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Wintertide Red change: Wtf were u guys thinking?


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On 5/5/2021 at 9:21 AM, SunWu said:

You obviously didn't notice they reworked a lot of the maps so that frost now has much better chances of gaining mapcontrol / defending swift rushes.

 

Obviously, any change helping frost this way helps all the other faction playstyles overall. Expecting it to benefit Frost only in the longrun is silly. I do not count that as a Frost buff as players adapt to the new mapping, it can eventually turn out no, it benefits other factions as much if not more.

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15 hours ago, chickennoodler said:

 

Obviously, any change helping frost this way helps all the other faction playstyles overall. Expecting it to benefit Frost only in the longrun is silly. I do not count that as a Frost buff as players adapt to the new mapping, it can eventually turn out no, it benefits other factions as much if not more.

It's really not that complicated:

Frost is the strongest in close well situations. This has nothing to do with playstyle, meta or players adapting to mapping... Ice guardians are just really strong and in close well situations you actually get to use them. Fire and shadow really struggle cause they can't rely on their S sized M counters as usual, cause they get destroyed by master archers.

So: big map bad for frost. Small map good. There's no adapting to that, it's been like that for years. One of the reasons frost was never really popular, a lot of players don't want to be that dependant on rng.

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17 hours ago, chickennoodler said:

Obviously, any change helping frost this way helps all the other faction playstyles overall. Expecting it to benefit Frost only in the longrun is silly. I do not count that as a Frost buff as players adapt to the new mapping, it can eventually turn out no, it benefits other factions as much if not more.

Obviously, Frost benefits much more from smaller maps because they are the only T1 which lacks a swift unit. Larger maps means that other players can get a more advantageous position and prevent Frost from building up momentum. Nerfs of Mortar and Phase Tower already resulted in Frost (and Nature) being noticeably more viable. This was best observed in the tournaments so far.

In fact, Master Archer spam coupled with Wintertide repeatedly and reliably killed Dreadchargers in the Shadow matchup. For the Shadow player it is exceedingly difficult to avoid taking damage from MA + Wintertide to the point where it cannot be stopped anymore. 

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Instead of making this card useless you could have been a little creative and give it an abillity that makes it good and original in PvE but not OP in PvP.

Or you could have simply changed it so that its trample damage only affects L and XL units.

Pretty sad if you ask me...

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On 5/7/2021 at 11:25 PM, Fimion said:

Instead of making this card useless you could have been a little creative and give it an abillity that makes it good and original in PvE but not OP in PvP.

Or you could have simply changed it so that its trample damage only affects L and XL units.

Pretty sad if you ask me...

As a matter of fact, this is not possible. We are constrained by the technical limitations of the unit-logic that is provided by the game. There is a module called "TrampleRevengeDamage" that can be attached to units which then gain this passive ability. This module can then be modifies by several parameters, such as damage but we cannot limit it to certain types of size.

Naturally, having more control over the logic would give us more powerful and fine-grained solution but in the end, the things we can change about gameplay essentially boils down to "modding" existing logic. Everything beyond that would require reverse-engineering of the game's binaries.

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I rather agree with op here, this change is quite dumb, if you try to think about it, it doesn't make sense, if you are encased in ice & icicles, it would only make sense that something running in to you, it's gonna take damage, with smaller swift units actually taking more damage from trampling than larger ones (think skin thickness(stonkin should receive relatively little)), movement through frozen units should also be really really slow, ranged attacks should be almost completely negated with fire attacks shortening the duration of the spell/it's effectiveness, affected units melee output would drop to almost nothing, ranged units, should still be able to shoot, but only in the same direction as they were when the spell was cast, or be really slow at changing it. whole spell starting out really strong, but it's effects fading as the ice melts. With that said, that is probably too much to ask for, since FWIH, we're rather limited in what can be done. If anything affinities should be merged, leaving the great stats of both previous versions(40% reduction and trample), but requiring a building to be nearby, just like homesoil, the current increased melee DMG is complete garbage in almost any aspect you look at it.

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  • 1 month later...

Payback damage is terrible, buff melee damage is also terrible.

Why? because of niche usecase.

I like neither of those...

What is worse? 30% damage buff is just too small for 2 big restriction...

Below are some affect of other infused cards(red affinity):

  • deal more damage to frozen
  • rage
  • siege
  • no daze
  • deal more damage to type X unit
  • burning aura
  • remove debuff
  • reflect damage
  • ...

Which I feel you could just take any of those and are way better than this new mechanic(buff melee damage).

and OP already explain how anti trample is clearly more useful than melee damage buff in both PvP and PvE

OP may be rude , but I will just quote him here "Wtf were u guys thinking?"

Edited by undead4ever
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On 6/30/2021 at 9:25 AM, Volin said:

I almost don't need to ask, but  you haven't read whats written  between OP and yours, or even followed the links, or?

No he's right, why not just siege or rage on massed master archers, much better than supid devs ideas /s

Edited by SunWu
Edit: above is sarcasm
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3 hours ago, SunWu said:

No he's right

At least once in the disscussion style it is not.
By God, I'm really not always with the devs of one opinion, since my appointment to the "PvE Taskforce" I must even state that I have a different opinion in many topics, especially in the matter of inventory. But the rudely formulated question "What the hell were you thinking?" is simply an impertinence, given the mass of explanations for this decision.

