[Daily Card Discussion]

14 hours ago, Loptous said:

Sorry guys pretty late to day, a lot going on.

Anways let's talk about the most essential card in any pure fire deck.

I won't be able to talk much today because of real-life stuff, but tomorrow I should

Best T2 M/M in the game. Nightcrawler already has only barely better stats than Enforcer, but the damage of the charge gives this unit a big edge.

The only other M/M that can beat Enforcer is a frenzied Nightcrawler. However, just like other M/M units, this card is not of much use outside of pvp.

Without this card, pure Fire wouldn't be nearly as strong as it is.
 

[Daily Card Discussion]

9 minutes ago, Kaliber84 said:

Allcards got a wrong cover for the card. It is not a T3 card but T2. I checked that ingame.

Additional info for the card: It transforms any card up to T2 into a Twilight Bug (1000M/900M) which makes it a little bit superior to a Nightcrawler (815M/745M). The power cost is reduced to 110->100 at U2. U1 reduces cooldown to 30s->20s and U3 to 20s->15s.

IMO if used on a friendly unit the Twilight Bug (red) is inferior to Scythe Fiend after the buff wears off (100 power + unit cost for the spell) as it will only deal slightly more dmg vs M units (1500 compared to 1400 by U3 SF) and lacks the S counter. In theory one could save a unit (the Twilight Bug spawns with full life) but that just makes it an inferior heal. The red Twilight Curse definitely needs to be buffed in some way.

The purple Twilight Curse might be a little underpowered but it can be useful at T2 I guess.

Could you test if you can use it on Harvester? The card does not state that it cannot, but I imagine that would be a brutal hard counter.

In either case I think the purple affinity is the more interesting one (as I can't imagine of a scenario where it is worth using), but it just costs too much and a normal CC has a much greater AoE.
 

[Daily Card Discussion]

8 hours ago, LagOps said:

pure nature really needs a reliable m/m counter and i STILL think we should simply take treespirit and rework it into a t2 card! it would solve the m/m counter issue and would help out root decks which are a bit underplayed. i would buff mainly the damage in its mele form so it can get rid of burrowers or at least push them off the well, the rooted form should not be overly buffed as the root network amplification really gets out of control quickly. and most impostantly we can finally play a t1 without having to deal with this broken turtle card and minimal t1 builds. it just saves far too many slots when compared to a conventional t1 and prevents almost all offensive plays vs. nature.

parasite swarm can't really help out vs. burrowers at all due to hurricane, but making it steadyfast would definately remove too much counterplay to it (erupt, nasty, hurricane, frostmage...). ps is allready surprisingly good against m units, especially pure fire hardly stands a chance.

Yeah, I was actually thinking the same about Treespirit ^^

 

7 hours ago, Loptous said:

Can't talk much today, a lot going on so here is an easy one

Most has been said about the card already, I guess it is just the "mandatory" S/S creature, only this time it's Frost.

I like the fact that this unit does not have a special ability, as that makes it unique on its own and it does feature the best stats among all T1 creatures if you consider its stats (exclusing Windweavers). Sadly, even making it M/S wouldn't be that great since Imperials should actually be resposible for this job?

I would just let it be. I've seen people that like using them. In fact, I think it would be a nice and valid card if Frost had access to ranged anti-M. Maybe not for pvp, but it would at least allow people in (r)pve to have some diversity (not saying a ranged anti-m is needed. On the contrary, I think it would be harmful for T1 balance if that had been that case lol).
 

[Daily Card Discussion]

I am no expert on pure Nature, but like Lagops I always got the impression that Energy Parasite was more used to abuse its mind control ability, rather than being used as an m-counter. Which is a shame since it could somewhat mitigate nature's lack of ranged anti-M with better stats. However, since its mind control already is so strong, buffing its stats would only make it over the top good.

I wonder, if the unit lost its mind control power and its health increased to 500 could it be used as a viable ranged anti-m and potentially solve natures ranged anti-m issue?

In any case, it would be good if units that where taken over would still bind power but implementing that would probably be a technical issue. So, limiting it to 2 units per charge sounds reasonable if we can't have the bound power thing.

 

But from the perspective of a pure nature player, it is pretty much a must have, since... well, what do you have else besides Deep One?
 

[Daily Card Discussion]

Another useless card... basically this card is the product of 2 other bad cards having a comparably bad card as baby. Those cards are Lost Wanderer and Bandit Sorceress.

We already covered Lost Wanderer and the reasons why Wanderer is not a valid card also applies to Lost Priest. The buff does not justify the power cost and the overall stats are justs too bad.

And not only does Lost Priest have bad stats to begin with, it actually also deals less damage than stated (sigh, why did you give so many units wrong damage values, Phenomic? -.-'). So, rather than having 560 ATK, it only deals an abysmal amount of 466 (which is why I compare this unit to Bandit Sorceress).

