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Range cliffing - standpoint


Rondine

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[quote='claun' pid='9212' dateline='1437686350']
Cliffdancers are op but you can not remove them without giving pure fire something else to keep balance, in my oppinion they should get the game to work before they think too much about balancing it. I am saying this despite pure fire not being my main deck.
[/quote]

I agree with this. Yes, I often got angry from being cliffed by firedancers. At the same time, it was generally preventable. Never ideal, of course, but with a defensive t2 I (fire-nat) could typically hold until t3. Of course, pure fire has a much better t3 than me, but if I'm the better player I should win either way.

I like the mechanic of a unit that can cliff you, but I think the problem with firedancers is that they cliff REALLY well. Like, nobody would be complaining if a pure fire player went cliffing with fire stalkers. It's preventable (still difficult though), but if fire stalkers do manage to get a cliff up it's only an advantage, not the game.

What if firedancers lost their siege when shooting over walls or cliffs? That way they still have an annoyance and tactical factor, but they don't 3 shot a well before your burrowers can spit on the wall. It should be enough that I DO need to spit on the wall (cost more power than most walls) if I let it get up, but I won't lose unless I neglect to deal with it.

Firedancers should do fire stalker damage over walls and cliffs, and their normal OP damage otherwise.

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I am very happy to see @Hirooo explaining my point of view :D

[quote='Eirias' pid='9218' dateline='1437691181']
Firedancers should do fire stalker damage over walls and cliffs, and their normal OP damage otherwise.
[/quote]

Very good idea, this would be a great way to balance cliffdancers without touching the maps.
Might be not easy to code but I think it could be possible. When there is unwalkable ground in the projectile way it should deal less damage. This would also increase the difficulty of Fire t2 in general (considering that dancers are part of most fire decks) with imho is a good way of balancing a game.
Btw, due to the fact that in this case, Cliffdancers are still very easy to protect, they will still be very strong.

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[quote='Navarr' pid='9222' dateline='1437693850']

Might be not easy to code but I think it could be possible. When there is unwalkable ground in the projectile way it should deal less damage. Cliffdancers are still very easy to protect, they will still be very strong.
[/quote]

What if there is a well or a building in projectiles path ? Wouldn't this mean it would do less damage since this is technically speaking unwalkable because a building is on the terrain.

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[quote='Navarr' pid='9222' dateline='1437693850']
I am very happy to see @Hirooo explaining my point of view :D

[quote='Eirias' pid='9218' dateline='1437691181']
Firedancers should do fire stalker damage over walls and cliffs, and their normal OP damage otherwise.
[/quote]

Very good idea, this would be a great way to balance cliffdancers without touching the maps.
Might be not easy to code but I think it could be possible. When there is unwalkable ground in the projectile way it should deal less damage. This would also increase the difficulty of Fire t2 in general (considering that dancers are part of most fire decks) with imho is a good way of balancing a game.
Btw, due to the fact that in this case, Cliffdancers are still very easy to protect, they will still be very strong.
[/quote]

My reasoning exactly. Firedancers have a 50 meter range, right? So maybe they deal no siege when the shortest ground path between the firedancer and the target is 60 m or greater? For coding purposes? Obviously there would be loopholes involves with this, so a more rigorous definition might be in need if this becomes a popular nerf idea.

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The problem,Ā i know that rebuilding the map or give them differentĀ heights will beĀ neverĀ an option cause that is a ton of work, and only possible with a greater development team.Ā I think if you want to make terrain upassable this can cause alot of bugs in the game or can affect the Flying Units also, cause every mini stone/gap would prefend the Fire Dancer from shooting.Ā 

A Mortar System,Ā that you need Ground presence for vision on the long range shots can help, so they cannot wait behind the cliff to defend,Ā on the other side i know that this nerf would be fatal (alot to hard)Ā and no one include me want to play Pure FireĀ anymore.Ā 

To make Walls unusable for PVP would be easy, and that would beĀ for PVP also great cause no one really likeĀ to take walls (Lajesh worst Wallmap ever),Ā even if they areĀ strategically legit.
I think make Walls unable and giveĀ the other colours some kind of Counterplay would be the only optionĀ to fix this problem without nerfing Fire to the Ground.

