[Balance changes to game]

I mean the whole balancing discussion started because some people want every card to be viable (to an extend) in pvp (not that many also wanting it for pve) and achieving this by nerfing the currently viable ones.

So far only the supposedly far smaller pve community has partly voiced disapproval about their beloved strong card option‘s demise. 

I wonder why for instance the plenty of pvp fire mains do not say anything about the by non fire pvp players demanded nerfs for example for thugs

___

what about we take a different approach and do try to balance by buffing the weaker choices to some extend instead of weakening the currently strong choices.

in a pvp scenario both parties would benefit from the aligned strength and in pvp more options become viable but the old one not per se dismissed 

[Balance changes to game]

4 minutes ago, WindHunter said:

Can we stop spamming the thread on this subject so we can talk about other things without it getting drowned by this? Kubik has already said he is making the change, and you guys are just throwing a lot of words at the wall saying the same thing other and other again without understanding his reasoning. 

Kubik I am suddenly understanding your reasoning for discord a lot more.

Also, from earlier, will you be able to add/remove unit abilities like Steadfast, Swift, and Slow easily or is that too complicated for now?

Well so why discuss this at all if Kubiks decisions are final already.

[Balance changes to game]

12 minutes ago, Kubik said:

so you even agree that card that make even bigger difference that amii moument would be "compliant with the rules"
"Why do u guys keep coming up with this exaggerated example" isn't that obvious? because amii monument on soultree do exactly the same

Yes. But I don’t request to introduce any card

We are going circles here, Loriens should know best that the difficult part and all the action takes place before u reach that point of the game in soultree where you build the amii. It pretty much only saves you clearing one annoying „rpve like camp“ you would need to build an attack force for otherwise

[Balance changes to game]

14 minutes ago, Kubik said:

So you would like us to create card that kill everything on the map so you can be first on leaderbors if you manage to play it fastest, because no one expecting that card to exist when they was creating the rules so it is fine to add it later, rules will be the same, and players that do not want to use that car will not be forced to, unles whey will want to get competitive times...

Why do u guys keep coming up with this exaggerated example of the instant win card? I don’t ever requested you to introduce that, nor change an existing card into that. 

——

if you play fastest ofc you should be ranked 1

“no one expecting that card to exist“ read in current game (because every card is known) as „no one thought that strategy would work“ and you got the key to becoming first

———-

It would be compliant with the rules yes

[Balance changes to game]

14 minutes ago, Kubik said:

his example was good, no one said car can not be used during the race, so someone exploited it after the car was invented, also no one said you can not use jetpcack, teleport or any other device they did not think about when they was creating the rules.

These maps already exist, you can simply create them with map editor.

So? U say it ur self :“ when they was creating the rules“

and these rules allow players to make choices freely

and you want to change that now, hence Reduce  freedom

——

npc maps: ok.

[Balance changes to game]

17 minutes ago, WindHunter said:

This is a flawed reasoning, let me illustrate via two examples, one for PvP and one for PvE.

(1) Imagine you are playing checkers. In checkers you can only move forward, until a piece is kinged, and you must jump a piece if it is possible. Now imagine you set up a nice 2 for 3 jump trap for your opponent but when he falls for it he refuses to execute the jump. He says that the rules of checkers violates his "freedom" and not only should he not have to jump, and thus give you a piece advantage, but he should also be allowed to move backwards at any time. You would rightfully think this absurd as the game isn't a game without rules and freedom in the game exists only because the rules exist. Your opponent checker nihilism/relativism in defense of his "freedom" would make the game itself unplayable. This is the PvP example.

(2) Imagine you are running a 5K race. When you start the race you run the first 2 kilometers and are tied with a fellow runner. At this point your fellow runner stops, walks over to a car waiting on the side of the road, and decides to drive the next 2 kilometers. You run the fastest 5K time ever on that course, but your fellow runner unsurprisingly wins the race and "runs" faster then you, such that he know holds the course record. When you confront him afterwards that he violated the norms of the race and cheated/exploited the system by driving he tells you that "it doesn't sound fair to me to inhibit other runners' freedom by forcing them to only run in the slower way that you like". Now its obvious this person's appeal to freedom is absurd, because unless the norms of the race are enforced, then their is no reason for the competition in the first place. Additionally, his time should be stricken from the record for its exploitation to begin with. This is the PvE example, and I think its obvious to see how to fits the scenario with cards like Amii Monument in Soultree. 

Well your examples address a different situation.

In your examples the rules are always set and the player behaves against these  rules.

But in BattleForge currently moving backwards in chess or using the car in the race (=exploits) is allowed.

So you guys want a change of the existing rules.

——————-

7 minutes ago, Kubik said:

simply put NPC on map with 2 player teams there is multiple requests for more maps like that last one:

 

Well that doesn’t exist yet, and if you do it remains pvp, the npcs, like Minions in lol, remain secondary, primary the players fight each other with the minions as sidequest to get some kind of bonus 

as this would also be listed in the map under pvp it should have pvp rules apply to it 

[Balance changes to game]

27 minutes ago, Kubik said:

look at upgraded nomad for example there are already 4 points, and no space for another point, and if health would be changed for example and you would make it only a small point, and someone would not notice it then he would be suprised his unit has less health, or if maps is both PvP and there are montests thould the unit have PvP health + PvE health, because they will be fighting both?

