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NAME: The purple Bandit Lancer's ability does not give 15% damage amplification.
DESCRIPTION: The ability is supposed to give 15% damage amplification. Instead, it only gives a flat 15 damage bonus to any attack or ability, not a percentage.
REPRODUCIBILITY: It is always reproducible, for auto attacks or unit abilities. For example, a Nox Trooper will do 50 damage to a Mutating Frenzy, but with branding it will do 65 damage. A Magma Spore's ability will do 1080 damage against an Emberstrike, but with branding it will do 1095 damage.
This also means for archers, each shot does 15 more damage. Darkelf Assassins will do 72 damage per volley to an Emberstrike (12 dmg per archer), or 162 damage per volley with branding (27 damage per archer).
SCREENSHOT/VIDEO: None - easily reproducible in the Forge.
LOG: N/A
ADDITIONAL INFORMATION: Additionally, Bandit Lancer's ability also does not seem to work in giving a lot of ranged units the extra range, but that seems to depend on the projectile of the ranged unit (ex. Twilight Hag works and gets more range, but Ashbone Pyro does not). Not sure if that is something that can be fixed, unlike the damage amplify bug which seems like a value input mistake.
Kubik and me worked out a solution that was also applied with
The damage value now applies correctly and the overflow no longer gets multiplied by Tainted Enrage or Unholy Hero or the likes.
Damage was off only if overflow happened to buildings. Damage to Units done remains the same pre and post changes. That should only affect Units with the Stampede ability. like Mo, Bloodhorn, Juggernaut.
There is a longstanding bug in the calculation of AOE (area of effect) damage, affecting spells, unit abilities and unit attacks which have a max damage per target and max overall damage. Examples of affected spells are Eruption or Fire Sphere, abilities like Rifle Cultists' Dark Grenade or AOE attacks of units like Construct, Frost Mage or Deepcoil Worm.
TL;DR at the bottom!
How the bug works:
If an AOE damage effect kills a unit, only 50% of the overkill damage is transferred back to the pool of available damage which is to be distributed to other targets.
Let's take Fire Sphere (u3) as an example. The spell has a maximum single target damage of 6000 and a maximum total damage of 8000. As it stands, the spell will only ever do its full damage if its primary target (closest to the area of effect center) has at least 6000, and its second target has at least 2000 health.
If you use Fire Sphere on a group of weaker enemies, it's effectiveness will vastly diminish. Let's take for example a group of 8 Sunderers (u3), which have exactly 1000 HP each, for a total of 8000 HP. Fire Sphere will kill 3 of them, and damage a fourth Sunderer for 375 damage, leaving him with 625 HP. Total damage dealt: 3375. It would get even worse for lower health targets.
Why does it happen? Because of faulty calculation in the damage formula, which returns only 50% of overkill damage to the pool of remaining damage.
So what's the maths behind it?
Before: max single target damage = 6000, damage in pool = 8000
Target 1: health = 1000, damage dealt = 6000, overkill damage = 5000, damage returned to pool = 2500, remaining damage in pool = 4500
Target 2: health = 1000, damage dealt = 4500, overkill damage = 3500, damage returned to pool = 1750, remaining damage in pool = 1750
Target 3: health = 1000, damage dealt = 1750, overkill damage = 750, damage returned to pool = 375, remaining damage in pool = 375
Target 4: health = 1000, damage dealt = 375, health remaining = 625
Is it a bug, or is it a feature?
That's a non-trivial question. But so far, there is every indication that this is in fact a bug.
1. There is no indication whatsoever in the spell descriptions, especially the big AOE spells like Fire Sphere, that they massively lose effectiveness against groups of enemies, or that they deal only half damage to further targets.
2. Against a heterogenous group of enemies, the total damage dealt varies greatly, depending on which target was closest to the spell center, thus in which orders the targets are affected.
3. Logic dictates, that there is no reason for an explosion to lose effectiveness (as in: deal less overall damage) the more viable targets are affected.
4. Increasing "maximum single target damage" reduces the overall damage dealt by the spells, if they are used against groups of enemies, to a point where Lava Field sometimes deals more overall damage than Fire Sphere. How does that make sense?
What's the proposed bugfix/change?
To enable full overkill damage overflow. As in, if the single target damage is 6000, and the target has only 1000 health, let 5000 damage return to the remaining damage pool.
Using the example above again, that's 8 dead Sunderers for a total of 8000 damage and a happy, fulfilled Fire Sphere.
