Lyrish Knight Discussion

[Serenthor]

Good day everyone. 

 

I'd like to start a balance discussion around lyrish knight, i could find a recent topic related to my favourite unit in this game. A little while before the game got shut down the card got pretty heavily nerfed since it was too well rounded in pvp especially in shadow frost decks. Sadly it never really got rebalanced to a viable state as far as i can tell, except for being a niche counter to xl units in t2 pvp in combination with frostbite. I think thats a shame, since the card perfectly embodies some aspects of the spirit of the frost faction with its traits (basically the ones that arent covered by dreadnought after its amazing rework) and has an terific design base overall. 

 

As far as i can tell its not useable in pve at all, atleast it always has better alternatives. I readily admit im not perfectly up to speed to the current pvp meta since the skyborn launch, but from what i saw its not even used there anymore either, not even as counter to xl units. 

 

I really would love some changes to the cards, since its so iconic for the game and especially the frost faction so that i dont have to feel bad about using it even in casual rpve 9 runs. In pvp my most fond memories of the game were last stand kind of scenarios, where i got behind in the energy trades but managed to catch an overconfident ofguard opponent with lyrish knight defense against a harvester or t3 units that didnt get much value, so i could creep back in the game. Would love to relive that a little someday.

 

 

In terms of actual changes, i know its not that easy since the card has a few conditions that have to be considered. Mainly that the XL Attack modifier on t2 is in many cases not that valueable and that there always has to be a building around to make the cards really good. Simply buffing its damage back up again could make it potentially too valueable, especially in pvp even against non XL units since it double scales with its protector buff and homesoil/northern keep red. Maybe a power bumb could be better managed by making it pure frost exclusive and balance it around frost only. Another idea would be to make it a t3 unit, but i really wouldnt like that since there are already lots of great cards for frost with northland drake, avatar of frost or reduced cost amii monument as well as even splashable great cards like core dredger. Changing it to t1 or t4 seems also a little weird imo.

 

If i missed some changes in the recent years to it please enlighten me to them, but even as of now i dont think the card has much favor neither in pve nor pvp, so i would like to here some thoughts of you guys and girls. 

 

See you in the forge

 

 

[Xanatoss]

Lyrish Knight has excellent stat efficiency as is. In fact there was a short time in mid 2021 where slightly increased dmg was tested but deemed to oppressive, as Lyrish would have become an all around counter.

It does see pvp play though in

- Stonekin (where it synergizes well with decks built around ice barrier, homesoil, burrower)

- Lost Souls (synergies with Nasty Surprise and Shadow Phoenix)

- Fire/Frost (Rallying Banner + Homesoil)

Its not a mainstay card but far from beeing useless.

[Serenthor]

Ty for your input Xanatoss and bringing me up to date. I don't want to get to nitpicky but i'd like to talk a little bit about your brought up points.

Stonekin pvp: Most meta deck lists i've seen with stonekin dont even feature lyrish knight since you have many great other options. Saying it synergises with ice barrier and burrower implies its for offensive use, but the only real synergy there is the attack buff of the lyrish knight near buildings because you also play barrier next to burrowser so you can homesoil? Thats like arguing every card that can attack synergises with ice barrier and homesoil. Lyrish knight isn't the greates dps option on t2  even when near ice barrier, it would be smarter from my standpoint to use more burrowers in that scenario. Furthermore stacking meele units to attack make them very vulnerable to splash damage, cc, air units as well as slows and roots. You are almost always better off adding range or air units in the mix. Only time lyrish would be better than other options in that case is if the defender uses XL units which isnt realistic in t2 or early t3 battles. 

 

- Lost Souls: With Shadow start, which is generally prefered since you have a better chance to gain map control early on, you dont have enough space for lyrish knight typically.  Shadow phoenix is also rather rarely used in pvp because of its high risk and slow animation, it can be counterplayed rather easily.  Its true that lyrish knight is an amazing option for nasty surprise in t2, enabling great value plays. Nasty surprise requires the opponent to be caught offguards tho so that the unit is not damaged beforehand and that he has many units stacked in one place being vulnerable to aoe.

 

-Fire/Frost pvp:  Dont think rallying banner is really a thing, usually its wrecker getting the deck slot for the mechanic. Same case as with lost souls, the usually prefered fire start tends to cut out the lyrish knight because you have an extended t1 roster. I thinks its generally agreed upon that the only somewhat saving grace for fire/frost is skyfire drake with shields and that the deck is  in a bad place. Seeing that even in that case the rallying banner + lyrish knight is not rly a thing is more of a point to extend on that synergy maybe?