 

After reviewing so many cards, it becomes evident that Lost Priest suffers from the same bad design decisions most of the other cards do:

• Too bad stats for too high money
• The ability is "nice to have" at best
• It is outperformed by another core card. This time it is the M/M Nichtcrawler.

I guess we should think of a name for a category for cards who have those flaws xD

And even IF those points would not matter, I still think it will be outperformed by Stormsinger in most situations.
Because who can say no to a free gravity surge?

[Daily Card Discussion]

1 hour ago, Treim said:

On the other hand: What struggles with rPVE lvl 9? You can do it with t3 only or Tempest's and Rifle Cultists only and not having any issues.... so i guess we should get away of taking lvl 9 as a standard, cuz you can do that with pretty much any deck that has some t4

I just didn't want to sound like you should never use this unit under any circumstances. The card might not be very good, but there are far more terrible cards in the game.

37 minutes ago, SunWu II. said:

Here's something that crossed my mind: I think it's not really accurate to compare damage-over-time units like thunder wagon and melee units like bloodhorn statwise. I'm not talking about the advantages a range attack has (wich aren't too many in rPVE) but that annoying moment when your bloodhorn/abnomination/any melee XL takes a last stomp/swing to finish of a unit with only a few HPs left. That sounds like it wouldnt add up to much, but if you send in melee XLs only that's many thousand damage points wasted per base. You're right, though, fire wagon isn't really strong. It's mostly loud and fun.

You are right, but if we really examine this more closely, Bloodhorn has even more damage than stated.

A great example why this is the case is to look at ranged units. Assuming we have a unit that deals 200 damage with a rate of fire over 20 seconds, we have 1000 ATK (200 / 4 * 20 = 1000). But that is actually not the whole truth. It would be correct if this unit had a charge-up delay of 4 seconds before shooting, but as it is ranged units start shooting as soon as they get in range.

In other words, they already deal 200 damage at time 0.
So we get: 0s = 200 dmg, 4s = 400 dmg, 8s = 600 dm

g, 12s = 800 dmg, 16s = 1000, 20s = 1200

And for melee units it is just the same.

So, the shorter the rate of fire is, the less a unit has of this "hidden damage", which plays part in fighting as well.

 

Assuming, this ranged unit with 200 damage attacks a different unit with 1 HP left. Of course, this will be an overkill of 199. But don't forget that they get "free" damage to begin with. Therefore in a realistic scenario units dealing continuous damage are equal to units dealing "spiky" damage at best.

Now, of course we could think of situations where the flamethrower is stronger. Like when fighting units of 50 health, the flamethrower would dominate and kill hordes, while the Bloodhorn struggles... but when does that ever happen?

Just wanted to point that out, most people don't know that you can't just translate the damage from one rate of fire to another that easily.
 

[Daily Card Discussion]

25 minutes ago, Treim said:

Never had that card sadly. I generally saw that one paired with Fire Dragons though not many people used it. Can't really judge to hard about that one tbh.

Yeah, I don't recall many people playing with pure fire and I think fire without good splash support just isn't that great in T4. It has some good cards, like Fire Sphere, Fire explosion and Batariel but in pve you just won't achieve much if you can't keep up a consistent army. Nature has heals to help you in the macro game, shadow can just offer units to summon new ones and frost splashes are hard to kill in the first place.

And while Batariel is arguable the best fire creature in T4, you can summon him with Enlightenment and buff/heal the crap out of him.

Even when just going 3 colours Frost, Shadow and even Nature have much more to cover their weaknesses. Irconclad is a good XL/XL unit and Shatter Ice is really devastating. Shadow offers charged Death Rays (8000 ATK) and has great utility options with Offering, Rifle Cultists and Unholy Hero. Even Colossus gives Nature an edge to an already strong deck due to all kinds of CC and heals.

But with Fire, most fire T4 cards just don't bring enough stats. They deal a lot of damage, but health is a thing too (after all HP * ATK = total power of a unit).

Thunder Wagon is no exception. Despite costing 260, the stats of Thunder Wagon doesn't even come close to a Bloodhorn (4700 / 5000 for 240) and the abilities are a bad joke. If anything, it should have siege by default and "Tainted Death" does too little damage for a faction that needs its units alive as long as possible (in regard to their low estimated live span).

 

In a nutshell: Thunder Wagon is not a good card. It's fun and okay but does not bring enough power to make F/F/F/N being able to compete with other colour combinations.

It has too bad stats, costs too much power and its abilities are abysmal. I grant that the ability lets you have a fast unit in T4 is nice to have, but there the positive aspects of the card end.

 

Still, if you only do rpve 9 you won't have big issues with clearing the map in time anyway but do not expect to have an easy life if you happen to get Lost Souls as enemies. I'd rather get one shadow orb and take Bloodhorn instead.

 

My suggestions would be: Lower cost to 240 and give both affinities siege (one affinity having 50% siege and the other one having 100%). The affinity with 50% siege should keep its "Tainted Death" ability but deal far more damage (at least 2000 per target if not 2500). In any case, increase health to 5000 so the unit actually has some decent stats too.
 