Make it a visual indicator, like cards that were marked for tome decks.

second point I don’t get, or how can a map be pvp and pve at the same time ?

13 minutes ago, Loriens said:

I do think in this thread we do not talk about really huge balance changes, which can completely change whole balance in Battleforge.
We are talking about obvious problems, mostly about PvP, like Phase/Mortar and green Nether Warp.
I meant that if balance changes somehow affect speedrun tactic, speedrunners in other game usually simply find out new sequence for best time.

Well ofc because then other things automatically become the new best.

But having a worse then previous best as incentive to get other players to play? Since you as experienced player can freely decide without the changes if u want to master a different slower strategy aswell

——————

Also: Look ah the amount of people who voted (- those with multi accounts) and

where are the hundreds of eagerly waiting players out there ? Vote boys and girls !

[Balance changes to game]

6 minutes ago, Loriens said:

Of course.

Well I don’t.

If you like to finish the map slower then possible feel free to do so, but it doesn’t sound fair to me to inhibit other players freedom by changes that ensure everybody can ONLY play the slower way you like.

(whilst my proposition keeps both options available)

[Balance changes to game]

12 minutes ago, Kubik said:

multiple people said it is already too small that they can not read it. I can read it but bit bigger would be better so that is not valid option

Then make the screen frame bigger for the infotexts?

if you mean the bullet point „pvp“ being to small just use an icon instead and put that on the card somewhere to indicate there are pvp changes that can be read if hovered over

[Balance changes to game]

4 minutes ago, Kubik said:

and if it will not fit? there are already some cards that do not fit and some text overflow in some languages

Well then apply the same solution you intent to apply to the already existing cases 

for instance: change Font size by -1

[Balance changes to game]

Ah and regarding the how would you display pvp only changes on the card:

simply add another of these ability „bullet points“ like the effect „Swift“ and name it „pvp“ and then if u hover over the card u see specified what is different there 

and if it is technically difficult then just postpone balancing until u have that feature developed ...

[Balance changes to game]

10 minutes ago, Kubik said:

sorry typo "peaceful" like not have to kill all the enemies, just skip them, because you want to "happily skip clearing the last part"

I know what "DifficultyVeryHard" is and you may get a nice suprise in that regard  

Well I only want a surprise if we agree to refrain from the amii change

[Balance changes to game]

6 minutes ago, Kubik said:

oh so you would like "pecefull" mode for all maps?

so you want insta win all maps where main objective is to kill the boss?

Doesn't that sound at least bit wrong to you?

If you so agree with EA why are you even here? they kinda approved game being dead

There is no boss in the end part u are skipping in soultree

I do only agree in that one point with ea not changing amii on soultree. Ofc not their decision to shut down.

not sure what the peaceful mode is about but If u mean my proposed 4th difficulty: very hard, it is actually quite the opposite as its name says:

-there you could not play amii

-map as always quite a bit harder in terms of enemies etc.

[Balance changes to game]

13 minutes ago, Kubik said:

1. When the map was released that card did not exist
2. so you skip part of map, just because single card
3. check map next time you will be playing it it show you which monuments you should have

Because of that I thin it is a bug, that they add card without checking for consequences (not to mention that you have the orb for only 250 instead of 300 power, that can aslos make big difference on some other maps, yes ability cost 160 power, but you get 100% of that back)

Battleforge did not shut down immediately after release of Amii and back in the days already people found that mechanic and EA did not do anything about it. 

So they kinda approved it (probably you can find discussions about it in the old forum).

The energy cost is an amii specific thing and does not propose a map exclusive issue.

Why not simply update the quest indicators so that no monument blinks. Pretty sure EA didn’t care about that and that’s why nothing was done about it.

Skipping parts of the map (here a relatively small part as the core story is pretty much done and ur t4 already) is not necessarily a bad thing. Players can still play it without amii, but as advocate of freedom why do you have to enforce those that happily skip clearing the last part, to play what they don’t like.

As I mentioned in my previous post if you really think you have to, do it in a 4th difficulty.

9 hours ago, Chibiterasu said:

I would love to see some balance changes especially some nerf for those way too often used LSS, Amii-Monument and Enlightment/Batariel in Pve. However I think in the latter case there should be more of a change in the way it works instead of simple number changes.

Nobody forces you to play them all the time right now.

Why does it sound good to you to force others stop playing what they like? 

[Balance changes to game]

1 hour ago, Kubik said:

amii in soultree is BUG and will be fixed at some point

Why is that a bug ? You have 5 orbs so you fullfill the quest.

If you really want to ruin the speed and ease of a moderately good run, make it a difficulty very hard condition only, so expert can remain as it is

[Balance changes to game]

8 hours ago, Loriens said:

I cant understand speedruners who dont want balance changes.
Normal speedruners just invent new sequence of actions in this case.
Of course, all time records for some maps should be count from last balance/map change patch.

Well I stated my reasoning, nerfs permanently lower possible times in speedruns. What exactly is good about that ? 