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I dont think altering maps is that big of a deal considering how huge the communitymapszene was.
Adding in higher cliffs like mentioned here would fix the issue on most maps.
The walldancing part is a way smaller problem and while annoying can be played around.

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I think you are allowed to use everything to win that is not against the rules of the game, but I probably won't use tactics that are disliked by a lot of players because I like to win in a fun way and I respect my opponent.

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From my point of view this is just another aspect of the game considered to be used as a tactic. And not only for 'dancers.
Its generally an advantage players can take during duels (or possibly some PvE maps) :P
Definitelly not a bug nor an abuse. Its fine - there are ways to deal with it anyway. :)

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I think range cliffing should be okay, since its not a bug and its in the game, so its legal to do it. Theres cliffs in Starcraft 2 too, where you have a higher ground above other units. Same for this game, its totally fine to be shot from a high ground.

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[quote='WotdeFack' pid='11251' dateline='1438274911']
I think range cliffing should be okay, since its not a bug and its in the game, so its legal to do it.Ā 
[/quote]

Of course if something is not a bug and it's intented to be the way it is, it's "legal" to do it. However, just because something is in the game, doesn't mean it's balanced or that just because it's in the game it should stay in the game. This being an example of it: firedancers being able to cliff. It's in the game, it was intended, but most of the (top) players think that this is overpowered and should be tweaked (the reasons for this have already been mentioned by some top players so I won't mention them again here). Like I said I am no top PvP player, and since I won't PvP that much, I will leave this topic to the players that have enough experience to handle this and give appropriate suggestions.

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Many decks just don't have viable counterplay against cliffdancer . It is literally a low risk - high reward play that doesn't require any kind of skill (it's just based on maprng as already mentioned)Ā & this kind of gamemechanic is just unhealthy. Ā 
In addition to that pure fire was already very strongĀ against manyĀ decks, so it's not like the deck was cliffdancer-reliant. The strategy just created the opportunity to win games without playing better than your opponent, which makes it really frustratingĀ to play against.

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hmmm i see, i never played pvp on a very high level so i didn't have a lot of problems with it, but after i read your arguments cliffing might need a little nerf... I have no idea how to do that though, make all the maps flat?

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Well i doubt you could fix firedancer cliffing/mortar cliffing easyly. The mortar allready requires ground presence and that didn't change too much in my opinion, it is still an issue. As long as there is no way of detecting cliffing within the game's code (there highly likely is none) i do not see a change happening here.

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The suggested try to get cliffs(the ones where dancers seem to need to walk around before firing) around the known spots would be enough to stop cliffdancing.
Mortar seems like a lesser problem in my opinion.
To prevent groundpresence with 50 powerlead (+the difficulty to get a building up with 50% speed) seems reasonable.
Also there are a lot of buildings that lead to an advantage if you could get them builded up like termithill or iceshield tower but I would not consider this as hard to counter as firedancers.

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[quote='Hirooo' pid='11445' dateline='1438355545']
The suggested try to get cliffs(the ones where dancers seem to need to walk around before firing) around the known spots would be enough to stop cliffdancing.
Mortar seems like a lesser problem in my opinion.
To prevent groundpresence with 50 powerlead (+the difficulty to get a building up with 50% speed) seems reasonable.
Also there are a lot of buildings that lead to an advantage if you could get them builded up like termithill or iceshield tower but I would not consider this as hard to counter as firedancers.
[/quote]

Have to agree with this. If its possible to adjust the cliffs the problem should be solved.

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guys i dont rly get the point.. if the player knows how to play and got the skills he can counter anything so pls cut it out... stop cry about cliffdancer i had so much games against that and it wasnt never freewin.. u allways got something to do and somehow to counter it.. the begginers need to get some skills and then learn to play vs anything... its not a secret that i was a lamer like u hiroo and like the most of the players(even high rank players) in the game so pls stop cry ty!

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guys i dont rly get the point.. if the player knows how to play and got the skills he can counter anything so pls cut it out... stop cry about cliffdancer i had so much games against that and it wasnt never freewin.. u allways got something to do and somehow to counter it.. the begginers need to get some skills and then learn to play vs anything... its not a secret that i was a lamer like u hiroo and like the most of the players(even high rank players) in the game so pls stop cry ty!