[Daily Card Discussion]

2 hours ago, Ultrakool said:

the signature lame card of Stonekin. So I would probably rate it 11/10

Absolutely.

The unit might not appear very strong at the first glance, but it is far too gimmicky. Especially for a macro-driven faction just like Stonekin.

Stonekin has always been a strong faction but lacked assets in several areas, however that was fine because the faction had strengths in other areas to compensate for that.

But if we look at Razorshard...

Stonekin used not to have anti-S units and the faction was fine. Razorshard provides you with anti-S.
Stonekin used not to have artillery units and that was fine. Razorshard has a long range ability.
Stonekin used not to have fast units and that was fine. Razorshard is a swift unit.
Stonekin used ot have Stone Tempests for medium knockback... now you can also do it with Razorshard.

Also, from what I remember the unit is bugged and has a rate of fire of 4 seconds, rather than 5 seconds. This gives Razorshard effective stats of 1050 / 705 (due to 15% protection). The unit is a no-brainer and its low costs mean that you can spam long range M knockback.

Also, the comparison with Firestalker is unfair as Firestalker does LESS damage in siege mode. One would think that the same should apply to Razorshard.

My suggestions: replace M-knockback with something else, bring damage to a reasonable level, increase base stats and let it only be swift near friendly structures.
 

[Daily Card Discussion]

1 hour ago, Loptous said:

Not much I can say here, this card just isn't so good. Only air defense, when there are plenty of towers that can be both air and ground. So I do not know the true value of this card, please enlighten me about it more.

Until then 3.1/10 only good for air

One sentence would be enough to tell you everything about this card: "You know a card is downright terrible if it is outperformed by a card that is one tier lower".

This card is called Blaster Cannon. But not only is this due to the fact that Blaster Cannon has Rage, is cheaper and can already be built at T1 but Blaster Cannon actually does more damage than it is stated on the card whereas Skydefender does considerably less damage than stated.

 

 

To make things clear: Yes, AA only tower cards are absolutely useless for pvp and rpve. But I found them useful on several occasions in normal pve as quite frequently some air units will come on fixed routes and with a Blaster Cannon you have an easy way to deal with them. And the same should apply to Skydefender... only that it is inferior to Blaster Cannon.

My main deck was always Bandits and I did try it on occasions, but the damage output is insignificant, life steal on a low damage card is a bad joke and the abilities are just bad.

Solution: Make this card cost 60 power, fix the attack of this card so it does the stated damage and turn the ability in something useful. Like slowing units down, decrease their attack or a apply a damage over time.

 

This card has a niche and at least let it be good at it. Bandits already have 2 other towers, if you want a tower that covers air and ground, go for those (of course Bandit Launcher deserves a buff too). There is no need to give this card anti ground capabilities and it would be stupid let it attack air.

We could also just make it cheaper, increase stats only slightly but give it rapid construction instead. I think that would be a fun way you could make this card useful. Either way, this card needs better abilities. Both abilities are only worth it in pvp and NOBODY with a sane mind will EVER play this card in pvp. It's like purple Abomination -.-'.
 

[Daily Card Discussion]

54 minutes ago, Loptous said:

Absolutely no one? I am stunned lol

Sorry, I am no Frost player and can only provide theoretical advise 

In general: Unless S melee units have a really good ability in T2, it's just bad.

1: Everything can knock the unit back... and if it cannot be knocked back, creatures will just ran past it.
2: There are some really brutal hard counters like Darkelf Assassins
3: root makes them useless

So in a way, much of what has been said about Werebeasts can also said about Phalanx. And if you want an L counter, pick Defenders who are cheaper, have equal damage and most of all: are ranged.

The stats are actually good, but there are just too many ways to deal with this unit.

And really, what target is it even supposed to kill!? All T2 L units outclass this unit very badly and in a realistic scenario you will hardly find an opportunity to actually get them to the fight.

But I cannot even think of an attack modifier that would make sense for this unit. Frost has was to deal with M already and they just cannot compete with Lyrish Knights to be made XL. And I cannot think that a T2 S/S would be exciting either...

Well, maybe they really should be M/S, but cheaper with less healt and steadfast by default? Not saying that would make the unit good, but I think it would be a great improvement as it is made viable against more targets and less prone to CC. And that's really the best thing I can think of to at least give them a some kind purpose. Or maybe let them slow down their targets... or really, anything.

 

There was a time when Shadow/Frost actually made heavy use of them before Lost Reaver was released since their health/cost ratio is so high and I really cannot think of anything else you would like to do than blowing them up. But actually getting them to detonate in range tricky as well due to already mentioned reasons. So they did have their short time of (in)fame.

 

[Daily Card Discussion]

It looks to be more on the Feline side more than the Canine side

Yes it does appear more like a Tiger but if you look closely you'll notice that it is no (admittedly, huge) cat.

