where you can often just split up a bit or in case of CC summon a dazed phoenix in the background.

 

Why no one play Canon Tower (alone or in combination with Aoc) in Shadow/Frost?

Had a game against DeChris were i played Pure Nature and are able to gain a advantage in t1 cause i can wreck 2 or 3 wells of him, but i was unable to end the game. In T2 he goes aggresiv at my base with Canon Towers and Aoc and there was nothing i can do to destroy them, so he was able to beat me.

I think also in enemy Aocs Canon Tower can be a solid pick.

Edited by ImperatorSK

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Posted (edited)

I don't know exactly how this thread is supposed to work, i just wanted to say that i think coredredge (red) is really awesome. And yeah, defenders are strong and pure frost has the deckslots for them, also shields. @ImperatorSK I think players don't play cannon tower that much because it's quite situational and could be called lame. While embalmers is the opposte of lame and i think with good timing and experience you can get serious advantages. In lost souls it's not even that risky, in case you mess up (spend embalmer power without getting phoenixes back) you still have your defensive capabilities to rely on.

Edited by SunWu II.
edit: just saw it's thesikaleon's birthday, so for today cannon towers aren't lame at all, they're awesome!

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i actually planned on making some yt videos about some of my "controversial/unpopular" opinions about ceratain cards/combos or the general state of balance. maybe i should get my ass up and just do it...

 @topic:

- defenders are a bit underrated, they are quite a strong card. i agree on this one.

- thugs are not required in t1, but i think anyone with a micro not at the level of top players should have them since they help quite a bit vs. shadow t1 in some situations.

- i think you can do fine without aggressor if you have defenders. i can see your point about t2 vs t3, however they don't exactly help against some cards stonekin struggles with; most notably giantslayers. aggressor is a "nice to have", but not required.

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Posted (edited)

8 hours ago, Eirias said:

I'll start with an opinion of my own: Mauler MAY be a better use of a deckslot than firesworn, in a fire-nature deck (esp in 2v2, depending on your partner). I'm not necessarily saying that statement is true, but at least it's more correct than a lot of people would think. There's only one L unit in t1, and you have lots of ways to kill it without using firesworn. Shadow does it all the time, and in the worst-case scenario, you can counter one sundy with another, but also, no one ever uses a sunderer against fire unless someone messed up, because everyone is afraid of the firesworn. So unless your opponent knows you don't have firesworn, you probably don't actually need him. In t2, you have access to mauler. If you're staying t1 vs t2, this is the biggest problem with not having firesworn, but I've usually been fine. Body blocking, scavie bites, and mortars are usually plenty.

In t2, mauler is useful because it helps against some bad matchups (aka stonekin). Stonekin and Pure frost have a lot of ranged units, and sometmes they might get a squad of defenders to sit and pick away at your well. 1 for 1, mauler beats defenders. Mauler also helps in t3, because it really shuts down ashbone pyros (esp with root). 

In 2v2, you and your partner usually have enough dps to be able to handle a sundy, especially if you're careful (or have a lightblade). In 2v2s, spamming ashbone pyros everywhere is a pretty common tactic, and being able to counterspam maulers wins a lot of games underneath ultra-high ELO, because most players can't micro 5 spots at once. They sit out 5 ashbones and expect one will work, but if you set out 5 maulers, the other opponent usually won't even know how hard he was shut down before it's too late.

Most importantly, mauler beats mountaineer, which IMO is the hardest card for fire-nature to deal with. And I'm not necessarily saying that I believe mauler is better than firesworn, I'm just saying it's not as obvious that firesworn is better as most people believe.

For me Mauler cant replace Firesworn, cause i dont play mortar (hate him) so i have a harder time against Nature and Frost t1, but still ok, cause there were not so many good Nature or Frost T1 player out there, and against Frost you can still Scavy Rush on alot of Maps. I also enjoy to stay t1, with Fire it is some kind of easier to punish early T2 of your opponent (even without Mortar), and Firesworn helped me alot against early T2.

 

I dont know my old Fire/Nature Deck anymore, but im sure i played Firesworn and Mauler. But i always struggle to find Deckslots for T3, i think my Fire/Nature T3 was only like 2 Cards.

