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How much afect the free pvp decks to the economy?


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Hellow guys, first at all, i'm just learning english so if a make a 1k mistakes mb :v.

I make that post because i can't understand how much afect to the economy the free pvp decks. in pvp I only play pure fire and pure shadow since 2012, and the funniest part was to get all the cards, i remember yet when i got my firedance promo, trolling and playing with girl power xD, and in the beta i got again the same decks, i was so happy to get my pure fire pvp deck lvl 120 again, but each time i play a pvp game, i think, why i need to buy cards, why i need to upgrade cards, right now i have a lot of cards to build my fire deck but i don´t need to upgrade it, i feel that each time i see the cards.

And i was thinking, how much people feels like me, how much people think the pvp cards are unnecesary and sell them cheap.

 

As I said, i started this game in 2010 to the close of the servers, and the only way to get cards in that moment was making a lot of emaails and get the promo from the quest and sell them in 250 bfp :v, joke.......................... maybie :v.

The only way to get cards was to complete the daily quest and get 1 bfp and buy the 1 bfp minibooster, i started buying and selling cards, first cards in 10, 12, 14 bfp and sold in 15 to 20, after cards of 100+, after cards of 1k+. So, i know a little about the ah, some times I make some horrible tests and lose tons of bfp and some times i sold 8 forest elder purple in 850 bfp each one and 2 days ago buy them again in 300 or less each one. So I'm not an expert but i try my best.

With the "onpional" bid the buy-sell cames so fucking hard, or impossible if you dont have 14 hours to play daily, and now you literally don´t need to buy cards to play pvp.

But, that means the pvp decks are bad?, no, i really think is a great idea, i love the idea and i wanna see more people plaing pvp, and the free pvp decks are a great way to make players play pvp, but, is really nescesary to make a full free pvp deck lvl 120?.

I mean, I think a good and intermediate solution is make free pvp decks with one or two updates in the cards, 

(If you wanna test pvp there are the free pvp decks, lvl 90 or lvl 60, but if you wanna more, if u wanna go to the top,, if you like and have fun with that deck, you need to make your own deck buying cards and upgrading them)

I think is a great solution, with 2 upgrades in the free pvp cards would be perfect to test them.

Making an example if you don't think that doesn't affect economy, just think about that: 

What could happen if you make a free pve deck with the amii monumente free?, that card will cost as cost right now?

Right now the pve players are dancing with the cost of amii monument, infect, enlightenmente etc, and the pvp players are crying with the wild fire in 20.

And I know, some times is just the feeling of the people about a card, the kind of the card, etc, I know all the facts, but, if they don't need buy the card to play it then don't care the feeling about the card, don't care if they think if is good or not, don't care if is rare or common.

 

That's all the idea, i want to talk about this in more detail but i don´t know how, my english is poor. But hope you can understand the idea.

I wanna know what you think. 

Thanks

werty likes this
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Let's leave the economical aspect of getting BFPs, as I believe it is different topic.

PvP is having large issues with activity and match-making. Activity is low and playing vs top players is usually frustrating. Free PvP decks are aiming mainly at two groups of people:

  • Those who play little BF at all.
  • Those who play mainly PvE.

Those players do not play PvP a lot, and therefore can't easily make a proper PvP deck for reasons. Giving them significantly weaker decks (where PvP is already frustrating, and upgrades have significant influence on result of skirmishes) is not encouraging to play the gamemode. The idea is to give more equal chances in terms of mechanics (balance is different topic), not to make them lose purely because of weaker cards. I never heard about any successful PvP RTS, which used pay to win approach. (note, current Battleforge is pay to win game as well, but you pay with your time instead, and it is only valid for PvE thanks to free decks).

Players who play PvP a lot, gather cards for their decks regardless, to have larger variety of decks for tournaments.

 

If you added Amii Monument to free PvP decks, it would change absolutely nothing, since it's not PvP card, and it wouldn't be possible to use it in PvE anyway.
In terms of marketplace economy, you could think that some prices are low, because PvP cards are free. However, please keep in mind, that population of PvP is between 0.3%-2% of the whole community, meaning they have minor effect on in-game economy, unless you mean competition with PvE players for 4 charges of Harvester, Mountaineer.

Timer, Metagross31 and Eirias like this
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Yeah, I was expecting a larger shift in prices but the impact on card economy was almost nothing, since PvP players are a smaller portion of the population.

The only card I can think of that dropped in price was voidstorm, since that has 0 use in pve but is also rare. Players who wanted to use it in PvP could just use the free version, so demand was really small, and prices keep dropping until you can afford it even without the free version. But even cards like harvester, which is used in every pure shadow PvP deck, is used much more often in PvE because there are just more people playing PvE.

