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Pure Nature 2.0 - Main Thread


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As we announced in our recent Nature Deep Dive, our faction design team has been working on performing a balance pass on Nature cards. Some of these changes are relatively minor, while other changes are more substantial. This thread will function as the main thread for all Nature based discussion. Minor changes are included here, while major changes have their own threads linked to below. Please note that all changes proposed here are provisional and as such are subject to change. 

Substantial Reworks and Balance Changes

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The following cards/topics have significant enough changes to warrant their own threads.

Minor Changes

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Tier 1:

Fountain of Rebirth: 
1. Healing: Regenerate 15 / 18 / 21 / 25 life points --> 20 / 23 / 26 / 30 life points every 3 seconds

Treespirit: 
1. Reduce power cost: 60p --> 50p
2. Reduce Gifted/Tainted Thorns damage: 100 up to 150 damage total --> 78 up to 117 damage total
3. Reduce life points: 880 health --> 730 health 
4. Green Affinity: Fix poison bug, increasing total poison ticks from 4 --> 5.

Tier 2: 

Healing Well: 
1. Initial Capacity: 0 --> 1500 (50%) healing capacity
2. Recharge Rate: 20/sec --> 50/sec

Sunken Temple:
1. Orb cost: 2 Nature --> 1 Nature, 1 Neutral

Spikeroot:
1. Power cost: 120p --> 110p

Parasite: 
1. Orb cost: 1 Nature, 1 Neutral --> 2 Nature
2. Reduce power cost: 100 --> 80
3. Increase Damage:  60 / 60 / 60 / 66 per second --> 70/70/70/80 per second
4. Increase max targets: 4/5/6/6 --> 8/9/10/10

Tier 3: 

Promise of Life: 
1. Reduce Tier: 3 Nature, 1 Neutral --> 3 Nature 

Thornbark: 
1. New Passive, "Strong Supporter" - Unit counts as 3 connected entities for the sake of determining root network supports while out of combat. 

Wheel of Gifts: 
1. Change effect to aura to allow it to reapply if disenchanted. 

Tier 4: 

Lifestream: 
1. Life Link:
   A. Absorption limit: 10000 --> 20000 damage
   B. Duration: 35 seconds --> infinite (until 20000 damage has been absorbed)
   C. Range: 200m --> 300m

Noxious Cloud: 
1. Changes Pending

 

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Let's start with the good:

  • Forest elder, primeval watcher, abyssal warder, and shrine of memory are mostly all solid changes. 
  • healing well changes are all around great

The questionable:

  • abyssal warders requirement for 3 smaller golems to reassemble is clunky as best. Promise of life also ends up being rather meh in nature and building warder around it just seems like a nerf to its potential just to provide a place for pol at the detriment of warder.
  • wouldve liked to see a bit more come out of forest elder buffs due to its extreme cost and rather lackluster combat performance. Green still has excessive overlap with wheels and shadows passive will be underwhelming vs bosses. I'd like to see shadows passive work on poisoned units as well. 
  • im not a huge fan of the targetable watcher ability as this will make it a lot slower to use, especially in groups. it wouldve been nice to have the aoe increased instead.
  • parasite seems all around kind of odd. the deep dive says t2 struggles vs flying but with the strength of windweavers it will be very hard to justify an entire slot just for a spell that doesnt look like it will scale much if at all into t3, idk maybe this is mostly for pvp.
  • lifestream stills seems pretty meh. i dont remember for sure off hand but doesnt it not stack with revenge? in any case i dont rlly c being able to fit it in a deck with so many useful cards nature has to offer.