Edited by ImperatorSK

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4 hours ago, SunWu II. said:

I don't know exactly how this thread is supposed to work, i just wanted to say that i think coredredge (red) is really awesome. And yeah, defenders are strong and pure frost has the deckslots for them, also shields. @ImperatorSK I think players don't play cannon tower that much because it's quite situational and could be called lame. While embalmers is the opposte of lame and i think with good timing and experience you can get serious advantages. In lost souls it's not even that risky, in case you mess up (spend embalmer power without getting phoenixes back) you still have your defensive capabilities to rely on.

Basically, we just discuss opinons :).

Either present your own and make a case, or discuss someone else's. Why do you think Core Dredge is worth using?

4 hours ago, LagOps said:

@topic:

In this thread, no such thing :kappa:

@ImperatorSK

I totally agree with you on embalmers (if it's as strong as you say). I'm going to have to try that out :)

Personally, I always hated cannon tower (esp with my normal fire nature deck). Why would shadow frost take cannon tower over the lost launcher thing though?

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43 minutes ago, Eirias said:

Why do you think Core Dredge is worth using?

Above all for it's swiftness and splashdamage. I used to play it in stonekin, so there are probably better options for this deckslot (i somehow managed to put 4 cards in T3), but man had i fun with it. If your oponent spawns counters you just hop on to the next base and if its a cluster it gets destroyed in no time thx to the siege and splashdamage. Only taking half damage while moving is also underrated in PvP imo. You almost always get away before it dies.

45 minutes ago, Eirias said:

 

 

Why would shadow frost take cannon tower over the lost launcher thing though?

I thought that's because of its high HP wich makes it almost impossible to get rid off.

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11 hours ago, Eirias said:

1. Why are thugs unnecessary in a fire t1?

As I already stated (and some people already gave an answer in this thread) Thugs are good in mid fights with alot of dazed units and also decent at choke points, but unless you play a very T1 realiant deck (aka pure Fire) it's not necessary to include them, because you can win every single matchup without them and use the deckslot to create a much more powerful and versitile T2 or T3. They don't really shift any matchup massively into Fire's favour and are useless against Frost & Nature T1. They are strong without any question, but great micro management can make them unnecessary. 

11 hours ago, Eirias said:

2. Why are defenders underrated?

Pretty much, because they have great synergy with the entire pure Frost deck, which is built around War Eagles. Your win condition with pure Frost most likely revolves around getting air control and Defenders offer great support due to their L damage, which makes them very strong against Skyfire Drakes (the low dps doesn't really matter in this case, because Skyfiredrake has a pretty low hp pool). By establishing a great basic defence Defenders also transition very well into offense, because they are very durable with an insane hp pool (A single Defender squad with Ice Shield in its defensive stance has more effective hp than a Juggernaut). By splitting your units against spells like Curse of Oink (which most likely gets used against War Eagles) there is no way left to deal with the Defenders. They will be able to threaten Skyfiredrakes consistently and also stay in a position to attack the enemies power well to prevent repairs during CC periods. Overall a great card which does alot of work for pure Frost

11 hours ago, Eirias said:

3. Why does stonekin need to take aggressors?

 Playing against pure Frost just doesn't end up well without aggressors. A strong Frost player will definitely abuse the low dps stonekin units by spamming War Eagles with Shield support, which allows him to overload protects or at least get valuable trades since the stonekin player is forced to play multiple spells (cc / building protects) to keep his power wells alive. Stormsinger & Spirithunters are definitely not strong enough to deal with War Eagles on their own. In addition to that Aggressors scale pretty well into the early T3 stage, which allows the stonekin player to extend his T2 without getting destroyed by strong T3 L units. Mauler would do the job against ground units, but Stonekin also needs an at least decent anti air unit. 

5 hours ago, LagOps said:

@RadicalX

-don't defenders work against wareagle? MaranV played them and i guess that's why he does not need the aggressor.

I'll answer this question here. While Defenders were useful to assist the Stonekin defence it's definitely not enough to keep the deck save from the pure Frost matchup, especially in late T2 stages. Defenders have one weakness, which is their low dps and that leaves them as an unreliable L counter. MaranV pretty much got away with this, because no strong pure Frost players were active in late 2013. Especially some pure Frost decks, that revolved around permashielding (Ice Age) would destroy the low dps stonekin defence. 