Unlike dogs, cats have the ability to retract their claws which gives them several advantages (and the main reason why this biological model is so successful). It allows them to move more with more stealth, as hard claws will make more noise compared to the soft paws. Also, due to the fact that the claws are only used when needed they are kept sharp. So, technically speaking, cats are better dogs

Pictures/screenshots featuring Forest Elder always show him with his claws. Therefore, it is some kind of dog .

[Daily Card Discussion]

It's a unit that works better at paper than in a real deck. I got to play around with it when I started the game but that's it. The biggest problem of Werebeasts is not that their stats are bad for a 75 power units, that S-units can have severe drawbacks or that their regeneration is useless. 

The biggest issue with Werebeasts are Windweavers. Besides normal pve I really don't see a reason why you would choose them as your starting swift unit. As for pvp you take Swiftclaw/Amazon for obvious reasons and in rpve you just don't need a swift T1 unit.

I would have loved to use Werebeasts in the rare occasions I played nature, but they are too niche and you just can't play nature T1 without Windweavers. Okay, you could use Treespirits too, but those are even stronger than WW if you know what you are doing, so that's no argument.

To round this up:

• Stats: Not terrible on U0, since 600/600 is okayish for 75 power... but 600/600 for U3? No, thank you.
• The regeneration is... nice? You already have so many heal possibilities in nature, the 11HP/s on U3 is totally negligible. You need about a minute to actually heal them up totally and that's about as good as letting units stand near a well/orb.
• Being a melee S unit means: getting rooted, hurricaned and facing strong T1 S-counters
• Windweavers are about as strong as Werebeasts but can hit air... and you wil need to kill air units.

Once I thought that a Green Amazon + Werebeast combination would be fun, as you could really capitalize on the passive regeneration ability of the Werebeasts... but you will waste 2 slots for something that is hardly better than any other nature opening and since you can't attack air targets that would leave you with a massive weakness.

Really, you can see it any way you want but at the end of the day they are just not worth it. Now, Werebeasts could be interesting if they'd cost about 60 or 65 power and have their heal increased so it actually makes a difference, but unless you give them anything that could make them able to compete with other nature card, just about everything speaks against using them.

 

4/10. It's not very bad, just very outclassed.

[Daily Card Discussion]

My words are at a lost for this card, for I have never used it. 

I cannot find a particular use for this card other than it's transformation skill, which in this case requires 0 power.

I cannot test to see how it would work in game because, obviously it is not out yet, but until then enlighten me upon this card

Yeah, there is really not a lot to talk about this card. I did try it a few times but the fact that it's flying and knocks back S creatures don't make up for the very poor stats.

Even at 50 power this unit would still not be worth it as it would still die to anything that can look at it.

At best, this unit can work as an anti-S supporter due it its perma knockback. But in any case you'll need another unit to finish them off.

In theory, I could see a second S-counter for Fire/Nature as a nice addition. Scythe Fiends are far from being bad, but it would be fun trying out how a different anti-S would work out. Also, Scythe Fiends are expensive and I don't want to use 100 power every time I have to deal with small creatures...

But this is more about pve than it is pvp.

I think 60 power for 670 ATK / 500 HP would be justified in that regard.

Other than that, I really can't think of anything else.

 

Also, may I suggest some kind of index at the front page of this thread with all cards that have been discussed?

After all, the main idea behind this was to have some sort of catalog to talk about specific cards, but it has gotten quite hard to find particular cards now. Also, it would be easier to check which cards were already discussed to avoid having multiple cards.

Edit: Apparently I was too slow

 

[Daily Card Discussion]

SOO MUCH TEXT

Oh my, and I thought I make long posts

Didn't feel like looking further for a different one, cause like I said, it's viable, but not used that much, I'd probably not use it simply because of not having the room for it in my deck. 

And btw, for those who don't know, you can decide who Wanderer casts the shield on with the same way you decide who shaman targets with it's heals, so it's not random at all.

I agree with Hiroo that pretty much every card would have won by now. He even could have played Lost Dancers or Lost Shades at that point and it wouldn't have made a difference.

Also, this video could give the impression that lost Priest is actually a good card... it's terrible.

At least Lost Wanderer is not bad per se. He does a lot of things, but he does not do anything well. And for that you pay a premium price.

LS being a shadow splash, they already have NC, a far superior M-counter. The shield does not make a big difference because Lost has high health to begin with. It's a poor man's Area Ice Shield which provides less shields and what is even worse, binds power. And the passive ability is is nice to have at best, too?

 

None of his abilities are good enough to change the gameplay of lost decisively. If you want to make it REALLY viable, I'd either suggest turning it into a "Shield Shaman" or "Lost Crystal Fiend" type of unit and get rid of the passive ability.

Or you really crank up the passive ability to something useful. Maybe something like 40% more damage to frozen units? Or the Wanderer dealing 75% more damage to frozen units?