Wouldn't it be cool if there were no ,,lame'' ways in PVP and instead hundreds of viable ways to win in a fair way ? And if you didn't need much more skill to counter certain tactics with certain decks ? Well thought-out balancing can accomplish this in long term. I remember you were a really good player that played a bandit deck in sparring at one time. Of course you never played it in ranked PVP because you knew it was underpowered. So I wonder if you think THIS is the ideal meta regarding fairness/balance, versatility and fun ? Or if you have no faith in someone being able to balance the game ?

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Wouldn't it be cool if there were no ,,lame'' ways in PVP and instead hundreds of viable ways to win in a fair way ? And if you didn't need much more skill to counter certain tactics with certain decks ? Well thought-out balancing can accomplish this in long term. I remember you were a really good player that played a bandit deck in sparring at one time. Of course you never played it in ranked PVP because you knew it was underpowered. So I wonder if you think THIS is the ideal meta regarding fairness/balance, versatility and fun ? Or if you have no faith in someone being able to balance the game ?

maybe it would.. and maybe not.. i dont think so dude..the lame way is the fun way if u want it or not i dont think that if the game will beome balance it will be More funĀ then it was... i think bafo was perfect game.. if ea was upload a patch every month or something like that this game could have much more then 5000+- players atm.. u know u allways need some new stuff or it will be be boring..Ā Ā Ā this game is the best game i played and i dont want it to be change if u think it will be more funĀ if it will be balance so u rly rly wrong..u saying that cuz u lost to lame alot and u didnt know how to win that lame..the lame way was good but not that good u always can lose if u dont have skills so i said it befor and i will say it know.. if u got good skills u can win anyone with any kind of deck vs any kind of lame.. i was lameing with mountnier if u remmber this card.. was op aswall but if i had a mistake in the game im dead.. so i had skills and u were right i was a really good player cuz i had skills that i used to win any player with any deck.. i played bandits but not in the main acc^^ i had good score and didnt want to risk that so i opened new acc and i won alot of matches even against counters and lame... cuz of what? cuz i had skills.. this game work onĀ skills and tactics.. if u know how to play u will know how to handel the tactics that the player against you is useing.. i knew how to handel it just fine and i think that anyone can learn how to do that.. if u think that deck is underpowered i dont want toĀ Insult you but you r noob... any deck can be good if u know how to play with it.. pure nature stonkin or even fire frost.. all thought that this decks are sucks.. if u play againt hiroo and he playing fire frost u dead in sec doesnt metter if u got lame or not.. some players could win him cuz they played better and knew how to take adv on him(im in the list too) but not cuz we had lame.. cuz we had skills and tactics! u know its hard to rich the top lvl in game.. i did that and anyone can do that.. i played ranked 1v1 and 2v2 with the top players and it was fun cuz we had lame lol.. me and maranv had nick name "lame bro" cuz we had the most fun when we played with or against lame so my point is that... if u want it or not the lame game style is rlyĀ necessaryĀ and this game wont be the same without it.. bilve me kid i know im saying..Ā 

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maybe it would.. and maybe not.. i dont think so dude..the lame way is the fun way if u want it or not i dont think that if the game will beome balance it will be More funĀ then it was... i think bafo was perfect game.. if ea was upload a patch every month or something like that this game could have much more then 5000+- players atm.. u know u allways need some new stuff or it will be be boring..Ā Ā Ā this game is the best game i played and i dont want it to be change if u think it will be more funĀ if it will be balance so u rly rly wrong..u saying that cuz u lost to lame alot and u didnt know how to win that lame..the lame way was good but not that good u always can lose if u dont have skills so i said it befor and i will say it know.. if u got good skills u can win anyone with any kind of deck vs any kind of lame.. i was lameing with mountnier if u remmber this card.. was op aswall but if i had a mistake in the game im dead.. so i had skills and u were right i was a really good player cuz i had skills that i used to win any player with any deck.. i played bandits but not in the main acc^^ i had good score and didnt want to risk that so i opened new acc and i won alot of matches even against counters and lame... cuz of what? cuz i had skills.. this game work onĀ skills and tactics.. if u know how to play u will know how to handel the tactics that the player against you is useing.. i knew how to handel it just fine and i think that anyone can learn how to do that.. if u think that deck is underpowered i dont want toĀ Insult you but you r noob... any deck can be good if u know how to play with it.. pure nature stonkin or even fire frost.. all thought that this decks are sucks.. if u play againt hiroo and he playing fire frost u dead in sec doesnt metter if u got lame or not.. some players could win him cuz they played better and knew how to take adv on him(im in the list too) but not cuz we had lame.. cuz we had skills and tactics! u know its hard to rich the top lvl in game.. i did that and anyone can do that.. i played ranked 1v1 and 2v2 with the top players and it was fun cuz we had lame lol.. me and maranv had nick name "lame bro" cuz we had the most fun when we played with or against lame so my point is that... if u want it or not the lame game style is rlyĀ necessaryĀ and this game wont be the same without it.. bilve me kid i know im saying..Ā 