6 hours ago, ImperatorSK said:

Why no one else played embalmers+phoenix combo?

Once the Embalmer is active the phoenix almost always revive, and if not enough corpse are there 1 own sacrifieced Nightcrawler is enough to do the job. In 2vs2 i can build endless phoenix spams and wreck Clusters single-handed. While i just have to care of Aura and CCs where you can often just split up a bit or in case of CC summon a dazed phoenix in the background.

It was good for sure, but it just felt a little bit unreliable, because being able to set the combo up costs 180 power at the start (Embalmer + Ability + Phoenix) and alot of time. Playing the Embalmers Shrine too early would show your strategy way too early, because peole can just react properly and avoid taking well clusters and playing it late leaves you at a position, where it just empowers your late T2 which is not that great for most decks. Pure Shadow wants to get Harvester at that stage, Shadow Frost wants to be T3, Bandits is most likely dead, because it's Bandits (the combo would be viable here though ^^) and Shadow Nature can use it, but most likely wants to finish games in the early T2 stage, even though I would assume that Shadow Nature is still the best deck to make use of this combo. In 2v2 the efficency definitely gets higher though and makes the combo viable for sure!

6 hours ago, ImperatorSK said:

Why no one play Canon Tower (alone or in combination with Aoc) in Shadow/Frost?

Had a game against DeChris were i played Pure Nature and are able to gain a advantage in t1 cause i can wreck 2 or 3 wells of him, but i was unable to end the game. In T2 he goes aggresiv at my base with Canon Towers and Aoc and there was nothing i can do to destroy them, so he was able to beat me.

I think also in enemy Aocs Canon Tower can be a solid pick.

I don't know what happend exactly in the match, but an offensive Aura of Corruption + Cannon towers is just super expensive and if you were in the lead it should be an easy task to finish off Shadow Frost with pure Nature in T2, because this matchup is even favourable for nature if you are even in T2. I mean even a Burrower spam should do the job with a big advantage. Using Cannon Towers in the AoC of your opponent is definitely the more efficient and definitely a threat, but high ranked players usually were able to play around this and just didn't even use Aura of Corruption in most of their skirmishes. Honestly if Shadow Frost had a way to deal with cliffdancers Aura would not even useful in this deck, because the deck is more than solid enough to defend everything without it. 

1 hour ago, Eirias said:

Why do you think Core Dredge is worth using?

Highest dps double Frostsplash siege unit  with insane speed. A great addition in alot of Frost splash decks to create more pressure (which is usually needed in 2v2 matches). 

1 hour ago, Eirias said:

Why would shadow frost take cannon tower over the lost launcher thing though?

Lost Launcher is straight up better than cannon tower (higher dps for the same amount of power)

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2 hours ago, Eirias said:

@ImperatorSK

I totally agree with you on embalmers (if it's as strong as you say). I'm going to have to try that out :)

Personally, I always hated cannon tower (esp with my normal fire nature deck). Why would shadow frost take cannon tower over th

Hard to say it is a long time ago, to this time i even played on my Main Acc ImperatorSK (that was my pve Acc i rarely played this acc after i build up my smurf army for pvp :D) , maybe even before the Lost Soul edition was released. But after the Anti Tower/Lyrish Patch. 

And im not sure about this, but i think towers with more maximum life build up more hp per sec.

 

18 minutes ago, RadicalX said:

I don't know what happend exactly in the match, but an offensive Aura of Corruption + Cannon towers is just super expensive and if you were in the lead it should be an easy task to finish off Shadow Frost with pure Nature in T2, because this matchup is even favourable for nature if you are even in T2. I mean even a Burrower spam should do the job with a big advantage. Using Cannon Towers in the AoC of your opponent is definitely the more efficient and definitely a threat, but high ranked players usually were able to play around this and just didn't even use Aura of Corruption in most of their skirmishes. Honestly if Shadow Frost had a way to deal with cliffdancers Aura would not even useful in this deck, because the deck is more than solid enough to defend everything without it. 