 

Sorry if i came of as little ranty, but your points seem vastly like very niche strategies that mostly get value in theory  and/or are very lose with the term synergy. Then again im probably a little biased since as i stated, its my favourite card and in the top 3 iconic units for me in battleforge with juggernaut and harvester. Also i conced again that im not perfectly up to date with the meta currently on skyforge and that most of my info is from forum searches and watching recent streams/youtube videos. I have competed in pvp tournaments in the past to so im not completely talking out of my ass i hope.

 

 

 

Aside from all that, that was only pvp centric talk, maybe there could be a design idea that would make it a little better in pve without making it opressive in pvp again. I know slapping on flat damage is dangerous with the way the card is designed currently. I also get that there are many other great card rework projects in the work which im grateful for and that take priority at the moment. 

[Xamos]

Hi, I think that I understand your point - Lyrish Knight at first glance looks like a 'flagship'-unit of Frost and feels kinda weak to play - especially in PvE. I myself would also like to see a small buff for this card, but probaly the pointed out 'obvious' buff to simply increase Lyrish Knight´s Damage might be the wrong way (tho a very small Number adjustment wouldn´t hurt either). 

IMO the Problem is, that it currently can´t be viably used as anything else than an XL-Counter (or also the nasty-boom combo). 

What I´d like to see would be a different approach: give the unit a much stronger trample vs small units. 
How epic would that be, charge into battle with your cavalry and literally trample over smaller enemies? 
And it´d make the unit probably also useful in PvE, in areas where you have to fight a lot small units. Obviously you would still have to rely on frostbarrier there. 

If that trample-dmg change would turn out to be too strong on one unit alone, it could be made to only get stronger the more lyrish Knights are around. This way it would look more realistic - if a lot horses charge into battle, the enemie lines get broken. Because right know this trample-effect is barly useful at all if even and could really use a buff.

I don´t know if that is technically feasable/doable tho (adjusting the dmg-number of the trample but nothing else) but it sounds possible, because e.g. Thunderwagon also has a unique trample-damage.

 

What do you think?

Edited January 24, 2023 by Xamos

[Serenthor]

21 hours ago, Xamos said:

Hi, I think that I understand your point - Lyrish Knight at first glance looks like a 'flagship'-unit of Frost and feels kinda weak to play - especially in PvE. I myself would also like to see a small buff for this card, but probaly the pointed out 'obvious' buff to simply increase Lyrish Knight´s Damage might be the wrong way (tho a very small Number adjustment wouldn´t hurt either). 

IMO the Problem is, that it currently can´t be viably used as anything else than an XL-Counter (or also the nasty-boom combo). 

What I´d like to see would be a different approach: give the unit a much stronger trample vs small units. 
How epic would that be, charge into battle with your cavalry and literally trample over smaller enemies? 
And it´d make the unit probably also useful in PvE, in areas where you have to fight a lot small units. Obviously you would still have to rely on frostbarrier there. 

If that trample-dmg change would turn out to be too strong on one unit alone, it could be made to only get stronger the more lyrish Knights are around. This way it would look more realistic - if a lot horses charge into battle, the enemie lines get broken. Because right know this trample-effect is barly useful at all if even and could really use a buff.

I don´t know if that is technically feasable/doable tho (adjusting the dmg-number of the trample but nothing else) but it sounds possible, because e.g. Thunderwagon also has a unique trample-damage.

 

What do you think?

Yes i also always got the impression that its supposed to be a flagship unit with its mechanic and heavily featured artwork/promo card, and it was a good card in general at the start. I feel like its splashability with only one frostorb required broke its neck, since it was decent in pve and a powerful stable in frost pvp, but it made the shadow frost deck overwhelmingly well rounded and strong. 

 

I also really like your Tramble mechanic idea, i can imagine an epic feel charging into a camp with 4-5 knights knocking down small and medium units and doing considerable splashdamage, using homesoil to keep momentum and finish the units of while your leftover master archers and frost mage from t1 can finish buildings or air units. Would potentially also then be easier to balance in pvp than general stat increases. 

 

Tyvm for your reply, i was hoping for some creative ideas and thoughts on the card like that, since its fun for me to dream about a state of the card where i can relive some great moments i had with it a little. 

[Xamos]

On 1/25/2023 at 9:43 AM, Serenthor said:

I also really like your Tramble mechanic idea

Thx, now only @WindHunter would have to notice it and say yes so it may get implemented at some point 😄