The Dwarven Riddle - Discussion Thread

[WindHunter]

Responsible members of the Skylords Reborn team recently met to discuss possible changes to campaign maps. What is outlined here are the proposed changes to the map The Dwarven Riddle. These changes are not final and are only proposed. As a warning, other map projects such as more RPvE presets and Defensive RPvE have a much higher priority for our team. As such, these, or any campaign map changes, may not happen for a very long time. 

Some changes here are firmer than others, all italicized proposals have accompanying explanations for why we are considering them, but they are the most tentative of all the proposals.

Proposed Changes:

1.   Players should be made more aware of their own altar by including a minimap indication triangle.

2.   Some of the melee/ranged Crystal Guardians can CC targets, make them visually distinctive.

3.   Disable friendly fire of ranged Crystal Guardians.

4.   Add 1 orb to each side (not at T2) to give each player the ability to go T4.

Dwarven Riddle is usually done by a single carry player while the other players support/defend. One reason for this is because the map lacks sufficient orbs for all players and some of the orbs available are difficult to reach. This additional orb would likely be included in the bottom section.

[Cocofang]

Spoiler

Initial reply:

I would very much like to see the map going into a direction where every player can pull some more equal weight. So that is a very welcome change, in theory. It will make the map easier obviously. But wouldn't it also simply serve to accelerate a carry player and the go-to approach for the map would remain the same? Especially with Amii Monument in the picture. I like the direction but the execution will be very important.

Spoiler

I think there are various signs that maps have issues with either being unintuitive or uniquely vulnerable.

One such sign is when commonly advised tactics consist of outlier cards as crutches to easily overcome hurdles. These influence the progression in a round so heavily that runs with or without them become incomparable.

Another sign can be that people avoid interacting with certain aspects of a map entirely and instead circumvent them.

When the argument is that expert should be hard, then it completely undermines that point when those maps are rather broken in two. An expert map with half the enemies missing/not spawning or lots of its content not being engaged with no longer has a claim on being expert difficulty.

However, as initially mentioned, when expert maps are unclear, sometimes on top of being hard, then the entire thing is running into major approachability issues. Which in turn make players feel like they have to employ some exploit or meta strat, which curbs the creative process.

A big factor is also how easy a tactic that trivializes a map is to execute as well as how widespread it is. High-execution strats that are generally unsuitable or unknown for the broader playerbase don’t warp a map on a major scale. Meanwhile, low-execution tactics degenerate to “cheese strats” and make the content feel lame and unappealing.

It also creates the issue that people come to rely on meta strats and exploits to the point where even thinking about alternatives becomes unappealing. The perceived power gap between the established default strat and whatever they might come up with seems so big that it feels futile to even attempt something else.

The oppressiveness of meta strats and exploits erodes maps in multiple ways, effectively leading to a much shallower experience.

So I want to first look at what issues a map has. Then why they might occur and what parts of the map are getting undermined. Afterwards spitball some ideas on how these issues could be addressed. And finally various elements that could be changed to make these maps more approachable from different angles. Can also be possible compensation nerfs to maps in response to fixes that make them harder.

Main Issue:
I would like to draw attention to what JarodDempsey brought up over in the other topic. Orb stacking to enable a T4 flyer and the defending player having little agency.

Context:
Bases are well defended but the main hardship are the waves of enemies that need to be managed with crucial altar timing. The power of the waves quickly stacks up to levels that the defending player has trouble holding, which is yet another source of frustration in addition of having less resources.

The map is easiest and fastest to clear with one player utilizing the force multiplier that tiers grant and pick off triggers with flyers.

Because orb stacking usually also entrails well stacking, the sacrificing player has little to no resources to even play the game. They are left with a very limited pool of options while they get to watch the carry player do their thing. One player is sacrificing their agency in order to enable the other.

And because tiers act as force multipliers, it quickly derails a map when one player waltzes into sections with T4 that are tuned for two T2 armies. This makes adjusting the map impossible because if tuned for an even orb split between players it becomes a cakewalk with T4. If tuned for orb stacking it becomes incredibly hard for evenly split orbs.

Funneling the maps natural resources (orbs and wells) into one player is a valid approach and usually not an issue when it’s simply one strategy among many. But it is problematic when it becomes the predominant strategy in regular play because it is so lopsided in terms to how the different players get to interact with the game.

When orb stacking is the best option, the problem can be summed up with: Nobody wants to be the bitch. But somebody has to be the bitch. And that’s not a good situation to start out with. It makes the whole map less enticing because half the participating players don’t get to engage a whole lot.

Fix:
Even just adding an orb to the map so that split tier progression becomes more feasible is a great start.

The next step would be to look into ways to force split orbs. Like linking two players together and prohibiting one of them from taking more orbs if they already have the higher orb count.

This would also directly affect the meta strategy that avoids interacting with the various camps and hurdles altogether by simply spawning a beefy flyer and picking off the triggers.

Add additional anti-air measurements to some bases. Not only damage but also CC.

Accessibility:
Add an extra shadow wave or two that can be fended off, giving players more time to breathe before the fire waves have to be triggered.

[Ultralord]

On 9/13/2021 at 4:01 AM, WindHunter said:

2.   Some of the melee/ranged Crystal Guardians can CC targets, make them visually distinctive.

As mentioned bevor: Why not make all Crystal-guy visual matching to their crystal.
So the guardians of the blue crystal gets blue aura, etc. (Could be the effect like in Convoy)