Sunbridge - Discussion Thread

[WindHunter]

Responsible members of the Skylords Reborn team recently met to discuss possible changes to campaign maps. What is outlined here are the proposed changes to the map Sunbridge. These changes are not final and are only proposed. As a warning, other map projects such as more RPvE presets and Defensive RPvE have a much higher priority for our team. As such, these, or any campaign map changes, may not happen for a very long time. 

Some changes here are firmer than others, all italicized proposals have accompanying explanations for why we are considering them, but they are the most tentative of all the proposals.

Proposed Changes:

1.   Make changes to the Switching Mechanic to not allow it to be swapped every 30 seconds and thus avoid any incoming waves.

2.   Fix the gate buckling interrupting attack waves

3.   In the first major attack wave, change the Twilight Dragon to an Abomination.

4.   Make the boss battle harder.

If you exploit the gate switch mechanic, Sunbridge is one of the easiest expert maps in the game. If you don’t, the map becomes one of the hardest maps in the game. One of the reasons so many players use the gate switch exploit is because they feel the map is unfair otherwise, and that is hardly surprising when you have to defend against a Twilight Dragon, one of the hardest standard enemies in the game, with your T2. We would like to end the exploit while simultaneously toning down the first major attack wave by replacing the Twilight Dragon with an Abomination. While still being very strong, an Abomination is a ground unit and susceptible to CC, meaning it should be substantially easier to defeat with only T2. Additionally, right now the attack waves are often more difficult than the actual boss, Mora. We would like to remedy that by increasing Mora’s encounter difficulty, potentially by allowing Twilight Dragons to spawn during the fight.

[Cocofang]

Spoiler

I think there are various signs that maps have issues with either being unintuitive or uniquely vulnerable.

One such sign is when commonly advised tactics consist of outlier cards as crutches to easily overcome hurdles. These influence the progression in a round so heavily that runs with or without them become incomparable.

Another sign can be that people avoid interacting with certain aspects of a map entirely and instead circumvent them.

When the argument is that expert should be hard, then it completely undermines that point when those maps are rather broken in two. An expert map with half the enemies missing/not spawning or lots of its content not being engaged with no longer has a claim on being expert difficulty.

However, as initially mentioned, when expert maps are unclear, sometimes on top of being hard, then the entire thing is running into major approachability issues. Which in turn make players feel like they have to employ some exploit or meta strat, which curbs the creative process.

A big factor is also how easy a tactic that trivializes a map is to execute as well as how widespread it is. High-execution strats that are generally unsuitable or unknown for the broader playerbase don’t warp a map on a major scale. Meanwhile, low-execution tactics degenerate to “cheese strats” and make the content feel lame and unappealing.

It also creates the issue that people come to rely on meta strats and exploits to the point where even thinking about alternatives becomes unappealing. The perceived power gap between the established default strat and whatever they might come up with seems so big that it feels futile to even attempt something else.

The oppressiveness of meta strats and exploits erodes maps in multiple ways, effectively leading to a much shallower experience.

So I want to first look at what issues a map has. Then why they might occur and what parts of the map are getting undermined. Afterwards spitball some ideas on how these issues could be addressed. And finally various elements that could be changed to make these maps more approachable from different angles. Can also be possible compensation nerfs to maps in response to fixes that make them harder.

Main Issue:
The instant gate-switch exploit undermines the maps difficulty completely, making it arguably easier than the standard-variant. It is low-execution and has a drastic effect.

At the same time letting the gates break prevents incoming waves from building up any significant power.

Context:
As noted, the main reason why the exploit is used so heavily is just the immense pressure the attacking waves build up. Including really powerful anti-player mechanics like card-blockers and Twilight Dragons.

Clicking the gate every 30 seconds is not an execution heavy, intense strategy that elevates gameplay. It's a chore.

Letting the gate break is what the player is supposed to avoid because the resulting downside is that both sides have to defend against incomes.

But handling the gates correctly and responsibly, i.e. in the way the game tells the player to and letting one side defend the waves while the other progresses, is in fact the LEAST rewarding strategy.

The game should never lie to the player so that it turns out not completing objectives as intended is more beneficial than doing so.

Fix:
Adjust the switch-timer so it can no longer be used to prevent waves from attacking.

If the gate breaks, the waves hitting both sides progressively increase in power as they normally would with gate switching.

Approachability:
As noted, replace at least one Twilight Dragon with an Abomination. Nobody will spontaneously fall into a boredom-coma and auto-win the map because the very first big wave doesn’t have a Twilight Dragon anymore.

Adjust the appearance of card-blockers. Not being able to use any abilities or play out new cards in an important area is an extraordinarily powerful effect against players. Pushing these back a bit would leave more opportunities to react to incoming waves.

Adjust income spawns so that the ideal time to switch the gate is around the time it starts to buckle and the in-game callout happens. This is the most natural and intuitive time for players to switch as the game explicitly states it and should be rewarded.