I "know" only 2 members of the PVP team, but to accuse them of thoughtlessness, ignorance or stupidity is just ridiculous.

But I do like that the solution isn't chosen to be "obvious" or "simple", because most of what comes after "That's simple..." is bullshit.

I'm still a bit fascinated where this much emotion comes from, especially in Wintertide and especially from the PvE side. Have you ever looked at the statistics how often this card was played? As if the PvE world would end here...

It's a shame that I can't really have a say in the matter, but since it concerns PvP I have to stay out of it due to lack of knowledge. An insight that I would wish some, and here I mean really NO concrete, also.

As for the PvE, yes a pity that there is a niche disappeared, but for that so many niches have already opened (yeah - I look at you Emberstrike).
If every little buff there was would have been celebrated as loudly as there was drama for such mini-nerfs...

 

again partly translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version) - was lazy today

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

@Volin

You asked me if read the whole discussion, but I doubt you even read my short post properly.

To answer your question : I did, and it seem the whole point is to make shadow dreadcharger  playable against frost.

I myself are not pvp expert , so I don't argue with this.However , I feel its problematic to balance things base on such niche situation.

My whole point is, there are many other option, why even go with melee damage buff for rooting spell.

Don't critize other when you are not even able to comprehend a short post please,  you are rude.

 

Edited by undead4ever
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3 minutes ago, undead4ever said:

lol ? are you implying

PvP expert = card balancing expert or game design expert

Sound like 1 of the response from dev team

He thinks it's funny that you're complaining about a certain niche use not being available anymore and then turn around and say ,,I feel its problematic to balance things base on such niche situation''. You see the contradiction. And while killing XL units with S units and wintertide IS a niche situation, dread vs MAs in pvp is not, it's a standard scenario.

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Posted (edited)
21 minutes ago, SunWu said:

He thinks it's funny that you're complaining about a certain niche use not being available anymore and then turn around and say ,,I feel its problematic to balance things base on such niche situation''. You see the contradiction. And while killing XL units with S units and wintertide IS a niche situation, dread vs MAs in pvp is not, it's a standard scenario.

Let go back to the timeline, the amii edition(last edition before game shutdown) add this mechanic due frost always has problem with unit with trample  in t1.

In card game ,meta come and go, you better add more tool for the player not phasing things out.  Certain deck will do good against 1 things and bad against another.

Why do I call it niche situaion? because of one card shadow dreadcharger. Where does red  Wintertide be useful beside that?

 

 

Edited by undead4ever
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46 minutes ago, undead4ever said:

Why do I call it niche situaion? because of one card shadow dreadcharger.

 

It is not a niche use if a scenario occurs in almost all shadow - frost pvp matchups. See, you don't have to be a pvp pro to discuss balancing, but if you don't have the slightest idea about it, never seen a single pvp match....maybe be more careful with assumptions. Cause a single change can destroy multiple pvp matchups (all of your ,,infused'' ideas would) while PVE has a little more room for change.

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Posted (edited)

dude , I did many pvp as frost vs shadow before.

there practically no counter to lame ass forsaken and dreadcharger combo.

They are faster-> map control , hard to kill , permanent stun with 2 -3 dread.

Wintertide was a god sent back in the day.

you are getting lead by the troll,  let me make that statement clear :

I am not pvp expert , I dont mind if u remove trample damage or not

BUT the replacement is pure ********.

AND the trample mechanic is way better than this new *********

 

They could just use witchclaw instead, but I doubt this discussion will just dilute my point if i go futher here.

Edited by undead4ever
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Posted (edited)
48 minutes ago, undead4ever said:

there practically no counter to lame ass forsaken and dreadcharger combo.

Except master archers and ice guardian

48 minutes ago, undead4ever said:

Wintertide was a god sent back in the day.

So godsent that most topplayers didn't even consider using it

48 minutes ago, undead4ever said:

They could just use witchclaw instead,

No, witchclaw is inferior - useless ability, squad of two (half dmg once at a certain HP), only 2 can attack a well

 

 

Edit: I'm gonna stop here now, at this point it's just you venting and being wrong most of the time (when it comes to facts and not opinion, totally respect you not liking the change, hate how you handle it)

Edited by SunWu
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haha dude, I said I am no expert(just because i never gone past Battle master) , but I am far from clueless.

this gone off topic  so you make me say this again ,

"Wtf were u guys thinking?"

the replacement is pure ********.

 

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The removal of Wintertide reflect damage opens up many ways of changing Frost towards better design as a PvP faction (map changes already helped here and you can expect more in the future). I can see that people consider the new Wintertide mechanic as uninteresting. But to give you an idea about our thought process and reasoning for this change: Essentially we temporarly "sacrifice" a really poorly designed PvP card with no playrates or strong usecases in PvE to make room for faction improvements and I personally think it pays off so far as the balance in PvP has improved on several aspects. 

I am not opposed to the idea of making Wintertide more useful again by redesigning it towards the PvE side at some point, but that decision is up to the PvE faction designers as they also need to set their priorities when it comes down to impactful changes (there already are plans, that are going to affect Frost T1). 

If you have any ideas to submit, feel free to share them in the forums or go to the balancing discord and discuss them in the respective channel. Just keep in mind, that we have no intentions of keeping that card as a core option in PvP decks right now (If you want to receive a more detailed reasoning for that decision from the PvP side, feel free to ask).

 

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