Or maybe add a buff to the shield, so it also provides useful extras like shield penetration, more attack, slow health regen.

Or you could make that Revenants last 50% longer in his presence.

 

There are really cool things you could make with this unit that gives LS more than the usual shadow + repair lame feeling.

[Daily Card Discussion]

Hi i would like to hear your opinions on this card http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/battleforge/images/1/1d/Tainted_Willzapper-0.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20120128174633
(I do not figure out how to input picture sry :\)
My opinion : I used this card only few times in 2v2 pvp with my friend (as ally) , in sort of Fun games
We was doing it like when enemy well was being destroyed i builded two of these there  and non willzapper was destroyed then we have huge power advantage
Im asking just if anyone else do that at least once and how it ended
 

You can make pictures by using the "Insert other media" button. It is located right under the left lower corner of the text box.

And wow, you actually managed to do something with this card? Very nice. I know that was not high ranked, but still.

For me this card was always nothing more than a running gag. A terrible example how not to make a card.

So, no I never really used it but only ever saw it as a waste of slots. It does sound fun in theory... but first you actually need to build up the structure where your enemy can summon units easily. 70 power in T2 is nothing to sneeze at and on top of it, activating the structure costs power and works only for a limited amount of time.

And if I understand correctly, you need to have ground presence to build this structure... uh.

That's just too dicey for my taste. I could potentially see this card working in a less slot intense deck like Fire, but Fire/Nature already does not have a lot of room for "premium cards".

Of course, IFF you can make it to the point to activate it, I guess it's worth it. And if I read it correctly only the void energy but not the normal power well refund is redirected into the voidnet? Again, very dicey.

Normally I try to figure out how to make such a card viable and fun to use, but I also see a lot of toxic optential that could disrupt the whole gameplay. There are too many cards that mess with power refund already and I would actually like to see such cards being decreased in use and not increased. After a ton of tweaking you could potentially come up with a balanced card, but so much time and effort are better inveted into balancing other key cards.

 

Still, you broadened my horizon by telling us that you managed to make it work at least once

[Daily Card Discussion]

So this card, I think is the only card with the highest base stat line without any buffs. 

Also I found this very interesting on his Page on the Battleforge Wiki.... 

Card Upgrade	Type or Ability	Effect
Jorne I	cu da veia
Jorne II	ENFIEI O PAL EM JORNE!!
Jorne III	jOU MASE POES

What is this?

Anyways, great card for PVE especially in long and hard runs of high difficulty, giving that nice buff to Brannoc and Lord Cyrian is pretty cool.

It pretty much does what you expect from a T4 neutral card at 300 power cost. It's really not bad card and delivers quite a punch. I am not really fond of Legendary cards (unless it's Incredible Mo since you only need one one the map). It limits you to play only one card at the time and if you play with other people you always have to fear that somebody else gets to play it before you. And if that happens, you are screwed and wasted one deck slot.

I guess it's good when you do solo (r)pve maps. Still, I just think having more units on the field that are a bit less efficient than Jorne is still better than having just one very good card under your command.

Don't understand me wrong, by itself it IS a good card. And it does not only have the best T4 stats but also comes at a very reasonable price.

What makes me sad about the card that it screams for LSS abuse. Make a Jorne for ground presence and some really good XL/XL firepower and spam the f*** out of those LSS.
Of course I mean "fork" what did you read? Using Jorne + LSS is also somewhat risky, as you lose all your ground presence if you let him be killed.

Because other than that I can't really think of a serious colour combination that would need this card. Heck, even a rainbow deck can just summon normal anti XL with Bloodhorns for that matter.

Of course Stonekin T4 does not have an anti-XL but in all honesty, it really does not need one either. It would be cool to give them a unique T4 anti-XL with some neat abilities but it works perfectly without it.

The abilities are nice to have and actually can make Brannoc viable in T4... but that is more due to the fact that Brannoc is op in the first place. But that's not enough to really convince me.

 

6.5/10

It's good, but if you use this card I guess you most likely made some poor decisions regarding the overall strategy of your deck.

[Daily Card Discussion]

Nomad. A great card.

But first, why should anybody consider replacing Scavenger with Nomad? Scavenger is used in pvp because it fills 2 roles: slow and anti-s. Nomad does none of those things, it has an entirely different job. But neither could Scavenger replace Nomad in a pve scenario... (that argument goes both ways).
Also, Thugs have become the meta for Fire T1 and has become a very essential part of fire T1. Of course you take that card over Nomads (just saying).

But first, I'll talk about PvE. With the red affinity you can easily overrun enemy T1 fortification. Their damage is insane and all you need are some Sunstriders to cover air. The AA is nice to have, but far too expensive for what it does. It's a bit risky, but with some experience and micro you get a lot of value for that card.