,,the lame way is the fun way''Ā  -Ā  i know, right ? What were your most fun matches ? Those without T1 and T2 and 20 minute exciting cursewelling while defending only ? Or those where you lost to Taker because he cliffed you ?

,,if u think it will be more funĀ if it will be balance so u rly rly wrong..u saying that cuz u lost to lame alot'' - I played almost every deck and sometimes i won against players that were better than me because my deck was overpowering theirs. I can imagaine a person like you sees no problem here, but i'm more of a fairplay guy. Also it's quite disrespectful to accuse me of wanting to change the game only because i'm missing skill...

,,any deck can be good if u know how to play with it.''Ā  Then stand by your word and play something that's not lost souls in ranked for a change ?

,,bla bla bla i'm so good y'all just noob stop cry'' Not in the mood to deal with all of your nonsense right now.

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I have to disagreeĀ with yourĀ point of view, matmic. It was in no way funny to play with or against some certain strategies, because they were one-dimensional and didn't take a high amount of skill. A well balanced game is way more enjoyable compared to a game which Ā is dependend on a limited amount of broken strategies.

If you look at the balance-state of Battleforge at the end ... it wasn't tooĀ bad, honestly. I don't think i could create a big list with imbalanced cards/strategies, but cliffdancing was for sure one of the worst things in PvP.

Sure you can make that argumentĀ "IĀ can fuck my opponent in T1 and outplay him with my mechanics, gg easy", but it just doesn't work all the time in high elo. You are usually only able to take small advantages against really good players and if your opponent goes ahead and starts to use cliffdancer against you (you can't avoid this on some maps) this small lead doesn't matter at all and your opponent wins even when you were in theory the better player. This shouldn't exist and the majority of (high elo) players would agree, that in a healthy game the better player should be able toĀ win against the less skilled opponent in a consistent way.

Best regards

RadicalX

Ā 

Edited by RadicalX
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,,the lame way is the fun way''Ā  -Ā  i know, right ? What were your most fun matches ? Those without T1 and T2 and 20 minute exciting cursewelling while defending only ? Or those where you lost to Taker because he cliffed you ?

,,if u think it will be more funĀ if it will be balance so u rly rly wrong..u saying that cuz u lost to lame alot'' - I played almost every deck and sometimes i won against players that were better than me because my deck was overpowering theirs. I can imagaine a person like you sees no problem here, but i'm more of a fairplay guy. Also it's quite disrespectful to accuse me of wanting to change the game only because i'm missing skill...

,,any deck can be good if u know how to play with it.''Ā  Then stand by your word and play something that's not lost souls in ranked for a change ?

,,bla bla bla i'm so good y'all just noob stop cry'' Not in the mood to deal with all of your nonsense right now.

