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Hi guys, have been playing for a while now. I often play PvP sparrings to test new units. I always liked the idea behind legendary units, but I dont think they are viable in PvP right now. Their abalitys dont have enough of an impact for the power costs. 1.Rogan Kayle is ok but could need a little buff. 2.Viridya should be a M counter. Cause she is a S counter right now, but she knocks small units back and then does not even hit them fully. So she does like no dmg. 3.Moons abality costs waaaay to much. While she herself costs too much too. These are the cards, which could be very interesting if buffed right.
Pretty much everyone agrees that twilight transformation is a lame ability. If you don't know what that is, all "twilight" (cards which require nature and fire) have an ability theme which is to transform into another twilight card in your deck. Sometimes the transformation comes with an ability (the best one is twilight minions' ability which makes nearby twilight units do 30% more damage for 20 sec). The ability is lackluster because Transforming takes 85% of the cost of the regular unit (in most cases) +at least 60 power for the cheapest twilight unit, which is usually more expensive than just summoning the unit you want in the first place, and way more expensive than just using a breeding grounds Transforming does not heal the unit Transforming still takes charges Transforming does not allow you to exceed the unit limit The only upside of transforming is that your unit becomes unbound. Unlike similar abilities like shadow phoenix and mind control, twilight transformation continues to bind unit power. There are 3 uses where I have seen the twilight transformation effect in games: In PvP, if you want to launch a sneak attack with vileblood you could start with twilight minions and transform them, to spend 171 power for a 130 cost unit with a 20 sec damage buff. In my opinion this is not nearly worth 41 power. In PvP, if you use twilight curse on a vileblood it triggers the vileblood's transformation effect. This ability WILL spawn a full HP unit, but it cost 100 power for a unit that is actually worse than vileblood + lava ability. IMO this is still underwhelming and also requires TWO extra slots in an already slot-intensive deck In PvE, you can make a massive unbound army. I tried this once or twice and generally found it ineffective (thats because it's actually still bound). PvE speedrunners also say that it's not worth it (especially because twilight t4 units are not very good and there is no flexibility for other orbs). I suggest that twilight transformation become something like a "twilight evolution." Instead of a unit transforming into any unit in the deck, I suggest that the unit be able to transform into a specific unit with one tier higher, once that number of orbs is obtained. For example, perhaps vileblood could transform into mutating maniac once you get t3. Perhaps mutating maniac could transform into twilight abomination once you get t4. Alternatively, each unit could transform into a "better" version of itself. For example, the pvp vileblood could transform into the pve vileblood, with better stats and a powerful effect upon death. (I would totally play deathglider if it could transform into the pve deathglider ) My proposed solution has several benefits: It reduces the number of deck slots required. In PvP, fire nature requires many slots in t2. Many fire nature decks run a single t3 card (giant slayer). I could see players using deathglider instead of hurricane if the deathglider could turn into a t3 unit at that stage of the game (so when I'm t3, I spawn deathglider for 60p and transform it for say 100p). This is weaker than just spawning a t3 unit because it takes more micro, it's slower, it cost more, and twilight t3 cards are simply weaker than other t3 cards. However, with deck slots saved, it might be worth it (also the power is unbound, which is a big advantage). It allows more pve deck flexibility. Do you want to play a twilight abomination, but also use frenetic assault? If there is a t3 card which transforms into twilight abomination, then you could play that unit and transform it. Since the "evolve" effect only considers the number of orbs, not the color, you could use this workaround to create an army of twilight abominations with nat-fire-shad-shad orbs. (If this is too strong for pve, we could make it check both the number and color of orbs). It saves charges. Pure twilight decks don't have access to offering, so this is another way to bypass charges. Use a t3 card with 8 or 12 charges and transform it to get 8 or 12 t4 units. Of course it requires more total power spent this way. I'm not sure how t4 creatures could evolve, but they could also just keep the regular twilight transformation