It was a ultra chaotic game, he won the first little fight and i punish him for the greed of taking more wells, i managed to destroy the cluster of him (uro), he went t2 and i wasnt able to finish the game (i played a Pure Nature Deck without pure nature cards except Deep One and Parasite Swarm), it was a just 4 fun deck.  The game last very long and the energy level was already in a stage were i normally want to go in T3 so plenty of energy for both. I hurt my own units while his Cannon Towers cant be damaged through the aura (i tried it with Deep Ones cause more life, but they where still fast dead, i think the right decision would be to really spam units to reach the damage limit of the aura).

I was really pissed after that game cause i was sure i would win, and i feel a bit helpless against this strategy ^^, but later i copied the deck and played it myself in Sparrings, especially when i know that my opponents havent Eruption/Nasty Suprise, i was rarely called a lamer for playing Shadow Frost but this Strategy brought many to cry :D (played this only in sparrings so often not the strongest opponents).

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Posted (edited)

5 hours ago, RadicalX said:

It was good for sure, but it just felt a little bit unreliable, because being able to set the combo up costs 180 power at the start (Embalmer + Ability + Phoenix) and alot of time. Playing the Embalmers Shrine too early would show your strategy way too early, because peole can just react properly and avoid taking well clusters and playing it late leaves you at a position, where it just empowers your late T2 which is not that great for most decks. Pure Shadow wants to get Harvester at that stage, Shadow Frost wants to be T3, Bandits is most likely dead, because it's Bandits (the combo would be viable here though ^^) and Shadow Nature can use it, but most likely wants to finish games in the early T2 stage, even though I would assume that Shadow Nature is still the best deck to make use of this combo. In 2v2 the efficency definitely gets higher though and makes the combo viable for sure!

I totally agree with all things what @RadicalX said, maybe a little bit i would argue about the Thugs, but that's only because I mostly played shadow t1 and against me it was one of the cards that made the matchup at the least even for the fire because of the passive power-gain from the thugs...

But I wanted to say something about the Embalmer-Shadow Phoenix combo: it's one of the most important part of the speedruns in PvE, so it was used really a lot, and during the time I played the "ultra lame Embalmer - Soul Splicer - FoF combo" and even after that I tried the Shadow-Nature with the Soul Splicer and later with the Embalmer (these were without the 2 other buildings). And I only stopped using it because in 1v1 that single deckslot, what the Embalmer took was quite a burden, and also what was already mentioned, the strain in the bound power was too huge within normal circumstances.

And after these things I even kept the Shadow Phoenix, because that I believe is still a good tech-card, but the Embalmer needs too much time to set up, and to take in an 80 seconds cooldown (20 sec to build the embalmer + 60 sec initial cd) thing just for a situational unit is just an insane waste of a deckslot.

In 2v2 it was used every now and then, but that shifted out as well after a while.

 

 

And now my question: Why the Snapjaws almost never see play?

I know there were tries, and even I tried them, but I found them too expensive for the debuff they did, and also weren't a real t1 card, but much more a t2 (only eception is against the Sunderer on t1)... If it would have been 50 power though I believe one of the 2 types could be used in the t1-heavy shadow decks such as the shadow-nature - but still wouldn't see much play in my opinion.

Edited by tbpeti
accidentally didn't write anything, just quoted...

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16 hours ago, tbpeti said:

And now my question: Why the Snapjaws almost never see play?

I know there were tries, and even I tried them, but I found them too expensive for the debuff they did, and also weren't a real t1 card, but much more a t2 (only eception is against the Sunderer on t1)... If it would have been 50 power though I believe one of the 2 types could be used in the t1-heavy shadow decks such as the shadow-nature - but still wouldn't see much play in my opinion.

 

-They are expensive 

-Deal almost no damage (have no multiplier and im not sure if the 50% more dmg also count for them, cause from tests in the old days the dmg was pretty low)

-Are dazed a pretty good target for Eruption/Nasty

-Force you to focus 1 Unit with all your units (Dont see to much sense in the purple affinity to half the damage of units that cost all less in t1)

-Are S-Units so pretty useless against Nature/Frost T1 

-Take a slot  

-Scale better into the lategame, but also die fast to almost anything t2.