ahahahahahahah "then stand by your word and play somthing thats not lost souls in ranked for a change" hahahahahahahaah ur so funny guy i can bring u so much games i was playing pure fire bandits even frost fire in ranked.. i was playing and lameing cuz when i lamed it was so fun to see someone lose and cry... someone like u.. u want to tell me i reach to top with only LS deck? comeon... u know u say bullshit so pls stfu.. if i played LS it was vs top rank player like u know i wont remindĀ them right now.. if u want to tell me im good im already knows that so u cant compre u to me.. or u to anyone of the top lvl players.. i remmber u and i remmber ur lame too.. u played anydeck? rly? u played anydeck and lost with any deck.. cuz u was low.. if u played pure fire u had a chance to distroy a powerwell but nothing more.. ur more of a fairplay guy? i rly can give a fuck on that.. u know why? cuz anyone in the game wants to win! if u win u having fun and can say what u want but if u lose u can close ur mouthĀ and try to get more skills to handel better players then u.. ye i was lameing and i loved that cuz i won with that! some guys just saw me with LS Ā deck and just leave the match cuz they know they cant do shit about my playstyle and im prettysure if u wereĀ like me and had my game style u were talking like me aswell... about my most fun matchs.. it was t1 and t2.. my t3 was so op that if i had adv u already lost so nothing to talk about that.. i never lost when i had tremor in the map.. about my t1.. if u saw me playing t1 u know im one of the best t1 shadow in game.. not the best cuz u always got some mistakes u r not a robot like cdkillroy that never had mistake with immortaldragon acc.. i get my adc in t1 fight then t2 frost starting get my mounteirs out and then it becoms gg cuz most of the players dont know how to stop that.. its too much to handel twoĀ mountiers with homesoil.. nothing can stop that and thats what fun in the game if u got the lead u got win.. but u create the lead! not ur cards and not op crads.. my wins starts in t1 fight.. allways! if u will start have skills u will know what i know.. ty for idiotic stuff.. read andĀ Internalize

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ahahahahahahah "then stand by your word and play somthing thats not lost souls in ranked for a change" hahahahahahahaah ur so funny guy i can bring u so much games i was playing pure fire bandits even frost fire in ranked.. i was playing and lameing cuz when i lamed it was so fun to see someone lose and cry... someone like u.. u want to tell me i reach to top with only LS deck? comeon... u know u say bullshit so pls stfu.. if i played LS it was vs top rank player like u know i wont remindĀ them right now.. if u want to tell me im good im already knows that so u cant compre u to me.. or u to anyone of the top lvl players.. i remmber u and i remmber ur lame too.. u played anydeck? rly? u played anydeck and lost with any deck.. cuz u was low.. if u played pure fire u had a chance to distroy a powerwell but nothing more.. ur more of a fairplay guy? i rly can give a fuck on that.. u know why? cuz anyone in the game wants to win! if u win u having fun and can say what u want but if u lose u can close ur mouthĀ and try to get more skills to handel better players then u.. ye i was lameing and i loved that cuz i won with that! some guys just saw me with LS Ā deck and just leave the match cuz they know they cant do shit about my playstyle and im prettysure if u wereĀ like me and had my game style u were talking like me aswell... about my most fun matchs.. it was t1 and t2.. my t3 was so op that if i had adv u already lost so nothing to talk about that.. i never lost when i had tremor in the map.. about my t1.. if u saw me playing t1 u know im one of the best t1 shadow in game.. not the best cuz u always got some mistakes u r not a robot like cdkillroy that never had mistake with immortaldragon acc.. i get my adc in t1 fight then t2 frost starting get my mounteirs out and then it becoms gg cuz most of the players dont know how to stop that.. its too much to handel twoĀ mountiers with homesoil.. nothing can stop that and thats what fun in the game if u got the lead u got win.. but u create the lead! not ur cards and not op crads.. my wins starts in t1 fight.. allways! if u will start have skills u will know what i know.. ty for idiotic stuff.. read andĀ Internalize

that's the problem with some of ya highrank dudes, your set of values; ELO/skill > respect/intelligence/logic/kindness//fairplay

I think you will understand i will not engage in anymore mud-wrestling as the quality of the thread now reaches a BFcards.info-commentsection level.

Edited by SunWu II.
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I have to disagreeĀ with yourĀ point of view, matmic. It was in no way funny to play with or against some certain strategies, because they were one-dimensional and didn't take a high amount of skill. A well balanced game is way more enjoyable compared to a game which Ā is dependend on a limited amount of broken strategies.

If you look at the balance-state of Battleforge at the end ... it wasn't tooĀ bad, honestly. I don't think i could create a big list with imbalanced cards/strategies, but cliffdancing was for sure one of the worst things in PvP.

Sure you can make that argumentĀ "IĀ can fuck my opponent in T1 and outplay him with my mechanics, gg easy", but it just doesn't work all the time in high elo. You are usually only able to take small advantages against really good players and if your opponent goes ahead and starts to use cliffdancer against you (you can't avoid this on some maps) this small lead doesn't matter at all and your opponent wins even when you were in theory the better player. This shouldn't exist and the majority of (high elo) players would agree, that in a healthy game the better player should be able toĀ win against the less skilled opponent in a consistent way.