effect. Not like anyone would use the new or old effect on t4 units, even if the effect was somehow good. EDIT: Just to clarify for those not following the discussion in the balance discord, the current proposal is for units to transform/evolve into a better version of themselves. So when you are t3, you could transform your vileblood into a t3 vileblood similar to the pve enemy. Zyna has a working demo of this effect. For t4 units, the transformation will be based on power instead of having another orb. The bound power will be the same as the original unit, hp will be the same fraction (1/2 hp t2 vileblood turns into 1/2 hp t3 vileblood), and the transformation cost will be cheap or possibly free. We have the ability to balance a new version of every twilight card, so I'm working on this proposal over the next few days. EDIT 2: Deckbuilding options Since some people don't know what is in a typical FN deck, here is a standard one: The t3 is a bit larger than typical for FN (smaller than pure fire), so you could replace mortar or sunderer for t3 cards, but you will need to make some t1 concessions to do that. I currently play with sunderer-->vileblood because I think the L units is strong against the meta options right now (although vileblood is probably the weakest L unit in all of T2). Another option is sunderer-->virtuoso, which gives higher odds of winning t3. Assuming that all the changes go as I want, I would experiment with the following deck which is designed for heavy t3 fights like 2v2: So sundy-->vileblood sacrifices t1 options (esp against shadow) to have some better t2 matchups against some factions (pure shadow, lost souls, Pure fire) and a t3 unit which is like virtuoso. Gladi-->twilight hag (assuming it becomes t2) because hag will be able to 1-shot + erupt skyfire drake, which is the main reason gladi is needed. Gladi would be a better L counter and swift unit (as I am thinking about this though, FN still struggles a bit against L units so I wonder if hag would need the exact same stats as gladi, but without swift and disenchant) Scythe fiends-->deathglider means you'll struggle against defenders and spirit hunters. If deathglider got a t2 buff this might be viable. In 2v2 though, my partner's darkelves can take care of enemy s uniits as long as I provide knockback via hurricane or deathglider. In 1v1 i might keep scythe fiends and use deathglider instead of hurricane if I really wanted to include this card. Ghostspear-->twilight minion is the most obvious substitution. Ghostspear is better because it has slightly better stats, has reach to kill rooted melee units, and can switch to S counter. All of these bonuses are nice, but rarely dealbreakers. In this deck I'm also assuming that twilight hag get some kind of cc buff in t3, so perhaps I could try dropping mortar-->thunderstorm to really round out a t3-heavy deck. Analysis: this deck will suffer against S units and L units (depending on twilight hag t2 stats) in t2 but this can be overcome by a shadow partner's Aura of corruption and darkeleves. In return I get 3 below-average t3 cards, 2 above average t3 cards (deathglider and giant slayer), and thunderstorm (currently available but makes no sense because if t3 lasts longer than 2 minutes FN is out of charges and dead). The "below average" t3 units would help round out unit counters (twilight hag is AA and L counter, minions can defend silverwind or enemy giant slayers) while also added more overall charges to FN. Lack of charges is one reason that FN loses t3 to other decks. Even if all 6 "t3" cards were at the average power level of a t3 card, this t3 would still not be too strong. Consider that lost souls typically plays a 5 card t3 where all cards are significantly above the average power curve, and if players really want to emphasize t3 it's possible to use 7-8 t3 cards in shadow frost, pure shadow (I've even seen 10 card t3 in 2v2 pure shadow), and aragorn-style stonekin. Having these cards as a t3 option would not make fire nature too strong, but it would provide a "win more" feature which FN completely lacks. I expect this deck would become a strong meta option in 2v2 because t3 is more important there, but in 1v1 most high-level games are ended in t1 or t2 (unless you're fighting a defensive deck that just wants to save slots and go t3). In 1v1 I could see twilight minions being played most of the time, with vileblood and twilight hag also played some of the time depending on the player and meta. Scythe fiends are also important in many matchups, so deathglider is a hard sell unless it could replace hurricane by changing its its attack pattern (like frost mage) to more reliably knock back s units. (although don't forget that frost mages have better stats than deathglider and stonekin players still usually play both frost mage and hurricane).