Adjust well placement on the east side. While west can take two wells in total safety the east has to clear big hurdles first, leaving it at an economical disadvantage.

Edited September 15, 2021 by Cocofang

[MephistoRoss]

I'm not sure if making the incoming attacks less hard is really needed. Many players think the incoming is too hard because they only use the gate exploit but forget it one time and then face the dragon. But they don't realize that by using the gate as soon as possible they also increased the attack size faster. So if you use the gate in the last few seconds every time it takes a lot longer before the attacks get harder and it is actually really doable. 

So my suggested solution would be to change the gate to a scripted switch at the interval of the current timer where it becomes impossible for a player to use the gate control themselves so they can't mess it up. Another solution could be to increase the cool down of the gate switch so that you can only use it like 60 seconds before the timer ends. 

I'm also not sure about adjusting the well placement. It is true that getting one well is harder on the east side, but this is compensated because there is a tower less at t3. By adjusting this both sides would become almost the same while it actually is nice that both sides currently are not fully identical which enables different strategies to be possible at different sides (for example take t3 orb before t2 orb on the east side). 

 

Here is a replay in which the gate is not abused and a replay where the gates were not used: 

 

Edited June 12, 2022 by MephistoRoss

[Metagross31]

1 hour ago, MephistoRoss said:

I'm not sure if making the incoming attacks less hard is really needed. Many players think the incoming is too hard because they only use the gate exploit but forget it one time and then face the dragon. But they don't realize that by using the gate as soon as possible they also increased the attack size faster. So if you use the gate in the last few seconds every time it takes a lot longer before the attacks get harder and it is actually really doable. 

So my suggested solution would be to change the gate to a scripted switch at the interval of the current timer where it becomes impossible for a player to use the gate control themselves so they can't mess it up. Another solution could be to increase the cool down of the gate switch so that you can only use it like 60 seconds before the timer ends. 

I'm also not sure about adjusting the well placement. It is true that getting one well is harder on the east side, but this is compensated because there is a tower less at t3. By adjusting this both sides would become almost the same while it actually is nice that both sides currently are not fully identical which enables different strategies to be possible at different sides (for example take t3 orb before t2 orb on the east side). 

 

Here is a replay in which the gate is not abused and a replay where the gates were not used: 

 

I think you got a valid point with the first paragraph. But I would disagree with the suggestion to remove the switch. Having the switch allows players to progress at their own speed an build fortifications before switching. If it would auto switch, this could add a lot of redundant waiting times because both players have to defend and noone has enough time to really make any progress.

[Majora]

Manually switching the gate also makes the player feel like they are interacting with the map, which is pretty unique. Its always cool to help out your friend by taking another wave early as well. I really like the play pattern of this map, and I think it would be a shame to make the switch automatic.

[MephistoRoss]

Good points, I agree that it would be nice to keep the gate switching. But it would probably be better if more emphasis could be made that switching the gate also makes the attacks harder each time.

[Cocofang]

Were there already tests as to how the map can be changed?

The gate-exploit still has an atrocious effect on how people approach this map. So many simply cannot play Expert without it because - unsurprisingly - they use it as the easiest way out and never bother to learn beyond that as the map is considered "solved" at that point. Still stands as a stellar example on how an overpowering mechanic can render whole slabs of content moot.

[This Is Halloween_2]

On 6/8/2024 at 2:34 AM, Cocofang said:

Were there already tests as to how the map can be changed?

The gate-exploit still has an atrocious effect on how people approach this map. So many simply cannot play Expert without it because - unsurprisingly - they use it as the easiest way out and never bother to learn beyond that as the map is considered "solved" at that point. Still stands as a stellar example on how an overpowering mechanic can render whole slabs of content moot.

I may have a simple solution to fix the issue of the gate-exploit : give to the players a limited amount of charges at the start of the game. Each time the switch is activated, 1 charge is used. When all charged are used up, players can no longer activate the switch (so the gate will expire 2 mn later).

Quote

Approachability:
As noted, replace at least one Twilight Dragon with an Abomination. Nobody will spontaneously fall into a boredom-coma and auto-win the map because the very first big wave doesn’t have a Twilight Dragon anymore.

Adjust the appearance of card-blockers. Not being able to use any abilities or play out new cards in an important area is an extraordinarily powerful effect against players. Pushing these back a bit would leave more opportunities to react to incoming waves.

Adjust income spawns so that the ideal time to switch the gate is around the time it starts to buckle and the in-game callout happens. This is the most natural and intuitive time for players to switch as the game explicitly states it and should be rewarded.

Adjust well placement on the east side. While west can take two wells in total safety the east has to clear big hurdles first, leaving it at an economical disadvantage.

As said by Cocofange, the natural time for players to use the switch is when the in-game callout start, so every 2 mn. We probably should be indulgent and let players use it a bit earlier without too much consequences (like every 1:30mn).

With 12 charges total it leaves 33:45mn (30mn +1:15mn at start + 2:30mn for gate to break) to players before they are punished. Realistically, that's 27:45mn if they do it every 2mn, 24:45mn if it's every 1:45mn, and 21:45mn if it's every 1:30mn.

