Units shall prio "attacking" instead of "position"

[SgtUseless]

In the last 20 years I played many RTS games and since I am back to Skylords I realised one specific difference in unit-movement and attacking.

Units rather try to move to a position 100% correct instead of attacking when the enemy is in range. Especially if you attack a target (click on it) or attack move (Q).
They rather try to get in optimum position instead of firing in a subpar position. With small units of a 6 man squad it is even worse than with single units or big units.

- We all know the moment a worm readjust its position by a milimeter just to attack a unit right next to the one it just killed (sometimes even if it is closer to the one it killed).
- We all lost some windweavers because they had to spread out evenly instead of firing.
- We all have seen melee units stay arround a target, waiting till it dies instead of attacking the surroundings. Only because you targeted the unit but it is already surrounded by other units of yours. Thats a different problem but also regards the AI's question of priorities in combat.
- We all had a group of archer squad firing, tho the ones in the back don't shoot. So we click again on an enemy unit and all of the group rearange, even the ones that were already attacking.
- We all spawned a squad near other owned units and as soon as they spawn, the other units rearange their formation for no reason. Not that harmful but it shows the problem in a different situation.

Theese things often lead to hard micro managing of your troops. It is even better to not micro manage at all and let your troops stay in a bad position as long as they attack instead of move arround and waste time. You mostly can't back them of and let them re-attack in a further back position. They would loose to much time moving to a propper position and often die in the process. So to "safe" your low HP units with micro is often not possible or worth it.

This also leads into the principle of "focus firing is king" in this game. You cant really split your units that good and attack different enemies because 70% of your units in a group move arround while 30% are in correct position and attack. The floor seems to have a grid that can only be occupied by a specific amount of units (1) and if it is occupied other units move arround searching for a different spot. This often ends in them not attacking at all. Even tho they are ranged units or have long enough arms and weapons to reach the enemy.

I dont know how hard coded and possible it even is to change that topic. Modern RTS benefit from having their unit combat prio on the attack and not the movement or positioning.

It would also be nice to move single units of a 6 man squad. But I bet thats impossible or would require a lot of work and rebuilding the unit mechanic.

Maybe it is the philosophy of Battle Forge and it shall never be changed. I find it kinda frustrating even tho I already got used to it.
Maybe this community doesn not want to change it. But I thought it would be nice to create a discussion arround this topic.
It would also be nice to hear from some pvp people since I only played PVE in this game so far.
And I would love to hear from the Developers-Team if it is even possible to change it. Even if you would never consider to do it.

 

I'm eagerly awaiting your answers 😄

 

Greetings

SgtUseless

Edited October 1, 2023 by SgtUselsess

[Kubik]

How hard it would be to code? I have no idea, because we do not have source code of the game.
But there is already an config for action priorities, that can be easily changed.combatvalues.xml (MeleeAttackerFreeSlot was already changed, but the change is not in a file)
To me it seems, that it is configured to generaly prioritize attacking over moving.
If you would want to play with these values, please check out:

Changing all squads to have only 1 unit, and cards to cost 6 (4) times less and increase charges by same amount, would be probably not too hard to do, but you would end up with cards that cost for example 11.6666 power, and are quite OP, because sqads with abilities would be able to use these  abilities 6 times more often.
You would also be able to have less units on map in total, because of population limit 120.
And last but not least I am sure some players would no longer be able to run the game, because it would be so much more demanding, and they have quite a weak CPUs.

I would be also interested what pro players think, because I hea a lot about micro management.

[Metagross31]

1 hour ago, Kubik said:

Changing all squads to have only 1 unit, and cards to cost 6 (4) times less and increase charges by same amount, would be probably not too hard to do, but you would end up with cards that cost for example 11.6666 power, and are quite OP, because sqads with abilities would be able to use these  abilities 6 times more often.

That would not be a good idea imo. Not only for the points you made, but also since you have to spawn 6x as many units to get an army together and micro them all at once, which would be a nightmare.

[Kubik]

I can name many more points 😛 but I considered this one quite obvious.