The bad:

  • root network is not great overall. Tree spirits are being nerfed to unusability, living towers are still left to underperform, howling will still be mediocre at best as ive already described in my post when we last discussed it. 
  • spore launcher changes are wholly insufficient. Slow removal is ok i guess but inability to hit air means it still wont be practically viable at t4 vs enemy encampments with air units. If we compare to moloch strat we can see moloch is still viable since fire has so many easy access damage spells but nature would have to either crutch one of the t4 ranged units (none of which are root units so there goes viability of thematics if thats what youre aiming for) or blow mind control. Especially against lost dragons who disable mode change even with bene mo buff, not being able to hit air will be a huge detriment to their viability as an offensive unit (especially considering all the tedium of maintaining their support network as they move around).
  • mind control will not be reliable to counter buildings. I think the changes to it are nice overall but framing it as a counter to structures is simply not reasonable. Between random enemy units and random positions in relation to enemy structures as well as potential damage incurred and costs associated with mitigating damage to the mc unit so it can survive long enough to destroy the target as well as the costs from the mc spell itself just makes this entire strategy look extremely flimsy. I think at a minimum the cc immunity needs to last 15 seconds, if you mc a melee xl and even if it just has to turn through a few enemies and position next to a structure it is already near it can still take 5+ seconds and chance are it will have to hit at least twice. Not to mention if the mc target doesnt happen to be directly next to the priority structure. 
  • dont waste dev resources on grove spirit changes. having to micro an L unit especially when one of the main unit comps in 3+nature will be xl swift will just feel bad. The 4 orb nature spell option to counter zappers seems like the best direction. green tide sounds interesting but i feel like it would just cause headaches for balancing (think infect 2.0), pricing (also infect 2.0), and  healing (all the trash units will eat up the heals meant for real units).

Unresolved:

  • Forest elder heal does less if you use more than one at the same time. I brought this up quite a while back but cant find the post on here or discord and didnt save my excel sheet but if you have 2 or more elders and they use their healing at the same time it will actually end up healing less than a single elder although if i remember correctly it gets slightly increased as you have more elders so i think there might be a point at which numerous elders can match or exceed a single elder but it was very unrealistic. Please see if this could be fixed or offset.
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As long as most of changes are nice - im not a fan of nerfing the treespirit. Current PvE is already too much about Windweavers..,. and too less about anything else 😛 option of slightly cheaper buff to Spikeroot on t2 isn't worth it.

And parasite still won't kill healed flyer 😛 Maybe lets second Spirithunters block heal instead of ignoring shields?

Edited by Draconnor
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>>New Primeval watcher changes will not work.

The buff is not significant enough to address the slow turtle waddling ground movement and overall unfixed mechanical problems from rpve and campaign silence and ranged attack debuff trolling to then shove it from 2 green orbs req (okay territory) to >>>trash tier<<< 3 green orb requirement.

 

Adding more paralysis capability won't do any good here, that won't solve the problems, if anything the current Watchers already paralyze what they can too well. (melee XL, melee trash spam etc) and combos well with Warp + Mo statue *white protection mode.

 

>Parasite spell change is too weak to justify pure 2 green. The card as a whole kills too slow, t1 pve ai healing

is too strong and counters it. A few extra damage won't help, so increasing orb req definitely won't help here.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Rest of changes are okay or need testing.

 

 

Edited by chickennoodler
changed my mind
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  • 1 month later...
  • 4 weeks later...

I've been trying pure nature on rPVE, and minus the multiple trainwrecks that come from willzappers, I've noticed a problem with pure nature that doesn't happen with pure fire/shadow/frost: Enlightenment to summon the 4 orb card. The downside of using enlightenment to summon pure cards as opposed to going pure 4 orbs is that it isn't practical for building an army or for using spells. You don't really gain anything from building an army of Forest Elders, so why should I bother going 4 nature orbs when I can go 2 nature orbs, use enlightenment to summon a forest elder, then use the other two splashes to support with other factions. Unlike other factions, Nature doesn't have a 4 orb card that can justify going full nature rather than just using enlightenment to summon forest elder. Yes, using enlightenment would require an additional deck slot, but I'm not sure if pure nature has that problem.