However people abusing the mecanism could only do so for 9:45mn (6mn + 1:15mn +2:30mn), meaning they'd have to turbo speedrun the map or be punished for failing.

On average to cut the 1st waves from incoming, you need to activate the gate after 35s (in general people do it after 30s). For the second wave it's around 1:15mn. So with the change people could still cheese the second wave, but it means you need to finish destroy the amii bulding at 18:45mn while having had to deal with 1 wave each cycle, and because the waves has spawned, you'll have to tank it next time with the 1st new wave.

This solution probably doesn't solve the pb for the fastest speedrunners (which are in a way rewarded for their speedrun on one side, but I can see that becoming a pb with everyone trying to speedrun the map in the same way on the other side) who can clear the map before all charges are exhausted, and we might see people try to time the gate to cut the second wave. But for everyone one else it should do the trick.

It should also be an easy solution to implement, considering the game already has a similar system in convoy, where some line of codes could probably be borrowed.

Of course the text in the in-game obj box needs to be updated to indicate the charges to the player.

In counter part, I agree with Cocofang proposal above. If we apply my proposed changes (charges on the gate + Moira), we should replace that twilight dragon by an abomination, and remove those early card blockers (it's not that they're just strong, it's that they're also uninteractive and unfun to play against for most players. Not being able to play your cards in an RTS card game breaks a fundamental part of it and means people are frustrated when facing  them, and that is not what you want in a game).

 

And then there's also the wells on the east side.

Hope my proposal can help.

Edited September 10 by This Is Halloween_2

[Metagross31]

10 hours ago, This Is Halloween_2 said:

I may have a simple solution to fix the issue of the gate-exploit : give to the players a limited amount of charges at the start of the game. Each time the switch is activated, 1 charge is used. When all charged are used up, players can no longer activate the switch (so the gate will expire 2 mn later).

As said by Cocofange, the natural time for players to use the switch is when the in-game callout start, so every 2 mn. We probably should be indulgent and let players use it a bit earlier without too much consequences (like every 1:30mn).

With 12 charges total it leaves 33:45mn (30mn +1:15mn at start + 2:30mn for gate to break) to players before they are punished. Realistically, that's 27:45mn if they do it every 2mn, 24:45mn if it's every 1:45mn, and 21:45mn if it's every 1:30mn.

However people abusing the mecanism could only do so for 9:45mn (6mn + 1:15mn +2:30mn), meaning they'd have to turbo speedrun the map or be punished for failing.

On average to cut the 1st waves from incoming, you need to activate the gate after 35s (in general people do it after 30s). For the second wave it's around 1:15mn. So with the change people could still cheese the second wave, but it means you need to finish destroy the amii bulding at 18:45mn while having had to deal with 1 wave each cycle, and because the waves has spawned, you'll have to tank it next time with the 1st new wave.

This solution probably doesn't solve the pb for the fastest speedrunners (which are in a way rewarded for their speedrun on one side, but I can see that becoming a pb with everyone trying to speedrun the map in the same way on the other side) who can clear the map before all charges are exhausted, and we might see people try to time the gate to cut the second wave. But for everyone one else it should do the trick.

It should also be an easy solution to implement, considering the game already has a similar system in convoy, where some line of codes could probably be borrowed.

Of course the text in the in-game obj box needs to be updated to indicate the charges to the player.

In counter part, I agree with Cocofang proposal above. If we apply my proposed changes (charges on the gate + Moira), we should replace that twilight dragon by an abomination, and remove those early card blockers (it's not that they're just strong, it's that they're also uninteractive and unfun to play against for most players. Not being able to play your cards in an RTS card game breaks a fundamental part of it and means people are frustrated when facing  them, and that is not what you want in a game).

 

And then there's also the wells on the east side.

Hope my proposal can help.

I like the idea with the charges. Implementing that change should be easy, but we do not have Brannoc voicelines to explain that mechanic, which would be a bit of a downside.

But in the end, it is mostly a design decision, that the map team and game designers have to consider.

[This Is Halloween_2]

1 hour ago, Metagross31 said:

I like the idea with the charges. Implementing that change should be easy, but we do not have Brannoc voicelines to explain that mechanic, which would be a bit of a downside.

But in the end, it is mostly a design decision, that the map team and game designers have to consider.

Yes, but a line of text on the obj box with: "X/12 amii gate charge remaining. Use them well/wisely/xxxx" should do the trick. Furthermore when you reach like 6 or less charge, you can make the text yellow, and red when you're at 0 (and you can change the "Use them well" into "Prepare for xxxx" or any warning phrase).

By experience the text is not really visual in BF, I agree, but a X/12 in color tend to catch the eye in the game far more. In convoy for example, I always have a small unconscious peek a the number on the top right because the number is more catchy than the text, even if it's absolutely not volontary.

Edited September 10 by This Is Halloween_2