[SgtUseless]

17 hours ago, Kubik said:

Changing all squads to have only 1 unit, and cards to cost 6 (4) times less and increase charges by same amount, would be probably not too hard to do, but you would end up with cards that cost for example 11.6666 power, and are quite OP, because sqads with abilities would be able to use these  abilities 6 times more often.

No not quite like that. I would not change anything in card costs, power, unit size/limitations, spawn amount or anything like that. I'm simply talking about beeing able to move the single units of a six man troop one by one. Imagine you spawn 6 "space marines" in SC2 with one card but you can control them individually. The same would happen if you spawn a windweaver troop. The individual archer shall be controlled.

Ofcourse cards with abilites would need a specific rule. There has to be a balance like "you can trigger the ability with a single unit of your troop" or "you need a specific amount of the single troop type close to each other to trigger the ability". And yes, I see that the game can get more complicated with that idea.
ex
- When you have something like an incubator that transforms a ground unit. what would count as a ground unit and how many single individual archers would be needed to transform? It would change the current sense of a "squad". The individuals still need to be somehow marked as being part of a specific troop for the ability but have the freedom to fight freely.
- what if 5 out of 6 units of a squad die, how would the game register if you should still be able to cast its ability or not?
- how would the lifepool of the different units split?
- many other scenarios I can't think of right now

I think this topic is wishful thinking anyway. It's a core fundament of the game and I bet it's easier to create a new game than rewrite Skylords. 🤣  

15 hours ago, Metagross31 said:

but also since you have to spawn 6x as many units to get an army together and micro them all at once, which would be a nightmare.

That is actually my point. lol. I do want more control about my small units but I'm limited. Micro managing is only matter of practice.
I see your concerns, that is why it is important to see what the community thinks about it and not only what "I" would love to see. 😄 

 

The topic about movement and attacking is way more important for me and a fluent fighting experience. Thank you for your anwser I will check your link and attachement.

17 hours ago, Kubik said:

To me it seems, that it is configured to generaly prioritize attacking over moving.
If you would want to play with these values, please check out:

Because if it is possible to change that for everyone I think it would only be a benefit.

 

I would love to hear more from the community.

 

 

Edited October 2, 2023 by SgtUselsess

[Kubik]

5 hours ago, SgtUselsess said:

6 "space marines" in SC2 with one card but you can control them individually.

Never played Star Craft 2 (assuming it is SC2 😛 )

Second option would be to make all squad cards spell, do most of the same changes as mentioned before, and the spell would spawn 6 squads of 1 unit, instead of 1 squad of 6 units.
Which would again have significant implications on the balance of the game, and the experience, because you would not see health, or damage on spell cards, you spells returns 100% of the cost to the void power.
But the problem with abilities would be exactly the same.
 

6 hours ago, SgtUselsess said:

you need a specific amount of the single troop type close

Spart from not solving the issue, the game would turn to slideshow for many players with such restriction.

 

6 hours ago, SgtUselsess said:

When you have something like an incubator that transforms a ground unit

It always refers to a squad, so after such change it would be a squad with one unit.

 

6 hours ago, SgtUselsess said:

The individuals still need to be somehow marked as being part of a specific troop for the ability

I do not think that is possible.

 

6 hours ago, SgtUselsess said:

how would the lifepool of the different units split?

No change needed there, each unit in squad have its own health.

[SgtUseless]

17 hours ago, Kubik said:

Which would again have significant implications on the balance of the game, and the experience, because you would not see health, or damage on spell cards, you spells returns 100% of the cost to the void power.

Thats exactly what I was refering to. Your solution of six single squads is good but it dissolves the sens of the current "squad" and continues into the other problems I mentioned.. I probably shouldnt have mentioned it at all being aware of all the consequences.  Maybe all this has to wait for a Skylords 2 (in my dreams 😄 ).
 

Is it possible to play with the settings in your mentioned "combatvalues.xml" on a test-server?
Do I need a specific installation for that?

[Kubik]

not without modyfying the game.