4 fire orbs can build an army of Batariels and Molochs, while still having access to fire dragon and fire sphere. 4 shadow orbs can build an army of Shadow Worms, while still having access to death rays and plague. While building an army of Dreadnoughts isn't much better than building an army of forest elders, 4 frost orbs gives access to two different kinds of coat of protection, while still giving access to ironclad and shatter ice. So, in any of those cases, going enlightenment to summon the 4 orb pure cards doesn't necessarily justify using it over building the 4 orbs.

Things that utilize three nature orbs like mind control and colossus doesn't solve this problem, because then I build three nature orbs, enlightenment a forest elder, then use the last orb to give me access to earthshaker or matter mastery.

The reason I can see going 4 nature orbs in rPvE without enlightenment is to play a heavy micro-support where you do build an army of forest elders, but instead of going off on your own, you have each forest elder follow a different player. Which is fine, but the success will heavily be dependent on the competence of the other random player. Also having a forest elder follow a batariel-solo player doesn't benefit them much other than using the healing ability because i'm not sure if the green forest elder's buff ability stacks with unholy hero.

I think nature will need a new 4-orb spell in order to bypass this problem, preferably one that can deal with buildings.

Edited by Sopwith
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@Sopwith So I played pure Nature because of Force of Nature / Promo Mana Wing achievement and I am totally confused by what you are saying about Enlightenment. I had avoided Enlightenment for the Convoy cPvE event that we had (I had enough BFP saved up for it for a while already) but that was pretty much the only instance where I felt I "had" to use Enlightenment (it probably could had been done it with a proper 2 player full Nature with one using the charges for heal and other for freeze).

 

The paper "advantage" of having T4 access at T3 appear to be powerful but really you pretty much need the same power as if you had built 4th orb (ok maybe 40 power less). You actually need more power in long run due to 10% void power lost each time.

 

All you said is exactly why I think Enlightenment is like 99% of the time not meant for pure Nature but a mixed color deck.

 

 

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Achievements aside, I'm not saying to use enlightenment in pure nature. I'm asking why should I play 4-orbs of nature instead of playing 2 or 3 orbs of nature with the rest being splash, and using enlightenment for making forest elder? Enlightenment is good at getting a single unit (ie batariel), but it is not practical for repeated use (ie an army of batariel or using coat of protection). The advantage that 4-orbs of nature has over 2 or 3 orbs of nature + splash + enlightenment forest elder is that with 4-orbs of nature, you can build an army of forest elder more practically than if you tried to enlightenment out an army of forest elder. But forest elder's abilities don't stack, so building an army of them isn't much better than building an army of colossus or grimvines.

 

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Hello Sopwith,

We appreciate the constructive feedback and we agree with you on this topic. Forest Elder is intended to be a facilitator unit, even more so than Dreadnought (which is actually strong enough to be spammed due to Shattering Blow). We plan on adding a Pure Nature T4 pay-off spell similar to how we added Coat of Protection to Pure Frost, alongside major buffs to cards like Mind Control and Colossus.

We mentioned this new spell in our recent Deep Dive in the design of the Pure Nature faction, which you can read here: Pure Nature Deep Dive

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I don't think it make sense to compare an Enlightenment deck to other decks because that is simply too broken for everything but be at the power level. It takes a while but Offering + Enlightenment + other T3 spells (for example Frenetic Assault etc) is viable. All in all, talking about Enlightenment is a distraction and has nothing really to do with pure Nature (except it being a Nature card/spell).

 

Back to pure Nature discussion, the only reason why I went with Nature for 3rd and 4th orb was simply for achievement and I didn't really use anything that really needed more than 2 Nature orbs. I definitely don't feel like Abyssal Warder/Promise of Life or Colossus/Mind Control/Forest Elder (stuff that requires more than 2 Nature orbs that I can remember considering) provides enough additional benefit over going splash (even without having to bring up Enlightenment -- for example just my limited knowledge of other options for dealing with Willzapper: Suppression/Comet/Frenetic Assault/World Breaker Gun/Matter Mastery/Stampede with Juggernaut/Bloodhorn etc and yeah with pure Nature Willzapper was painful and I could mainly just spam units and worst was having to deal with Willzapper on T2 but I suppose I might been able to use Mana Wing in some of those instances looking back).