 

Regarding making the free PvP decks less than full upgrades: that's been explained as a bad idea many times. Dedicated PvP players can buy their PvP decks because that's what they play, but then other players are discouraged from wasting their gold and bfp in the PvP gamemode  which they might only try a few times. Since the players who need free pvp decks are less experienced in the first place, why should they be further handicapped?

But as @Dallarian has said, even this would have no impact on card prices. Dedicated PvP players still buy a lot of PvP cards so they can play different decks, and use surprise cards. The "occasional" PvP player wouldn't care about buying PvP cards because they'd rather focus on PvE, so they'll just play even less PvP. Basically the only players who'd be affected are new players who want to get into PvP, and there are so few of them it would make no difference to global prices.

Edited by Eirias
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@Dallarian Thanks for the answer, only i never said to add amii monumento to pvp deck, i said to create a free pve deck and add amii monument.

 

6 hours ago, Eirias said:

but then other players are discouraged from wasting their gold and bfp in the PvP gamemode  which they might only try a few times.

@Eirias Thanks for the answer. This is not the point of the game?, to create new experiences, to test, to fail, to lose, to win in game and in economy?.

Because you said plaing vs experienced players is frustrating but, sorry if i said in that way but players who are bad are bad, if they have full deck or half deck will be the same, if they just attack while the experienced player def ant attack 2 or 3 points, always the experienced player will win, it doesn´t make difference.

In that way too, a lot of new players have problems with pve modes, where are the free pve decks for there?, and i know is a huge difference, you guys are telling me is just a few players who play pvp but, thats all the reason to make free pvp decks with full upgrades?.

With all that you are telling me, the pvp comunity is not big, so really dont care what we make with it?, is that?, you are just ignoring and making the best way possible to get new players to pvp?, but is this not breaking the escence of the game?. 

You buy cards and test them to make the game alive.

7 hours ago, Eirias said:

I was expecting a larger shift in prices but the impact on card economy was almost nothing,

"almost nothing" but was affected, some cards lose 10, 20, 50 bfp maybie 50 is so much but in some situations happens, like the sunderer, some times you can sell it 500 but now is always in 300, but this is acceptable since is pvp and really not much players care that cards?.

I don't know bro, i freel you are breaking the escence of the game only to keep happy some players, but i know the answer to that, "if we change that to make happy to othe little group of players will be the same, we choice to keep this little group of people happy and try to get new pvp players".

I feel you literally surrender about pvp. 

And I don't wanna talk about like "maibie if you change the meta buffing or changing mechanics", "maibie if you create new modes".......because I know is really hard and I really dont care that topic, i'm just talking about how free pvp decks affect to the buy of cards because they don't need to buy them now.

I don't know, I thing yet the best way is keep the free pvp decks but only with 2 upgrades, that's good, you can test everything, and bad players will lose with or without the 3 update, but you open the little option to "if you enjoy it, if you wanna go to the top, buy the cards.

I understand that if you work to keep the players happy they will suport more the proyect but that feels like you just surrender.

Thank you for your answer guys, i'll keep in mind that situation now when i buy cards.

Hope some day pve players get too free pve decks because you wanna support the new players, so is nescesary, or will be a little contradictory xD

 

 

 

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"making the best way possible to get new players to pvp?" That's exacly the case.

Achievement suggestion: "-> Reach 60 minutes que time without finding an opponent " - RadicalX.
Open stress was less popular than Official Release, however, it have shown importance of supporting PvP modes to make them playable.

 

PvP is in too awfull spot to think about making people "happy".  Awfull maps, lack of balance, lack of proper match-making, one medium mistake often loses game, it's an awfull RTS experience. The gamemode was decently popular just after release, but now it's declining once more.

Being new in Battleforge doesn't exacly mean being n00b, one could be experienced player from another RTS. But how would you like to explain to people:

  • Hey, cool that you play with us, but even if you face opponent with similar skill, you will be crushed because you have inferior upgrades. Fear not! If you play for 2-3 months everyday*, you will be able to become a competitive player and have any chance against similar opponents! So by playing PvP without proper grind, you're technically accepting 70-100% lose ratio. Yey!         *observation made by Eirias - it took him around three months to play PvP game on reasonable level in Open Stress.

Adding grind to be viable player, on top of current PvP experience would add more frustration. What for? Why would you like to lock a gamemode behind 90 in-game hours prequisite, that requires you to give up on card collection for PvE mode?

 

As I mentioned earlier, free PvP decks are aimed at players who do not focus half of their lifetime on PvP, but are generating popularity for the gamemode. If you take away upgrades and charges, then players like me will leave the gamemode for good, since they see no point in buying 4 charges of Frost Mage, Ice Guardian and Homesoil to be viable on T1 only. In open stress I have lost dozens on PvP matches because, I had no more War Eagle charges, since I could not afford more cards. I do not wish anyone such experience. There are more players like me, or those who play PvP only from time to time, without a lot of free time. You could say "why we should care about almost not active players? If they're not devoted, they shouldn't play at all", but should it be the case, to even further decrease player base?