Dear Skylords I opened this threat, because of the discussions concerning the PvP-Balance we allready have in this Forums. Because the discussions both deal with specific cards or specific ideas for balancing and i have the feeling that it is missleading at the moment (eg. talking about giving pure fire a Wareagle counter on the one hand and talking about OPness of (pure fire) Cliffdancing on the other hand). To get the balancing PvP discussion better organized i want to collect all (perceived) balancing issues in PvP here in this thread. The goal is to first make a list with all of those issues, then go down that list point for point to discuss it: Is this realy an issue, does it has to be changed, how could it be changed. As a conclusion we would have a list of REAL Issues that should be adressed (with ideas on how they could be adressed) and a list of only PERCEIVED Issues, that are no real ones and only come because people don't know how to play vs certain strategies or vs certain Decks. Please as a first step only post (in short words) which Balancing Issues YOU think are in Battelforge that need to be adressed. I am gonna collect all of those in a List here in the first post. After some time of collecting we can discuss each issue and see if it realy is a thing that needs a fix, or if it's not. After we have a list of REAL Balancing Issues we can start to discuss those in seperate threads again. I Hope this will lead to a more sophisticated Discussion about PvP balancing and will lead us in a direction so that we can start to balance or test balancing ideas when the server is up and running (maybe on a seperate testserver). I am gonna start that List with the issues that I think are problematic in BaFo PvP. I am gonna ad the name of the person who reports an issue in brackets behind it. Please be aware, that not everybody has to be your opinion, just post everything YOU THINK is a balancing Problem in PvP. You don't have to post any ideas how to solve this problem, lets first only collect, then discuss all the points. Perceived Balancing Issues in PvP: - Weakness of Bandit T2 and Shadow/Nature T2 (Nachtalb) - Shadow/Frost T3 is overpowered (Nachtalb) - Tree Spirits are problematic in Nature T1 (Nachtalb) - lack of a cheap t2 m/m counter in pure nature (LagOps) - phasetower is problematic against nature (and maybe frost?) t1 (LagOps) - lack of reliable wareagle counters for pure fire (LagOps) - bandits being underpowered vs frostsplash T2s (SunWu II.) - cursewell being overpowered in frostsplash T3s (SunWu II.) - shield building being overpowered (SunWu II.) - war eagle + stormsinger(ability) being overpowered vs pure fire and fire/nature T2 (SunWu II.) - firedancers over cliffs/walls being overpowered (SunWu II.) - the (bug ab)use of netherwarp (green) casted on shadow mages being overpowered (SunWu II.) - Brannoc's special ability being too strong (SunWu II.) - pure nature being slightly underpowered vs certain m-unit attacks in early T2 (SunWu II.) - lost grigori's special ability being slightly too strong (SunWu II.) - phasetower and mortar being slightly too strong (SunWu II.) - Grigori's taunt bug (Aragorn) - Razorshard knockback delay bug (Aragorn) - Nothern star bug (Aragorn) - Juggernaut and Mo's ability CC-Bug (Aragorn) - Brannoc : Ability too strong (Aragorn) - Nature t1 : Give them something to deal with structure (mortar and phase tower) (Aragorn) - Nature t2 : Give them a M/M. (Aragorn) - Additional energie (energy parasite, thugs, etc.): Bad Concept (Aragorn) - Mountainer: Shield ability OP (Aragorn) - Well curse OP in 2vs2 (Aragorn) - Lajesh unbalanced : Too much wall and cliff potential on nearly every well. (Aragorn) - Bandits UP (Aragorn) - PvP is balanced/there should be no discussions at the forums at this point (Anonymous, xHighTech)