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Nature is in an unique situation because with Enlightenment it can bring out its apex cards without actually having to commit to the color restrictions those ought to force. So it has to have a peak card to make it worthwhile to commit to this restriction but at the same time it shouldn't make sense for the card to be Enlightened. Something that you can only fully utilize when actually committing to pure Nature.

Past flavor, all the pure factions need reasons to actually build 4 orbs of the same color. For Nature, because of Enlightenment you only need 2 to enjoy the most alluring benefits right now.

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  • WindHunter unpinned this topic
  • 3 months later...
On 4/3/2022 at 5:58 PM, JarodDempsey said:

Let's start with the good:

  • Forest elder, primeval watcher, abyssal warder, and shrine of memory are mostly all solid changes. 
  • healing well changes are all around great

The questionable:

  • abyssal warders requirement for 3 smaller golems to reassemble is clunky as best. Promise of life also ends up being rather meh in nature and building warder around it just seems like a nerf to its potential just to provide a place for pol at the detriment of warder.
  • wouldve liked to see a bit more come out of forest elder buffs due to its extreme cost and rather lackluster combat performance. Green still has excessive overlap with wheels and shadows passive will be underwhelming vs bosses. I'd like to see shadows passive work on poisoned units as well. 
  • im not a huge fan of the targetable watcher ability as this will make it a lot slower to use, especially in groups. it wouldve been nice to have the aoe increased instead.
  • parasite seems all around kind of odd. the deep dive says t2 struggles vs flying but with the strength of windweavers it will be very hard to justify an entire slot just for a spell that doesnt look like it will scale much if at all into t3, idk maybe this is mostly for pvp.
  • lifestream stills seems pretty meh. i dont remember for sure off hand but doesnt it not stack with revenge? in any case i dont rlly c being able to fit it in a deck with so many useful cards nature has to offer.

The bad:

  • root network is not great overall. Tree spirits are being nerfed to unusability, living towers are still left to underperform, howling will still be mediocre at best as ive already described in my post when we last discussed it. 
  • spore launcher changes are wholly insufficient. Slow removal is ok i guess but inability to hit air means it still wont be practically viable at t4 vs enemy encampments with air units. If we compare to moloch strat we can see moloch is still viable since fire has so many easy access damage spells but nature would have to either crutch one of the t4 ranged units (none of which are root units so there goes viability of thematics if thats what youre aiming for) or blow mind control. Especially against lost dragons who disable mode change even with bene mo buff, not being able to hit air will be a huge detriment to their viability as an offensive unit (especially considering all the tedium of maintaining their support network as they move around).
  • mind control will not be reliable to counter buildings. I think the changes to it are nice overall but framing it as a counter to structures is simply not reasonable. Between random enemy units and random positions in relation to enemy structures as well as potential damage incurred and costs associated with mitigating damage to the mc unit so it can survive long enough to destroy the target as well as the costs from the mc spell itself just makes this entire strategy look extremely flimsy. I think at a minimum the cc immunity needs to last 15 seconds, if you mc a melee xl and even if it just has to turn through a few enemies and position next to a structure it is already near it can still take 5+ seconds and chance are it will have to hit at least twice. Not to mention if the mc target doesnt happen to be directly next to the priority structure. 
  • dont waste dev resources on grove spirit changes. having to micro an L unit especially when one of the main unit comps in 3+nature will be xl swift will just feel bad. The 4 orb nature spell option to counter zappers seems like the best direction. green tide sounds interesting but i feel like it would just cause headaches for balancing (think infect 2.0), pricing (also infect 2.0), and  healing (all the trash units will eat up the heals meant for real units).