 

Maybe in Frost T1 with MA Spam they would be good, but in Shadow where you need to micro alot against Eruption/Nasty (clumping is no option and spams are hard to micro) want to make full use of your S/M Multipliers and your whole mechanic is about to sacrifice your Units (through Motivate/Nasty/Frenzy) they do not add much except for having a easier time against Sunderer if you have enough energy to make good use of the 50% more damage. I think Nox or Forsaken + Snapjaw (120 Energy) is not enough to take care of him.

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@tbpeti

I feel like snapjaws are not super useful until higher tiers. They're basically just used for the effect. Probably they're best paired with ensnaring roots or other cc, and like you were saying--if you don't have room for embalmer's shrine, do you really have room for snapsjaws?

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Lets talk about some Air Units (Player usually run no Air counters in T3). 

 

Swamp Drake (120 Energy)

-Hard to deal with (Survive Silverwind Nastys) even harder to deal with over cliffs

-Skyfire Drake cant deal with him

-Decent XL counter in combination with Roots.

-Build in CC

-Can be countered by Aura (but is mobile so it can dodge it)

 

Fallen Skyelf (Never played it myself in Pvp only in pve) (100 Energy)

-L-Counter

-Maybe usefull effect in combination with Nasty to counter high Hp targets

-Need 2 shadow orbs

 

Magma Spore (50 Energy)

- 720 dmg up to 1120 damage in a 15m radius so maybe against clusters good

-Ultra cheap

- i believe magmaspore was even faster than other air units (im not sure about this)

-Effect must be activatet 

-Low Hp but survive 2 Eruptions with 20 HP left

-M Unit so can be countered by Foraken/Sunstriders

 

And last but not least

Deathglider (60 Energy) 

On 14.3.2017 at 6:37 AM, Eirias said:

why deathglider is the most underestimated unit in the game

 

-Low damage

-Can be countered by each unit that can attack air

-S-Counter but cant be really considered as counter

-Basically a Mana Wing for T2 (ok to be fair Mana Wing does more dmg ;) )

-Have a little knockback against S-Units

-There are rumors someone managed to destroy a well with it ;D

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Posted (edited)

40 minutes ago, ImperatorSK said:

Lets talk about some Air Units (Player usually run no Air counters in T3). 

 

Swamp Drake (120 Energy)

-Hard to deal with (Survive Silverwind Nastys) even harder to deal with over cliffs

-Skyfire Drake cant deal with him

-Decent XL counter in combination with Roots.

-Build in CC

-Can be countered by Aura (but is mobile so it can dodge it)

I think this one and (atleast in the earlier times) Lost Vigil have seen some play.

Maybe i was not at high elo but i was above average i think and the swamp drake atleast for me was always annoying to play against

And the lost Vigil (purple affinity) was like a little t3 firedancer on some maps, hard to kill with a single unit as long as she got something to attack

Edited by rittindentod
Vigil

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, ImperatorSK said:

Lets talk about some Air Units (Player usually run no Air counters in T3). 

 

Swamp Drake (120 Energy)

-Hard to deal with (Survive Silverwind Nastys) even harder to deal with over cliffs

-Skyfire Drake cant deal with him

-Decent XL counter in combination with Roots.

-Build in CC

-Can be countered by Aura (but is mobile so it can dodge it)

 

Fallen Skyelf (Never played it myself in Pvp only in pve) (100 Energy)

-L-Counter

-Maybe usefull effect in combination with Nasty to counter high Hp targets

-Need 2 shadow orbs

 

Magma Spore (50 Energy)

- 720 dmg up to 1120 damage in a 15m radius so maybe against clusters good

-Ultra cheap

- i believe magmaspore was even faster than other air units (im not sure about this)

-Effect must be activatet 

-Low Hp but survive 2 Eruptions with 20 HP left

-M Unit so can be countered by Foraken/Sunstriders

 

And last but not least

Deathglider (60 Energy) 

 

-Low damage

-Can be countered by each unit that can attack air

-S-Counter but cant be really considered as counter

-Basically a Mana Wing for T2 (ok to be fair Mana Wing does more dmg ;) )

-Have a little knockback against S-Units

-There are rumors someone managed to destroy a well with it ;D

Shhhh.... :)

I quite like Swamp Drake, but it's slow. In t3, things usually move really fast unless you've got the map on lockdown. That's my only complaint. In my fire-nature deck, I always took giant slayer, and then I rotated the other two slots out a bunch. Magma spore, virtuoso, magma hurler, and swamp drake all had their time to shine. Two shots from the magma spore would kill most L units, and I think it took 3 to drop a well cluster? Like, basically the whole thing. I ended up switching away from magma spores because the micro was too tiresome, but I honestly think it's one of the stonger cards in t3, if used correctly.