Can it be implemented easily?
We've been hard at work and testing with Kubik (who's effort and insight are massively appreciated!), and the relevant code already exists, ready to be implemented. It also is easily adjustable, should it turn out that another value, like a 75%, or 80% damage carryover on overkillis the sweet spot.
What will change if the bugfix is implemented?
Every AOE spell, ability and attack, which has a listed damage per target and maximum damage will be affected by this change. However, the degree to which it will have an impact, varies greatly from one case to another. For most cards, especially with low damage numbers, the increase will be negligible (not JUST because these are low numbers, but primarily because those spells/attacks have a low chance to kill a target with any given shot).
Generally, the bugfix is a direct buff to many cards and abilities. However, damage is only actually increased if 1. at least one of the targets is killed, 2. there are more viable targets in range than (total_damage / max_singletarget_damage) rounded up. Also, to be clear, damage is NEVER going to be increased for the primary target
Spells which are affected the most, are spells which have high enough numbers, that they are expected to reliably kill some, or most of their targets. The greater the single target maximum damage of the AOE damage source, and the greater single target maximum damage in relation to total maximum damage, the more any given spell/attack/ability is affected. Also, spells/attacks/abilities which have a larger AOE and the above characteristics, tend to be affected more (because more targets fit into the AOE).
My predictions concerning the impact on specific cards:
High impact: Fire Sphere, Rifle Cultists* (ability: Dark Grenade), Boom Brothers* (ability: Boom), Necro Fury* (ability: Bone Shards), Altar of Chaos (against really large groups), Worldbreaker Gun (attack and ability: Heavy Snowball, though the latter only against really large groups), Shatter Ice, Comet Catcher (against really large groups).
* - Unholy Hero increases the impact
Moderate impact: Construct (attack), Giant Wyrm (attack), Ironclad (attack), Wasteland Terror (attack), Abomination (ability: Blessed/Tainted Fury), Skycatcher (attack), Gemeye (attack), Volcano (attack), Artillery (attack), Hatecaster (attack), Deepgorge (attack), Thornbark (rooted attack), Treefiend (rooted attack), Lost Horror (attack), Soulshatter (>3 targets), Backlash (depending on void power, may be low impact), Corpse Explosion (>3 targets), Morklay Trap, Shadow Phoenix (>4 targets), Lost dancer (ability: Necro explosion, only with lots of targets in range), Nasty Surprise (>3 targets), Necroblaster (attack, and shadow affinity ability: Tainted Voodoo).
Low impact: Magma Hurler (attack), Sun Reaver (ability: Metal Spikes), Deepcoil Worm (attack), Twilight Bombard (attack), Lost Disruptor (attack, moderate impact against grouped very low health fliers), Shadow Mage, Eruption (>3 targets).
My predictions concerning the impact on PVP balance:
(I am not an active PVP player currently. I did play a decent amount in times of Battleforge, but I am in no way up to date, so take these predictions with a grain of salt).
Shadow will slightly gain in power, as the explosions have actually high enough damage numbers to reliably kill at least some of their targets, but except for Shadow Mage, it only ever becomes relevant when there are >3 targets in range of the spell/ability. The slight buff to Eruption shouldn't have an impact. Otherwise I expect nothing much to change. The vast majority of significantly affected cards are T4.
My predictions concerning the impact on PVE:
Enemies: Long range AOE attackers, like Bandit walkers and high tier defensive towers (e.g. artillery) will be more proficient at murdering grouped units.
Players: Stronger tools of destruction at player disposal. It should only really affect T4, and shadow at lower tiers (Shadow Phoenix in particular should be noticeably more effective against large groups, Necroblaster will get stronger, Corpse explosion and Soulshatter will also be noticeably more effective).
Final thoughts:
I was for a long time under the impression, that large AOE damage sources are somehow underperforming, without really understanding why. Fire Sphere! Enormous explosion! Which... kills 3-4 units out of a cluster of 15 units. Now that I found out why those spells underperform, I've taken the effort to try and fix it. That's the result. I consider it a bugfix, even though it is also a moderately impactful balance change. That's how Skylords Reborn, and earlier Battleforge, handled AOE damage. A bug that had largely become a feature. I propose we change it in a logical way. Maximum 8000 damage in the area? If the targets in range have as much overall health, the damage will be dealt in full.
Special thanks:
Kubik, for his unending patience and making the unreadable mess of code actually parsable for the human mind.