Unresolved:

  • Forest elder heal does less if you use more than one at the same time. I brought this up quite a while back but cant find the post on here or discord and didnt save my excel sheet but if you have 2 or more elders and they use their healing at the same time it will actually end up healing less than a single elder although if i remember correctly it gets slightly increased as you have more elders so i think there might be a point at which numerous elders can match or exceed a single elder but it was very unrealistic. Please see if this could be fixed or offset.

I agree with mostly everything stated.  I've been a root network fan since I first played a decade ago. I am disappointed to find out that Spore Launcher, an XL unit, can't hit flying units... not sure the purpose of this at all. If nothing else, I think a speeding up their rooting/unrooting will go a long way to help the root network strategy. I think Parasite Swarm is nigh unusable in PVP now, having to wait for the ability that made it good to use and benefited Nature's weakness vs Air in T2. I do disagree with your assessment of Windweavers being so strong in T1. Yes, they're very powerful in T1, but in T2 they're very weak because of how little life they had. I am actually very interested in having a discussion on maybe moving Treespirits to T2 and buffing them to a T2 status. I love Treespirit, and use them in both my PVE and PVP deck, but unless they're in a mass group their burst dmg and less life now still makes them struggle. Does their poison get the M bonus?

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  • 2 months later...

Well, Primeval Watcher became 3 Green orb and Ghost Spears became 2 Green orb with

NO BENEFIT WHATSOEVER. Ghost spears might not be Trash tier, but they're pretty much useless out of PVP and

Primeval Watchers are now actual Trash Tier useless cards.

 

Your feedback doesn't matter, The skylord team will announce something they plan and they

will patch it into the game no matter how shit the idea is.

 

Depressing.

I'm gonna stop posting any feedback about the game what so ever because why bother?

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15 hours ago, chickennoodler said:

Well, Primeval Watcher became 3 Green orb and Ghost Spears became 2 Green orb with

NO BENEFIT WHATSOEVER. Ghost spears might not be Trash tier, but they're pretty much useless out of PVP and

Primeval Watchers are now actual Trash Tier useless cards.

Yeah changing Primeval to require 3 nature orbs really makes no sense to me its not like Watcher is so powerful that his orb requirements should be so restrictive. Bloodhorn for example is MUCH more powerful and only requires 1 shadow and 1 fire same applies to Gemeye,which by the way recieved a buff without changing its orb requirements. I wouldnt call Primeval "Trash Tier" but changing his orb requirements was just a bad idea.

15 hours ago, chickennoodler said:

Your feedback doesn't matter, The skylord team will announce something they plan and they

will patch it into the game no matter how shit the idea is.

This kind of reminds me of the Batariel nerf. There wasnt even a topic in the Balance Discussions part of the forum they simply nerfed Batariel to death. Then after alot of people complained they finally buffed Batariel again but that buff was just not enough in my opinion one man army Batariel decks are still pretty weak compared to what they were before.

The Batariel nerf was never needed because for the average player Batariel was never OP alot of casual players failed with pre nerf Batariel on harder maps either because they misplaced a spell or simply because they attacked too early and ran out of energy all it took was one mistake and Batariel died.

Also from what ive heard Decomposer was also nerfed to death without asking the BF Community and that made alot of Speedrunnders quit. I was never interested in speedrunning so i payed no attention to that but i cant find a topic about Decomposer in the Balance Discussions section so i guess its true.

Dont get me wrong im pretty happy with what the Skylords Reborn team has done so far but some of their decisions make absolutely no sense to me.

Edited by Fundus
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4 hours ago, Fundus said:

Also from what ive heard Decomposer was also nerfed to death without asking the BF Community and that made alot of Speedrunnders quit.

There was a lot of discussion! Mostly because bad harvest turned into this at some point:

sd.jpg.ffe6635088d281a08f91089a2ef12829.jpg

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15 minutes ago, SunWu said:

There was a lot of discussion! Mostly because bad harvest turned into this at some point:

sd.jpg.ffe6635088d281a08f91089a2ef12829.jpg

Which could be easily solved by changing the gold reward for the time spent on the map.