I wouldn't call free strong PvP decks a "surrender", more rather "accepting reality and doing what is possible to improve current situation".

 

In PvE, you don't need a perfect deck to face your opponent, and you can easily adjust difficulty, and the gamemode is not on edge of extinction. You have no such handicap in PvP, because for every won match, there is one lost. In my opinion maps like Blight Expert are easier than PvP experience. For new player support, achievement progress is a great help, and free PvE decks are already strong and viable. In such comparisions I always wonder, are people jealous of almost dead gamemode?

 

And you are right, you said about Amii Monument as a free PvE card. Yes, giving it as free for 100% of community would make it lose it's value on marketplace.  PvP is a minority, which has no large influence on marketplace, and marketplace is subject to other more significant factors, like supply and demand, and inflation.

Edited by Dallarian
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2 hours ago, EngelDunkel said:

In that way too, a lot of new players have problems with pve modes, where are the free pve decks for there?, and i know is a huge difference, you guys are telling me is just a few players who play pvp but, thats all the reason to make free pvp decks with full upgrades?.

The difference is that PvE is not "unfair" if you don't have the right cards. Every expert map can be beaten with common cards--even the free starter cards. Losing against a computer is different than losing against another player.

Imagine if every PvE game was  "race" against another player. If your "opponent" was faster than you, you automatically lost the game. How soon would a new player quit, if they had to play this situation against someone with full cards and full upgrades? But PvE is not like this, so there is no need to give cards.



Furthermore, PvE gives a lot more rewards than PvP. Why should a PvP player be forced to play PvE to get the upgrades he wants? No one is forcing PvE players to play PvP, but PvP players have to play PvE to get gold.

In PvP, no matter how good you are, at a certain point you can't win without upgrades. Imagine you were the #1 player 10 years ago or a really good Starcraft player, and you want to try this game again. For a few games you will be rusty, but you'd be winning very soon. Except that you don't have upgrades. Many old PvP players quit in the open stress test because they didn't want to grind pve to play pvp. The playerbase is 10x higher than it was before free pvp decks.

2 hours ago, EngelDunkel said:

"almost nothing" but was affected, some cards lose 10, 20, 50 bfp maybie 50 is so much but in some situations happens, like the sunderer, some times you can sell it 500 but now is always in 300, but this is acceptable since is pvp and really not much players care that cards?.

You really think this change was due to PvP? I bought enlightenment for 900 bfp after the server restart. Now it's like triple that. Shadow phoenix dropped from like 300 to 150. You can't really compare prices like this. There are more players who just want to collect all cards, than there are who play a lot of PvP. As the game goes on and player start to have most cards, you'll probably see cards like sunderer increase in price just because people want to have all cards.

Prices will evolve simply because of the total bfp in players pockets, as well as their current objectives. Surge of light and windweavers were extremely expensive early on because everyone wanted them for PvE, and now they have them and the prices dropped. The change to PvP cards is no more significant than these changes, so I think it's safe to say that the free pvp decks had no impact on the market.

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Economy is irrelevant compared to balance. Pvp is a mode incapable of functioning without everyone being on a level playing field in card stats. No matter how long or eloquently you try to argue to get rid of free pvp decks it's pointless because no argument you can make will be worth essentially removing the pvp mode all together.

Edited by Torban
SunWu and Metagross31 like this
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  • 2 weeks later...

Oh god, i totally forgor this post.

@Dallarian @Eirias bros, you are been so radical, you are going to the extreme of the situation, a situation where you are playing a game with the top 10 players in a game of 20 mins, but in this situation, if the player wanna be in the top, they need to work for it, why they dont need to play the game to get cards?, you dont need all the upgrades to start to play, for example, do you know how much times ive used juggernaut in a pvp game?, like 1 in one year of game, in some cards of course you will spam, but this is part of the game.

You are telling me "poor guys they need to play the game to get cards and gold to play pvp" why you surrender at pvp and go for the easy way to give them free pvp decks when you can change the rewards. 

For example, "poor guys they need to play the game to get  gold":

Change the rewards in pvp, first, for each rank you get, you win more gold, as higher the rank = more gold for rank, you can make a week mission too, for example, play 30 games pvp and get 80k gold and maybie some  X bfp, (i dont think the bfp are nescesary), i think it's not crazy because you can get like 120k in speedruns in the same time if the pvp games are like 3:00min to 4:00min per game, maybie 30 games is hard, but u can divide it in 3, a upgraded quest per week, but ofcourse they need to be ranked and at least 3 mins duration, the problem with the beta pvp quest was players join at pvp stay afk and then surrender, is something to work and thats why i think bfp are not nescesary as reward  but i think is better than surrender at pvp.