TL;DR:
High tier AOE spells and abilities promise big numbers. Against lots of small targets, numbers are much smaller, because overkill damage is halved (multiple times). The proposed change fixes stuff, so that big spells deal the promised damage. Fire Sphere -> big boom -> big damage -> lots of dead bandits. Vote big damage. Vote dead bandits!
Kubik and me worked out a solution that was also applied with
The damage value now applies correctly and the overflow no longer gets multiplied by Tainted Enrage or Unholy Hero or the likes.
Damage was off only if overflow happened to buildings. Damage to Units done remains the same pre and post changes. That should only affect Units with the Stampede ability. like Mo, Bloodhorn, Juggernaut.
This would explain exactly my observations:
BhB: Bloodhorn Buff, factor 2 = +100%
{[(9'900 *BhB - 5'000) *BhB - 5'000] *BhB - 33'333⅓} *BhB = 31733⅓ = 4760 /15 *100
4760 /15 *100 corresponds exactly to the last Comet Catcher with 240 HP remaining.
Thus, yes. Your assuption hits the nail on its head: the Bloodhorn buff gets applied to the overkill damage after damage calculation.
If this assumption is correct, you should be able to hit damage numbers which oneshot even the beffiest of entities with the right setup of course.
some interesting numbers:
game computes that first building is attacked with 9900 DMG which get boosted to 24800 DMG 😮 (total damage done is 0 -> 24800 + 0 -> 14800 overkill 🤦♂️)
second building is attacked with 14800 DMG which get boosted to 34600 DMG 😮 (total damage done is 24800 -> 34600 + 14800 -> 24600 overkill 🤦♂️)
3rd building is attacked with 24600 DMG which get boosted to 54200 DMG 😮 (total damage done is 0 -> 54200 + 0 -> 44200 overkill 🤦♂️)
4rd building is attacked with 44200 DMG which get boosted to 93400 DMG 😮 (total damage done is 0 -> 93400 + 0 -> 83400 overkill 🤦♂️)
5rd building (with commander) is attacked with 83400 DMG which get boosted to 30020.002 DMG 😮 (total damage done is 0 -> 30020.002 + 0 -> 20020.002 overkill 🤦♂️)
6rd building (with commander) is attacked with 20020.002 DMG which get boosted to 11006.001 DMG 🤔 (total damage done is 0 -> 11006.001 + 0 -> 1006.001 overkill 🤦♂️)
in short WTF???
not even clue where to start looking for what is wrong, is there at least one number right? 🤣
Only happens when the innitial target gets destroyed. If the innitial target has >19'800 (>2* 9'900) effectiv HP (a.e. Comet Catcher with Skyelf Commander ~33'333 eHP), then the damage amount applied is correctly.
However if the initial target is destroyed, I've calculated a total damage of up to ~86'667 damage (see testsetup below, everything gets destroyed).
It's quite inconsistant. At least too inconsistant for me to grasp what's really happening. Depending on the setup the (buffed) ability deals inconsistant damage values depending on the number of buildings destroyed:
19'800 (none destroyed)
~24'000 (dont remember the setup)
48'093 (3 buildings destroyed)
86'667 (4 buildings destroyed)
Note: There doesn't have to be a relation on # entities killed to the max damage value, this is just my conculusion after a couple of tests.
@Jolares is correct. And the fix "prevented" is perfect.
The clause on Voidstrom "This damage cannot be warded off with the help of damage reducing abilities because it is able to circumvent every buff or protective shield." corretly takes priority over any damage reducing ability. Thus the Amii Paladins die since their ability clause "Amii Paladins will take 100% less damage" gets overruled.
However, the damaging blow should still damage the surrounding enemies due to this clause: "[...] and distribute 100% of the incoming damage equally to hostile units [...]".
but amii paladins reflect is not tied to negated dmg. it just says "distribute 100% of the incoming damage equally to hostile units".
I would agree with you if the wording was "distribute 100% of the PREVENTED incoming damage equally to hostile units"
Hello Skyladies and Skylords,
The rookies have battled it out and we have a winner! Congratulations to Mirosius for winning the Skylords Rookies#1!
You will receive your boosters within the next week, I will send the BFP until tomorrow.
Big thank you to the mods for helping and the devs for sponsoring!
Jolares liked a post in a topic by Volin in Community Update #30 - December 2022
Xamos liked a post in a topic by Jolares in Bloodhorn(p) upgrade2(II) Stampede damage vs buildings too high when buffed with Tainted Enrage
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