With the 50% damage buf, it actually has by far the best stats among all Fire T1 cards when you calculate how much bang you get for buck. And it is also has the best stats among all T1 cards in general (and don't forget it's swift). The reason you don't see it often is because it has to attack in groups of 3+ so it is easily killable with splash spells like nasty and eruption.

Some people prefer the green ability because it is easier to use and gives you some good macro abilities and a lot of staying power, given that you are not overrun by a vast superiority. So, in pve it is a matter of personal taste. And since Scavenger isn't really a good pve card, Nomads are a really great swift pve asset.

Moreover, it's a very good starting card for rPvE, as well as user friendly and fun in general. I preferred using Thugs + Sunstriders, and while those are a bit more risky to use, they can give you additional resources and boost your start into T2. But that's a story for a different time

Anyway, green Nomads have unique properties for Fire T1 standards and you know what? There were top tier players who used Green Nomads to beat Frost T1. So it's far, FAR away from being a bad card. Especially in pvp. Most notably "Legend" who inveted this strategy. But this was near the end of BF.

Because Frost can't kill Nomads (or anything, really) very fast, Nomad's passive heal really starts to kick in. And unlike Shadow and Fire, Frost does not have instant damage spells that would deal splash damage.

And if Frost has a scary looking army that could kill Nomads? lol, run away.

9/10

 

Btw. is there are reason we only discuss T1 cards now?

 

Edit: Corrected some typods and changed some of the phrasings.

[Daily Card Discussion]

It's not a bad card and I liked using it for Shadow pve on occasion. Wrathblades bring good value for their points and besides Dreadcharger, it is the only anti-S T1 shadow has... which is the problem of this card. It competes with Dreadcharger. Therefore, it is irrelevant for pvp.

Actually, they are a great complement to shadow's excellent ranged anti-M capabilities, due to their counter. But the problem is that Nox and Forsaken are that strong, you don't really need another S counter. While Skeleton warriors just give you more of the anti-m you already have plenty of, they soak up so much damage that you don't need to use your counters efficiently.

What really makes Skeleton Warriors superior is that their upgrades really make them much more better than they should be on U3. On U3, their ability will lower incoming damage by 60%, so its very unlikely that you will kill them before time runs out. And Skeletons also have slightly better stats for their price if you compare both units.

 

Just to demonstrate how strong their ability is: 100 / 0,4 = 250.
So, if we would translate this buff to Wrathblades' attack increase, you would need to make them have 2,5 more damage, which would be utterly insane.

TL;DR: It's good on U0, but the ability of Skeleton Warriors is far too good ability to ignore it once you reach U3.

 

[Daily Card Discussion]

It seems, that these sentences of you decline each other. You pay for a unit, that is twice as good twice as much. But if you double your damage, your cost just increase by the factor 1.41.

Well I have always calculated

ATK*TIME/COST                                          |TIME=HP/ (ENEMYDPS)

ATK*HP/ ((ENEMYDPS)*COST)

Since you can't directly influence the DPS of your Enemy, I took that as a constant.

So you get (ATK*HP/Cost), which actually states your second statement.

Abstract Example:

Two units, unit A 1000/1000(100 Energy), and one enemy unit, B 1000/2000(200Energy). After a fix time period, A is dead (lost 100 Energy), and unit B has half of its life remaining, a 1000/1000, which is as unit A stated 100 Energy, so basicly both player got an equal good unit.

 

Now, that's really embarassing lol.

But yes, you are correct. Thank you for pointing out the error, I will correct it tomorrow.

You made me realize that my formula uses power cubed and if you write a bit differently, you get = ATK * HP / Power ^2. However, it must have linear properties.
Now that I look back I really should have seen that but in the examples I made to this it, it did seem correct.

Actually, I use a different formula for my own projects, which is ATK * SquareRoot(Power) * HP * SquareRoot(Power).

Yes, it basically is the same as your formula but it makes life easier when designing units, as you can see very fast if a unit is more of a damage dealer or tank (as you can take ATK and HP separately).

I didn't want to bother with the roots and made some tests without them and surprisingly the same results came out when I adjusted the stats. I just completely forgot to test a change in power as well... Note that I made that formula more than 2 years ago and didn't remember the details behind it anymore. So yeah, the way I approached was a bit too careless.

 

However, one thing that strikes me is why do you consider the enemy DPS? As I said, this formula is used to represent a "per unit power efficiency". Every combat related aspect should be calculated in a separate step.
And there are A LOT of things to consider. Battleforge is very easy in that matter, as BF has only little things to consider.

For example, if you want to calculate the result of a ranged vs melee unit you'd also need to consider its speed and the range of the unit. 

But if you keep it simple and give both no/equal range:

Your unit: 90 DPS / 900 HP
Enemy unit: 90 DPS / 450 HP
And for the sake of comparability they have equal power cost.

After a battle, you are left with your unit having 450 HP. I don't quite see how mixing up efficiency and individual stats would make sense.