I really want to see someone play magma spore + motivate in a bandits deck :kappa: 

Regarding fallen skyelf...I've seen people use it against me, but I can't say how effective it is (granted, I also carry anti-air, because I dislike being cheesed). Without anti-air, maybe it's good? Lost vigil was mostly the card I worried about. That thing is really strong, but again, I think most decks can just be fast enough to overwhelm that type of offense. But if someone's playing some kind of lame tower defense with lost souls like you mentioned earlier....

 

And Deathgliders are just plain OP :kappa: (for those of you confused: 

 

Edited by Eirias

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Posted (edited)

On 15.3.2017 at 9:10 PM, ImperatorSK said:

Fallen Skyelf (Never played it myself in Pvp only in pve) (100 Energy)

-L-Counter

-Maybe usefull effect in combination with Nasty to counter high Hp targets

-Need 2 shadow orbs

I found a old quote from Hirooo out of his stream to Fallen Skyelf.

"Fallen Skyelf is imba, Fallen Skyelf is so lame that i play it, especially because she makes nasty strong, and nasty is great" :D

Fallen Skyelf ability + Shadow Insect Nasty almost kill a Grigory. So with better Nasty targets, it should be able to clear alot of XL units.

 

To this time he also played Shadow Insect so my next question, is Shadow Insect worth a Slot?

- 100 Energy so pretty expensive.

- L Counter so pretty good for T3, M Unit

- Low stats compared to other units, but a good ability that shines if it is used against L-Units and also deal Aoe Damage in a 5 meter radius + knockback small units.

 

Discuss! :)

Edited by ImperatorSK

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4 hours ago, ImperatorSK said:

To this time he also played Shadow Insect so my next question, is Shadow Insect worth a Slot?

- 100 Energy so pretty expensive.

- L Counter so pretty good for T3, M Unit

- Low stats compared to other units, but a good ability that shines if it is used against L-Units and also deal Aoe Damage in a 5 meter radius + knockback small units.

 

Discuss! :)

Probably depends on the deck. I don't thinks shadow has great L counters (nor nature), so it might be useful in a shadow nature or pure shadow deck. I think it's crazy strong if micro'd well (they're basically like t3 burrowers) but gl to any but top players managing enough of them at a time.

I tried them in a couple of my "for fun" decks that didn't have fire, and I used them like a giant slayer replacement. Only problem is gs only need managing like every 8 seconds, so you can check on them in multiple places. Shadow insects need managing constantly, which makes using many of them very difficult, especially in the type of high-powered t3 that shadow often gets into (maybe not shadow nature, so that's probably the best deck for it).

Here's one: Why don't we see wintertide more? For instance, there are players who like to attack with DA spam, ice barrier, and homesoil. Why not add in wintertide?

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44 minutes ago, Eirias said:

Why don't we see wintertide more?

It's only good in a close well situation wich has to be avoided against frost anyway. In situations with longer distances frost gets intercepted (i'm only talking about fire and shadow T1 fights here, but that's 90% of the matches) and a wintertide is wasted power when the oponent can retreat completly. On the maps wich are feared by frost (Uro, generated maps with long distances) this card is no help. Maybe it can help against players that hide behind phasetowers but other than that i see no big advantage.

Also a big fan of shadow insect. It's inspiring me to get better with my micro so i can make full use of the ability one day.

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2 hours ago, SunWu II. said:

It's only good in a close well situation wich has to be avoided against frost anyway. In situations with longer distances frost gets intercepted (i'm only talking about fire and shadow T1 fights here, but that's 90% of the matches) and a wintertide is wasted power when the oponent can retreat completly. On the maps wich are feared by frost (Uro, generated maps with long distances) this card is no help. Maybe it can help against players that hide behind phasetowers but other than that i see no big advantage.

Also a big fan of shadow insect. It's inspiring me to get better with my micro so i can make full use of the ability one day.