And other think that could be cool is, why not change the pvp icons, i mean, when you see the pvp gold or plat icon is cool but mheeee is bored, why not a little change there, maybie a border like in leage of leyends, or a big change in the icons, maybie new ranks, the system is like 2 silvers, 2 golds, 2 plats, the shield ones and the circle ones, why not add diamond, "dragonslayer" with an icon of a dragon, idk, make shiny the pvp

 

@aggressor

And of course the balance, as i said i really dont wanna talk about that but, you can work in an easy solution of balance with pvp enviroment design, for example:

Ensnaring roots, omg i hate that card, my enforcers cry in a corner every time my enemy use it xD, that card is broken and unbalanced, how is posible you can stop the whole enemy team with 45 power, but in pve is good, is a good sinergy, good cc etc, why not just make a system where that card, when you play in pvp enviroments only will root 3 units, that kind of enviroments exist in a lot of games, in world of warcraft each time you fight with other player the stats and talents change, in league of leyends the best example is urf, the mode where cds, haste, base stats etc change.

 

I really think you guys are just surrender at pvp, is like "poor guys, they need to play like the other guys to get gold and cards to play pvp, lets give them full upgrades, why not, who cares the pvp".

You can't  breake the scense of the game to keep happy some players. You need real solutions and making free full upgrades is not a good solution.

On 3/6/2021 at 5:44 PM, Eirias said:

You really think this change was due to PvP? I bought enlightenment for 900 bfp after the server restart. Now it's like triple that. Shadow phoenix dropped from like 300 to 150. You can't really compare prices like this. There are more players who just want to collect all cards, than there are who play a lot of PvP. As the game goes on and player start to have most cards, you'll probably see cards like sunderer increase in price just because people want to have all cards.

And coming back to the prices, you can´t compare the price of a card when the card can be used in pvp and when the card is useless because you can get a full upgrade version and you will buy it only to collect. You are breaking that little chance, where the card have that extra use, now the pvp cards are only for collection, thats the problem, I can´t understand how is posible u can´t see it, the prize and demand is down for the free pvp decks, and you can use the excuse of "the pvp is not so popular" but exist, it's been afected, you are breaking a part and scence of the game only because some players don't wanna play the game to play pvp.

A real solution is, change the rewards, change the balance, change the  visual of the pvp to be more exating, make is as when you see a player pvp with a mark or a super icon you burn in jealous and wanna get it.

I'm still think, for 3 time, players don't need a full upgraded deck, if you wanna play in the top, you need to work for it. You need to pay for it, because that's the escence of the game.

But I can see is more easy just to surrender and give them free full upgraded decks, who cares the pvp, who cares that sweet experience that means the work for upgrades, for gold, for experience, for that bittersweet frustration when you lose for X or Y.

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  • 4 weeks later...

I have mixed feelings about the free PvP decks aswell. On the one hand, it´s a great addition for new players so that they don´t have to grind to not be in a disadvantage straight away. On the other hand, my mate who is completely new to bf since I just introduced it to him, didn´t even want to play the free decks, because he got some cool cards from Boosters and wanted to use them. Makes sense since he just learned how to use his new own cards and didn´t want to read throught all cards in the free PvP decks, but rather jump into play. Only to see he gets crushed by enemies with stronger decks. We tried 2v2 PvP a few times later also with the free decks but since he had no idea what the free deck was about we got crushed every time and afterwards he basically moved on to play only PvE.
For me it seems that the main or only Problem is, that there are not enought PvP players to compete against - if there would be many new players who are like my mate, they could clash with their own cards and learn by actually playing. Right now there aren´t even players in the sparrings, and we would wait forever there. 

 

Also since it is a collecting card game, I would not want to remove the collecting card aspect from the PvP game only to make it a little more appealing. A.e. if we look at Hearthstone, if you want to get good you need good cards too - I´d like to see that in Battleforge aswell. Everybody likes to show off his awesome cards in Battles vs other Players after all, right? :D

 

My personal suggestion would be, to remove the free decks but virtually upgrade your decks to u3 while in a pvp match, but considering your own card charges. That way new players could still play their own cards they recently got and know how they work, but would not be in a big disadvantage due to missing upgrades. Would make sence since you basically only get gold and upgrades by playing PvE, but also get bfp to buy the cards you need for PvP by playing PvP. So a PvP-only player should not have to care for Upgrading all his cards to u3 if he doesn´t want to.

Don´t know if that would be technically possible tho.

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