"Fixing" speedrunner tricks doesn't have any effect on the way normal players play, it's just spending time and resources to give certain players the middle finger.

I will not continue to discuss this though since I'm not allowed to express my opinion anymore on the balancing of the game.

Edited by DieToPlay
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It is ridiculous hyperbole to call Primeval Watcher a "trash tier" card which really cannot be taken seriously. Its chaining attack with Siege has huge damage potential and Stasis Field is more versatile than ever. It got stronger in every way, except the orb requirement changes. That alone makes it bad?

I would be in favor of moving it to :neutralorb::neutralorb::natureorb::natureorb: since it left this orb combination without a payoff unit from natures side given that Spore Launcher is dedicated to its own deck archetype. Since that Siege doesn't really fit Primeval Watcher thematically anyway, like are the fairies it spits out carrying away the bricks or something, I'd just give that up in order to make it more flexible once again.

Quote

Bloodhorn for example is MUCH more powerful and only requires 1 shadow and 1 fire same applies to Gemeye,which by the way recieved a buff without changing its orb requirements. 

Bloodhorn is so powerful that realistically it should be a pure Bandit card or at least have hybrid orbs instead of flex. The fact that it still retains its requirements despite its power is already a concession.

Enlightened Bata was ludicrously OP and everybody knew it. Claiming that the new Bata, despite it being a very powerful carry deck, is in any way weak just underlines how the existence of complete outliers warp and twist the perception of power. Imagine if Bata never had an uncapped damage aura that is affected by buffs. Just a steady 100 DPS. People would be blown away by its 300 DPS aura right now.
Decomposer straight up broke the game by throwing any conventions about economy out the window. BH farming was just a symptom of that, although it did heavy damage to progression. In any case the mechanic is planned to make a comeback through a dedicated mode. Addressing the issue was a priority though.

All of that was talked to death though, so focusing back on the topic at hand I think the weakspot of pure Nature is still T2. Fire can just continue to roll with its incredibly T1s, Shadow has Phoenix and Frost also gets a sturdy arsenal. Nature T2 feels wonky in comparison.

T1 was always good although somewhat monotonous but at least there is a semi-viable Werebeasts + Amazon + Fountain of Rebirth combo now. Still heavily suffers from being melee though. T3 is also good and even got a really fun toy with Abyssal Warder + Promise of Life. T4 is buttery smooth with Forest Elder being amazing, Primeval Watcher shredding and Mind Control being both good and fun. I am still unconvinced by Sanctuary but changes to Willzapper might help there.

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2 hours ago, Cocofang said:

Enlightened Bata was ludicrously OP and everybody knew it.

This is absolutely not true for casual players sure if executed perfectly pre nerf Batariel was very strong maybe even OP but for casual players one man army Batariel decks were high risk high reward decks. I dont know mow much Battlegrounds lvl 9 you played before the Batariel nerf but I saw more players fail with one man army Batariel decks than with any other deck.I havent seen soneone with a one man army Batariel deck for a very long time but i tried it a couple of days ago and i was pretty underwhelmed.

I dont play much Battlegrounds lvl 10 but id really like to know if one many army Batariel decks are viable for BG 10 again. Now speaking of Bloodhorn if you nerf it too how exactly are players supposed to win hard BG 10 maps? Pre nerf Batariel decks and Bloodhorn decks are the best decks for BG 10 and even with those decks alot of players failed. And after you nerfed Bloodhorn whats gonna get nerfed next? Fire Dragons or Wasteland Terror + Unity and Bloodthirst? Powerful cards are needed for BG lvl 10.

Also i would really like to know why there was no topic about Batariel in the Balance Discussions part of the forum before he was nerfed you just made those changes without asking the BF community first. There are topics about Colossus and Necroblaster but not about Batariel.

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29 minutes ago, Fundus said:

I dont play much Battlegrounds lvl 10 but id really like to know if one many army Batariel decks are viable for BG 10 again.

Totally viable, it is again a good deck for sure. And again good enough for very speedy runs

Edited by Volin
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