I agree that it's not useful in t1 against good players. I mean in 2v2s where you can--for instance--play rallying banner+rageclaws, or maybe in combination with some other t1 when rushing, or when you're playing t2 shadow frost and you have darkelf asassins.

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8 hours ago, ImperatorSK said:

I found a old quote from Hirooo out of his stream to Fallen Skyelf.

"Fallen Skyelf is imba, Fallen Skyelf is so lame that i play it, especially because she makes nasty strong, and nasty is great" :D

Fallen Skyelf ability + Shadow Insect Nasty almost kill a Grigory. So with better Nasty targets, it should be able to clear alot of XL units.

 

To this time he also played Shadow Insect so my next question, is Shadow Insect worth a Slot?

- 100 Energy so pretty expensive.

- L Counter so pretty good for T3, M Unit

- Low stats compared to other units, but a good ability that shines if it is used against L-Units and also deal Aoe Damage in a 5 meter radius + knockback small units.

 

Discuss! :)

That hirooo quote though ...

The deck you are talking about is primarely built around Shadow Insect (which is required to make the card effective). The combined Abilities of Fallen Skyelf & Shadow Insect create enough burst damage to oneshot L units like Virtuosu and also motivated Shadow Insects can apply a good amount of pressure at multiple bases. You can play cards like Cultist Master to make sure enough corpses are around, so your Shadow Insect is capable of using its ability multiple times. Super fun to play and really rewards good micro (probably one of the hardest T3's to play). The biggest downside is just the fact, that abilities in Battleforge aren't very responsive and this makes the deck even harder to play, which was the biggest problem when the deck got played (and it sucks hard against a Timeless one T3).

 

4 hours ago, Eirias said:

Here's one: Why don't we see wintertide more? For instance, there are players who like to attack with DA spam, ice barrier, and homesoil. Why not add in wintertide?

Slighty underrated card for 2v2s, definetly worth a slot to support S units in T1 & T2 skirmishes with a proper deck combination. For 1v1's pretty bad, in T1 and T2 (Darkelf Assassins + Wintertide doesn't work very well, because it forces you to keep your units together, which still leaves you vulnerable to curse of oink. I would just prefer having another Darkelf Assassin squad and split my units in a circle around the enemies power well / monument. Investing a slot into wintertide in Shadow Frost is just a waste.

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

21 hours ago, Eirias said:

Here's one: Why don't we see wintertide more? For instance, there are players who like to attack with DA spam, ice barrier, and homesoil. Why not add in wintertide?

I played it on my Pure Frost Acc, it was rarely usefull. If your opponent spam Dreadchargers and they stupidly try to trample your MAs its a quite good spell, also suprising for enemys with Harvester in T2 in these cases Wintertide is good cause the burst against trampling is op. Against good players this spell was often useless. Cause they will just run away if you are far away from their wells.

so 

- 60 E is expensive for 30 % dmg reduce, so just with huge spams

- rarely usefull through trampling damage.

- Main problem should be the slot, cause you can add mostly overall usefull cards, and this one is more of a situational pick.

 

Maybe for 2vs2 usefull, i never tested this spell in 2vs2.

 

Next Question:

What do you think about this alternate T3 for Lost Souls :D

Dreadcharger,Forsaken,Nox-Trooper,Phase-Tower,Motivate,Nasty-Surprise,Aura-of-Corruption,Coldsnap,Nightcrawler,Darkelf-Assassins,Frost-Bite_shadow,Glacier-Shell,Kobold-Trick,Mountaineer,Stormsinger_nature,Sun-Reaver_fire,Bandit-Lancer_shadow,Sandstorm_fire,Lost-Grigori_shadow,Shield-Building

 

Just insert this into Allbfcards.

 

Sure the standard double frost T3 is better, not only if someone destroy your first or second orb.

But maybe in 2vs2 it seems to be a pretty strong T3, i never had a 5 Card T3 before ^^. 

-Sandstorm help against ultra defensiv T3s or the church bunk up. Cause your enemy cant play any cards or builduing supports, and also deal alot of dmg.

-Bandit-Lancer is a cheap good L-Counter with Lifesteal.

-Grigory and Shield Builduing are ultra defensiv picks.