Considering the enemy DPS without the context of battle would either mean that you cannot or dont want to attack the source of the damage. As, every other case, an enemy only has a limited health/time pool as well (if you treat health as time).

 

If you wish to continue this discussion, please make an own thread. I don't think this is the right place to discuss this thing.

[Daily Card Discussion]

how would you calculate its effectiveness? Since it only applies damage increase, 40% increase attack isn't really the same as getting 40% of another unit.... So would you say its like 20% of another unit if you split health and attack into 1:1? By that theory you need a total units cost of 200 for the card to be balance its cost right?

 

Balancing and the calculation of unit efficiency is a bit tricky. It has some pitfalls and there are a lot of common mistakes when calculating the stat/power ratio. For example you can't just make: (ATK + HP) / Power cost.

The formula (ATK + HP) / Power Cost only works if health are either equal or very close to each other. But if it is the latter, it is only an okay approximation.

What you want to do is calculate the attack efficiency and health efficiency separately and multiply both in the end.
Which is the following: (ATK / Cost) * (HP / Cost).

One might ask why so complicated? Easy answer: Because if you double the damage of a unit, you want it to be statistically twice as good as before.
I've been using this formula with much success for the last 2 years on my Command and Conquer Kane's Wrath mod: One Vision. So, be assured that this is correct, I am not going to explain the details here.

Also, in terms of raw stats it does not matter if you increase health or damage, but I am not explaining that one here either.

 

As for home soil, we have 2 scenarios. 

S1: You need to kill something as fast as quickly and it does not shoot back. Therefore, health is not relevant.
S2: You fight against other monsters and health suddenly becomes relevant, as you units only deal as long as they are alive (duh).

I am going to give an example for Master Archers (U0). But everybody should be able to replicate it with any other unit.

Stats: 300 ATK / 600 HP, 50 power cost
Also I am using homesoil U3 which increases damage by 50%.

Master Archers - Scenario one

An easy example to see that homesoil on a single MA is crap:

Normal Attack efficiency = ATK / Cost = 300 / 50 = 6
MA + Homesoil efficiency = ATK * 1,5 / Cost of both cards = 450 / 90 = 5

Accordingly we get the following results if we use it on more than 1 MA:

2 MA = 6,4
3 MA = 7,1
4 MA = 7,5
100 MA = 8,92
1000 MA = 8,99
Infinite MA = 9 (just for fun)

Therefore we conclude that if we only want attack, it's already worth to play Homesoil after 2 MA. However, that only works in defense, as in offense you will need to summon an extra Ice Barrier and consider the extra 20 power as well.

Naturally, this excels more on units which have more attack to begin with. Among all frost units, Ice Guardian has the best attack efficiency with a value of 10.
Am I saying you should be spamming Ice Guardians + Ice Barrier + Homesoil to get a well down? No, of course not as he will react and summon own units, resulting in scenario 2.

Btw. if you attack with a counter, it also deals an additional 50% more damage to the target. Therefore, if the enemy player would spam an equal number of Dreadchargers he has the same buff (50%) but did not spend 40 power, gaining an advantage.

Master Archers - Scenario two

During fights with other units, health can easily be seen as "lifetime" that slowly runs out (due to enemies dealing damage to it). The more health a unit has, the longer it can deal damage.
There is not more to say about that

We remember, MA atk efficiency = 6.
Now, we also calculate their HP efficiency = 600 / 50 = 12
MA overall efficiency = 6 * 12 = 72

For comparison, we use HS on one MA again.
Using the values from above, this leaves us with: (300 / (50 + 40)) * (600 / ( 50 + 40 )) = 5 * 6,666 = 33,333

As you see, this is drastically worse. But after all, this is the expected result.

2 MA = 55
3 MA = 67
4 MA = 75 (this is where it starts to be worth it)
5 MA = 80
100 MA = 106,3
1000 MA = 107,8
infinite MA = 108 (just for fun)

As you can see, it excels once you have 4 MAs deployed.

You can do this for any kind of unit composition. It might get a bit messy if you include multiple units and if you place it with Ice Barrier you need to consider the extra 20 power cost as well. And due to the nature of buffs, it can be countered with CC.

I think as a rule of thumb, it is recommended to use homesoil on 4+ units if you defend (and are in scenario 2). But the more expensive your units are, the less are required to make it power efficient. As an example, 3 Lightblades + Homesoil are more efficient in that matter.

However, if you only attack and want to bring down a well as fast as possible it already excels with 2 units. For that matter, 2 Burrowers with Homesoil and Ice Barrier are in fact better than attacking with 3 Burrowers.

 

This is a pure mathematical approach that has its weakness when it comes to unit counters, range, abilities etc. So you still need common sense and as I already mentioned, this is only a rule of thumb.

I also advice players who play frost (splashes) to check their most favourite units with this formula and see when it is worth to play HS.

