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The Guns of Lyr - Discussion Thread

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Responsible members of the Skylords Reborn team recently met to discuss possible changes to campaign maps. What is outlined here are the proposed changes to the map The Guns of Lyr. These changes are not final and are only proposed. As a warning, other map projects such as more RPvE presets and Defensive RPvE have a much higher priority for our team. As such, these, or any campaign map changes, may not happen for a very long time. 

Some changes here are firmer than others, all italicized proposals have accompanying explanations for why we are considering them, but they are the most tentative of all the proposals.

Proposed Changes:

1.   Prevent construction of any structure at the map borders.

2.   Fix the southern flames to actually deal damage.

3.   Add extra gold/experience to the reward if the Kobold Engineers are escorted to at least the third cannon position. 

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As noted in the community update topic, another thing to look at is the fact that the final wave can be forced by destroying the main twilight buildings. But probably only after the proposed changes are through if it turns out to be troublesome.

Guns has some very valuable upgrades that could still be farmed even after gold/XP are considerably adjusted to reward escorting the engineers.

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I would say I only speak as a player, but given my position it is unlikely such a distinction can truly be made.

I have been playing a lot of GoL recently and I have really come to love the map. The other day while playing I had the privilege of running multiple lobbies and helping several players through the map for the first time. We played the map in the standard method, not speedrun, and after the one lobby with 2 players completing it for the first time they told me it was one of the most fun experiences they have had playing the game and a really great defense map. That was the most consistent experience of the players I shepherded, the map was a fun map focused around defense.

Combining previous discussion of this map with my own experience I have the following thoughts:

  1. The ability to destroy the Twilight Manifestation to trigger the final wave should be preserved, but it should not allow the player to avoid the other objectives on the map.
    • Right now triggering the final wave allows the player to ignore the 6 twilight infestations on the map as well as avoid the periodically timed major spawn waves.
      • It makes no sense that Lyr is "safe" when these infestations still exist, which can continue to spawn enemies, and when there are several waves of major enemies still in route.
      • It also makes no sense that the Twilight invaders would suddenly decide to call off further attacks when they have such plentiful resources left to execute their invasion.
  2. We should consider moving the Twilight Slavers/Brutes next to the defender's T3 slightly closer to the wells and orb so the attacker can't get T2 in this way. As it stands, the player runs a swift unit down, builds a well, then immediately kills said unit so that the unit doesn't provide sufficient "light" for the defending Twilight units to spot the wells and orb. I think simply describing how this works sufficiently explains why it shouldn't exist.
  3. Consider tying the attack waves to something different than clearing the first cannon camp. Knowledgeable players don't ever clear the camp so then the spawns never occur, while inexperienced players clear it almost immediately and cause fairly strong waves to start attacking Pos. 3 and Pos. 4. I think it would be better to consider the prudence of tying the spawn trigger to something like player tier, or clearing of the infestations in accord with #1.

In terms of #1 I think there are several different ways to implement an appropriate solution and we could get creative here. For example, we could make it that the Twilight Manifestation is shielded/immune from damage until after the Infestations are cleared, then if triggered early, spawn the remaining timed waves first at 20 second intervals until the final wave is also spawned while requiring all creatures spawned in this way to be killed for the map to finish. Another possible direction is that if there are any remaining twilight infestations when the final wave is triggered, these infestations send out a final waves to attack the player/stronghold. These spawn waves attached to the infestations would also need to be killed before the map is completed. 

In terms of #2, with this change the attacking player would be required to clear a camp to get T2. Can still get the defender's T2 pretty easily but given #1, this would make the defender weaker and he will actually have to defend now.

In terms of #3, I don't like obscure but easily abusable triggers like this. I actually find things like spawn trapping far more legitimate than this because in the case of spawn trapping the player is engaging with a general game mechanic, while in the particular cases like these it feels like lazy implementation or bad design. Given I think our intention should be to fulfill what the original Devs could not, I think making changes like these would be appropriate.

Ultralord and JarodDempsey like this
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  • 2 weeks later...

I totaly agree with WindHunter.

I only had the fix of the last wave in mind (#1), but the T2/T3 "steal" (#1) is also a thing.

I had a lot of runs “normal” runs where one player was going for a speed run strategy and took the T3 of the defending player. Which is not very nice, especial if you didn’t have a good T2 to deal with the rest of the map till you get your T3 at the T4 Position…

Moving the units would fix the swift trick, but I think player would just change the tactic a bit.
Like get your normal T2 and then go for that orb with better unit.
--> Still, should be fixed in my opinion

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  • 2 months later...

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