-Sun Reaver as allround pick, it prelly fast scales up his dmg. So good Allround Counter, pretty good Well dmg. and a usefull ability.

 

Note: The Deck has no Life Weaving.

 

 

Edited by ImperatorSK

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58 minutes ago, ImperatorSK said:

I played it on my Pure Frost Acc, it was rarely usefull. If your opponent spam Dreadchargers and they stupidly try to trample your MAs its a quite good spell, also suprising for enemys with Harvester in T2 in these cases Wintertide is good cause the burst against trampling is op. Against good players this spell was often useless. Cause they will just run away if you are far away from their wells.

so 

- 60 E is expensive for 30 % dmg reduce, so just with huge spams

- rarely usefull through trampling damage.

- Main problem should be the slot, cause you can add mostly overall usefull cards, and this one is more of a situational pick.

 

Maybe for 2vs2 usefull, i never tested this spell in 2vs2.

 

Next Question:

What do you think about this alternate T3 for Lost Souls :D

Dreadcharger,Forsaken,Nox-Trooper,Phase-Tower,Motivate,Nasty-Surprise,Aura-of-Corruption,Coldsnap,Nightcrawler,Darkelf-Assassins,Frost-Bite_shadow,Glacier-Shell,Kobold-Trick,Mountaineer,Stormsinger_nature,Sun-Reaver_fire,Bandit-Lancer_shadow,Sandstorm_fire,Lost-Grigori_shadow,Shield-Building

 

Just insert this into Allbfcards.

 

Sure the standard double frost T3 is better, not only if someone destroy your first or second orb.

But maybe in 2vs2 it seems to be a pretty strong T3, i never had a 5 Card T3 before ^^. 

-Sandstorm help against ultra defensiv T3s or the church bunk up. Cause your enemy cant play any cards or builduing supports, and also deal alot of dmg.

-Bandit-Lancer is a cheap good L-Counter with Lifesteal.

-Grigory and Shield Builduing are ultra defensiv picks.

-Sun Reaver as allround pick, it prelly fast scales up his dmg. So good Allround Counter, pretty good Well dmg. and a usefull ability.

 

Note: The Deck has no Life Weaving.

 

 

Sun reaver is garbage. It's useless since the nerf, never use it again :( 

If Bandit lancer is meant as an L counter (i.e. defensive) why do you need more defensive options? I feel like ashbone might be better for that slot, or maybe silverwind lancers (so lancers run to each base and bomb them with sandstorm).

 

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Posted (edited)

18 minutes ago, Eirias said:

Sun reaver is garbage. It's useless since the nerf, never use it again :( 

If Bandit lancer is meant as an L counter (i.e. defensive) why do you need more defensive options? I feel like ashbone might be better for that slot, or maybe silverwind lancers (so lancers run to each base and bomb them with sandstorm).

 

Interesting tests. So Virtuoso would be better as overall pick cause he even have the L-Bounus. So Sun Reaver and Bandit Lancer can be removed. Highly protected Monuments shouldnt be a problem cause we have Sandstorm, so Virtuoso is great. To bad we cant run Giant Slayer cause of double Fire i also always prefer it in my Fire Decks ^^.

Ashbone is not that great without buffs, as mentioned above we run no Life Weaving.

My Lost Soul Decks never run Life Weaving only for T3 i dont want to spend that slot.

 

Edit: Also all other changes are welcome, my future Lost Soul Deck will be similar to this ^^, just with double frost T3 and Cursed Well.

For 2vs2 i choose this (just with Life Weaving if my mate played Sunderer or Harvester) or my most loved Embalmer+Phoenix Combo, i played in the past. 

 

Edited by ImperatorSK

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57 minutes ago, ImperatorSK said:

just with double frost T3 and Cursed Well.

Careful....you might lose rep with that statement :kappa:

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Posted (edited)

41 minutes ago, Eirias said:

Careful....you might lose rep with that statement :kappa:

I dont care about reps, i would beat the most people anyways in T1 so they will never see my T3. And the ones where i can come to t3, are usually not better with their t3s, i add Cursed well for ultra defensive people like MaranV, Freemka, or some other guys where i forgot the names that delay the games until the last minutes, annoying to play, so i can bleed them out. 

Edited by ImperatorSK

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