Best regards

RadicalX

Ā 

first of all hello^^ now lets start.. didnt take a high amount of skill? u want to say if some noob play with pure fire deck and cliffdancer u cant stop him? i dont think so.. if someone knows how to play and got skills and it needs high skills cuz u got alot of stuff to handel it.. i know what im saying cuz i played so much with or against this deck.. i know this deck like i know LS deck.. u right when u got skills u rly can fuck ur opponent in t1 and got win.. and u rly right when u say it doent work all the time in high elo? and why its not? cuz all the top rank players got op skills.. and knows to counter anything at anytime.. Ā about the advĀ against rly good players.. if u win u were with adv.. how u took this adv.. (t1,t2,t3,) gameplay and ur calls do the game nothing more.. not ur deck and not ur cards only the player who playing bhind the computer.. if ur opponent use clifdancer u just look at him? no u go to attcak some where else.. maybe u cant def in some maps but u can attcak and force ur opponent to def then u can kill firedancer and take another lead and win.. u know u got alot of stuff to make a adv.. alot of highrank players do some mistakes in game even me and u.. in game u need to take adv on this mistakes and not wait to something else to happen.. u were good player radical i remmber our 2v2 matches and even the 3v3 matches^^ we allways had victorys and lost game.. how we won or how we lost i dont rly remmber but i allways remmber that me and my teammates doing our best to win.. with or without lame.. play and win if u win u having fun!

Edited by matmicback
nothing to say more then if u win u having fun.. most of the kids that lost to lame are here and talking..
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first of all hello^^ now lets start.. didnt take a high amount of skill? u want to say if some noob play with pure fire deck and cliffdancer u cant stop him? i dont think so.. if someone knows how to play and got skills and it needs high skills cuz u got alot of stuff to handel it.. i know what im saying cuz i played so much with or against this deck.. i know this deck like i know LS deck.. u right when u got skills u rly can fuck ur opponent in t1 and got win.. and u rly right when u say it doent work all the time in high elo? and why its not? cuz all the top rank players got op skills.. and knows to counter anything at anytime.. Ā about the adc against rly good players.. if u win u were with adv.. how u took this adv.. (t1,t2,t3,) gameplay and ur calls do the game nothing more.. not ur deck and not ur cards only the player who playing bhind the computer.. if ur opponent use clifdancer u just look at him? no u go to attcak some where else.. maybe u cant def in some maps but u can attcak and force ur opponent to def then u can kill firedancer and take another lead and win.. u know u got alot of stuff to make a adv.. alot of highrank players do some mistakes in game even me and u.. in game u need to take adv on this mistakes and not wait to something else to happen.. u were good play radical i remmber our 2v2 matches and even the 3v3 matches^^ we allways had victorys and lost game.. how we won or how we lost i dont rly remmber but i allways remmber that me and my teammates doing our best to win.. with or without lame.. play and win if u win u having fun but vs u hiroo and cdkillroy even when i lost i had fun^^Ā 

can you pls use the enter key... its extremely hard to read such awall of text.

he was just saying that the advantage you can gain by cliffing is to high for the risk you take. And yes you can counter everything but if the skill and risks you need take to use a certain strategy is in no comparison to the skill and risks the opponent player needs to take to counter, it is unbalanced. and thats the exact case with cliffing.

obviously im not on the highest pvp level however i followed a lot of discussions about this on the old forum and i think my overall game understandatement is well enough to get the main points of it. The majority of players that took part in that discussions( it was 98% high elo) had the opinion that the risk-reward balance is in no comparison for cliffing.

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that's the problem with some of ya highrank dudes, your set of values; ELO/skill > respect/intelligence/logic/kindness//fairplay

I think you will understand i will not engage in anymore mud-wrestling as the quality of the thread now reaches a BFcards.info-commentsection level.

i dont think it only high rank players.. any humen in the world! if u good in something u will say it and not keep it in the dark.. respect fair play lol.. i dont rly know what u mean with respect.. if u had win u respect fair play? o u will say that way u win... if u were good in this game u were know that there is no way to have fair win..Ā 

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