 

 

[Daily Card Discussion]

Now this card at least from what I have seen, is one of the most used cards in any deck that consists of frost. Unless someone happens to go more early game nature cards for a stonekin deck. I find this card very good against Ravage, another early game card that is used in most fire PVP decks. Combining this with the ice barrier is a pretty sweet combo and can ensure many victories. This even has some relative use late-game, since the attack buff is not a fixed amount, rather 40% attack.

I find this card very good, and I am sure most of you would think the same way 

Such a good card, but so little to say about it. It's pretty central for Frost and can be used very effectively in later tiers too and the combo with Ice Barrier rocks too
It pretty much does what it says on the tin.

Might you elaborate how this card is good against Ravage? Or is it just the fact that you can outdamage the healing ability?

[Daily Card Discussion]

That are some interesting ideas Treim that actually sounds like they could work. Now that I come to think about it, you could actually find a use in a fire/frost deck focused around towers like Morklay Trap or Thermite Hill.

Still, I feel like what could be said pretty much has already be said, so maybe we could talk if there would be a nice tweak to the card to make it a more valid choice? We pretty much established that the card limits itself too much to "faster build up time, with some extras", but what if it could rather promote building structures in the first place?

The problem with structures is that they bind so much power, so what if the card had another ability which would allow 30% of the power cost (or more/less) flow directly into the void? I think this would make buildings structures more interesting without promoting too much cheese.

However, I still think it needs to be brought down to only one frost orb, as otherwise your range of possible structures is far too limited.

 

I think it could open some interesting possibilities when it comes to setting up defenses for your base, or just build up some Twilight Bombards for some serious long range damage. You might even want to drop the faster build time for that since that is covered by Kobold Inc already.

Opinions?

[Daily Card Discussion]

This time I just chose a completely random card:

Tainted Construction: Creates a productive aura that reduces the necessary construction time of friendly buildings placed within a 20m radius by 25%. Additionally, every enemy unit within it will be weakened and deal 30% less damage against structures. Lasts for 20 seconds. Reusable every 30 seconds.

Blessed Construction: Creates a productive aura that reduces the necessary construction time of friendly buildings placed within a 20m radius by 25%. Additionally, every friendly building within it will be constantly repaired and restores 20 life points per second. Lasts for 20 seconds. Reusable every 30 seconds.

On U3 it has 90 power cost and speeds up construction time by 45%.

 

I can't say much about this card and I can't think of a structure heavy strategy that would really benefit from this card... but I also never played Frost.

On the one side I can imagine this card having some interesting potential but on the other side you probably won't use it in T3. And on T4 you have Kobol Inc. which allows for instant construction.

What are your opinions on this card and does anybody have some experience with it?
Hit or miss?

[Daily Card Discussion]

I should've corrected some of the stuff i was saying.

Indeed no t4 card is every relevant in pvp but some cases when you can get out a t4 like for fun games or you've some very cheesy strategy to get into t4, abominations aren't really the first choice in that case.

And indeed not a single card is able to do anything without support , i should've said that they are somewhat more reliant on support than some other cards like the grinder ánd overlords who can heal themselfs or the lost spirit ships who can clear out some of the smaller camps without much assistance.

Abomination already isn't a good choice for cheese because it requires 2 fire and 2 nature orbs, I hardly recall any cheese you could possibly make with those colours. The cheese strategies I am aware off include at least one shadow orb and are more of a "mix and match" thing. You can't really argue against the card in that way.

You also need to keep in mind the context of the card. Of course it won't do everything on it's own... but actually you do have excellent nature and fire cards at your disposal, so support really is no issue. I even think that the good support capabilities are only a further plus that speaks for taking this unit.

Cast Twilight Pestilence + Regrowth + Healing Gardens on an Abomination and the enemy will NEVER ever kill it (of course, unless a nasty debuffs affect the unit).

And on top you get some really potent card like Shrine of War or Cluster Explosion or Earth Shaker that you can mix in.

[Daily Card Discussion]

Soo... what about Abomination?

Tainted Fury: Activate to release a furious roar that deals 840 damage to enemies within a 25m radius around the unit, up to 2520 in total. Every hostile unit within that area will be stunned and unable to follow the player's commands for 15 seconds. Reusable every 30 secons.
Power: 120

Blessed Fury: Activate to release a furious roar that deals 840 damage to enemies within a 25m radius around the unit, up to 2520 in total. Every hostile unit within that area will be stunned and unable to fight in close-combat for 15 seconds. Reusable every 30 secons.
Power: 120

Wow, what a beast. You pretty much get the best bang for your buck (6700 / 5550 on U3 for mere 220 power) out of the house. I am really surprised that back in the day, I only saw relatively few Abominations being played, especially since Twilight is a very good and user friendly colour in the whole game.

 

The range of the ability is a bit too smal for my taste, but still it is a definite must have in a Twilight rpve deck, not only because it is such a good card, but also because it's the only T4 XL/XL Twilight has.

What are your experiences and opinions with/on this card?