You would like to spend more time in Soultree cause post-nerf amii  is no longer an option ?

 

[Balance changes to game]

1 hour ago, Deldrimor said:

Still you can do it with the same tactics. You have same chances, same tactics, same decks, same combinations. Its always the same scheme. Nothing to loose. Its really always the same.

In pvp its not the same. Different matchups, some mainstreamdecks force to make decks like for example bandits, frost t1, nature t1, not really playable.

 

If you nerf the hp by thugs -70 pvp only will profit in getting more balanced matchups while speedrunners have still the same chance, the same decks, the same tactics and so on.

I clearly can say speedrunners dont loose anything while pvp will get to a better place.

 

I can now only finish with my statement telling to the devs: Please continue balancing cards mainly focused on pvp like it was common practice in the original bf.

It is for sure not in the senses of the devs in the old bf to stop balancing pvp just because there are a few speedrunners having the opinion their from the beginning on of the original bf not intended "mode" would be in big danger. Its clearly wrong.

Nothing to lose ? Achieving old times would no longer be possible for example. And my example above, stated that a deck chance is necessary, same for thugs whose ability is just as much beneficial in pve as in pvp (if not even more...).

Having the game mode specific balancing if possible sounds good to me. Not to balance in pve (as you say everythign is fine there) would then remain an option.

[Balance changes to game]

50 minutes ago, Deldrimor said:

This pvp only balancing isnt a realistic solution since it would take a lot of programming work. 

In the original bf there were balancing changes and in this bf there will be.

 

Also you brought exactly 0 arguements what makes speedrun worse.

As i said i was a very competitive speedrunner back in the days and i can tell you that speedrunners only profit from balancing changes. Why so?

Speedrunning is always about keeping secrets. If you cant solve the riddle and find its solution you most of the time never will be as good as others. One phasetowernerf for example does absolutely not affect any of the strategys. If there is anything that affect one single strategy then i really dont see the problem. Players just have to find equal strategys or the same one and they just have to speed things up. Thats it.

 

I also want to mention overall the competitive speedrunning scene is very small (only maximum 15 players) and it was in the original bf only a side mode implemented after years. In pvp there are overall hundreds of players.

 

Also in the original bf were balancing changes. And if you believe it or not. Even when the speedrunning ranking list was implemented after years, there still were balancing changes ongoing. The balancing changes were mainly focused on pvp in the original bf and this absolutely has to be continued now. Because nothing affects speedrun and ofcourse nothing of pvp changes will affect normal pve.

 

The truth for the small speedrunner scene that makes maybe only 5% of the playerbase of bf is:

 

The balancing was fine all time for them and it will be fine all time after new balancing changes.

Just because something used to be  doesn’t mean we need to stick with it. I do agree that game mode specific balancing might be difficult but who knows what our lovely devs can come up with ?.

Regarding the changes interference: that depends on the kind of changes, already seemingly unimportant changes like nerfing a t1 unit’s hp pool can have cascading effects, as for instance you rely on your teammates feeding you with a unit, now Post nerf fof void return decreases, so they have to swap to another unit, unfortunately due to deck limitations this unit was also the only swift unit they had to get around, making them unable to dodge incomes or outrun them etc. 

This is a constructed example just to show that changes that might not influence pve in fact can do.

[Balance changes to game]

1 hour ago, Deldrimor said:

 Every speedrun tactic on every map is absolutely still doable with any cardchanges for pvp.

I strongly disagree. At best I would like a pvp only balancing for existing cards. Keeping EVERYTHING as it is for pve, not just supposedly everything. 

["Pure" decks. Are they viable?]

For the purpose of just beating the map somehow, sure. But usually customised mixed decks for each map score better in terms of speed and turn out to be easier aswell.

Regarding the price, to achieve same efficency (to an extend if possible at all)  a mixed deck should Turn out cheaper, especially as it is roughly the same cards that are the core of mixed decks for many maps. 

[All-time fastest speedrun rankings]

New Records:

Bad Harvest Duo: 7.21.4

Kotg Solo: 14.26.8

[DROP RATES (%)]

Yes, you only get upgrades as a map specific reward.  Tier  1 upgrades on standard, Tier 2 on advanced and Tier 3 on expert. Since only the tier 3 ones are "rather expensive" those are the ones it could make sense to get them by playing the map, but as roughly 25 card upgrades can drop per map so it is unlikely to get the one u need. 

[DROP RATES (%)]

= So every card’s upgrade drop rate is supposedly equal

If you want a specific upgrade u get it faster by just speedrunning and buying it with the earned Gold (Gol in Gold is short for the place where you get the gold—> guns of lyr  ) 

[Proposal: Rewards]

You can just reroll that quest.

Or keep it and not fulfill it, given that you did all other quests that day, you will still get 2 new quests next day and that way avoid to ever get the quest again!

[No quest reward]

“Finish progressively more and more quests. Each time the achievement is completed, the player receives the booster reward, the steps are currently: 1, 3, 5, 10, 20, 30, 50, 100, 200, 400, 600, 800, 1000, 1200, 1400, 1600, 1800, 2000, 4294967295 quests.“