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It may be quite "unpolular" question - but anyone ever considered to fix it to work as intended?

While speedruning was always part of BF - Decomposer makes some maps a... vulture breeding grounds ;) Today only i saw 2 BH games with 3 feed players waiting for any runner to carry them...
Guns or Riddle can also be abused with that... but they need a little work even from feeders mostly. On BH with Deco... itss all about spawning 5 units and maybe casting one spell/structure.

I knew that there was another thread about speeds... but i don't see problem in speed alone... but simply ask about exact card ;) Mostly because this runs can generate... bad habits and generate many high rank noob plers that fails in other missions - when you are convinced that "this high rank player must knew what to do".  Temptation to do easy run instead more fun but longer one is also a factor that can bore players and make them leave.

regards ;)

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Not a PvE main by far, but I don't really mind people finding fun combos for otherwise hardly used cards and making the best of them. They use/abuse the mechanic to make something otherwise impossible, which just means a lot of thought went into it and to me that's a signal the game overall is doing well. There is meta, and there is offmeta. It's fun seeing a card otherwise rarely used at all to do great things, so I'm all for leaving things as is, and let people play with it or find a new offmeta strat to beat this

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Previously i was undecided on this topic, but these days lots of ,,feeders searching for runner'' messages make me think a change might do more good than bad.

arguments against a change:

- Obviously decomposer plays a big part in speedrunning on a lot of multiplayer maps, changing it would mean one of the most significant shifts in this category ever. No speedrunner myself but it seems like most of them seem to oppose this change.

arguments for a change:

- Card description indicates that the current decomposing of allied units is just an oversight and not a wanted feature.

- BH decomposer speedruns have somehow gained lots of poplarity. It lets new players solve an expert map without having the necessary skill or knowledge. Eventhough this doesn't have an immediate negative effect on other players i can't imagine that this is healthy for the playerbase in the long term.

- Speedrunners will have to develope new - probably more interesting - tactics. Formerly highly optimized speedruns will enter a new post-decomposer era.

Edit: less griefing also, but thats rare anyway in my experience

Edited by SunWu
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play alone king of the giants and u see that the orb placement is not always changing

changing decomposer is not solving the bad harvest gold farming, it just slows it down by a few min, a simple solution would be to lower the gold income by additive 30% per each player that is not going t4 there, instantly making the run lose all value (gold reward dropping to 400 instead of 4000) for new players, but remaining a fun speedrun option to experienced players

Metagross31 likes this
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Lets put it this way.

Decomposer only makes  whats possible faster.

It does not remove the orbs already there.

 

Remove it, we get spammed "Guns of lyr farming"

Kings of Giants rotate runs!

Insert____ map   duo Gold farm

 

It changes nothing because a new efficient spam method replaces it.

In fact, I've already seen many already.

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Yeah, same here.
Just fixing decomp won't solve the issue that ppl will exploit the everloving s**t out of any map to get gold faster here.

You want to fix the issue with ppl doing that?
-> Fix the overall imbalance in this game that forces ppl to rely on exploits to solve maps
-> Then fix possible exploits used
-> Restructure the current resource system to make it actually rewarding/useful

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I wonder - is there really any card/tactic that enables 3/4 players to do ,,nothing'' and still win expert like decomposer? I'm asking cause none comes to my mind, though some of you make it sound like there are similar things. Gold farming is one thing, spamming one unit next to a decomposer to win expert in a few minutes is another.

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the 3 players just feeding,  is really only bad harvest where it applies cause in the first 4 min almost no attacks come in and all players are conveniently starting at the same location. 

taking the second prominent gold farming map guns of lyr and suddenly the other positions also have to do some work.

Edited by LEBOVIN
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5 hours ago, SunWu said:

I wonder - is there really any card/tactic that enables 3/4 players to do ,,nothing'' and still win expert like decomposer? I'm asking cause none comes to my mind, though some of you make it sound like there are similar things. Gold farming is one thing, spamming one unit next to a decomposer to win expert in a few minutes is another.

You seen the puzzling rankings of multiplayer maps done by 1 player?

 

Yes, we use one of those exploit runner strats, except cheese it even faster with 3 more t1 players. It's just as lazy easy and the difference in time can be as small as 3-5 minutes more than a decomposer run. Heck, Die to Play already runs an example of this type of Gold run regularly for fun that isn't Guns of Lyr. It isn't hard to do, you mostly sit there spawning units, and doesn't use decomposer.

 

I'm pretty sure people would start complaining about these runs becoming infamously popular after a decomposer change.

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1 hour ago, chickennoodler said:

I'm pretty sure people would start complaining about these runs becoming infamously popular after a decomposer change.

Well if that's the case something like Lebovin's gold reduction concept might indeed be a better solution.

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12 hours ago, chickennoodler said:

 

 

Yes, we use one of those exploit runner strats, except cheese it even faster with 3 more t1 players. It's just as lazy easy and the difference in time can be as small as 3-5 minutes more than a decomposer run. Heck, Die to Play already runs an example of this type of Gold run regularly for fun that isn't Guns of Lyr. It isn't hard to do, you mostly sit there spawning units, and doesn't use decomposer.

 

 

Would you care to elaborate?

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On 2/14/2021 at 1:37 AM, LEBOVIN said:

play alone king of the giants and u see that the orb placement is not always changing

changing decomposer is not solving the bad harvest gold farming, it just slows it down by a few min, a simple solution would be to lower the gold income by additive 30% per each player that is not going t4 there, instantly making the run lose all value (gold reward dropping to 400 instead of 4000) for new players, but remaining a fun speedrun option to experienced players

I think it is an interesting idea for sure, but i am not sure if penalizing people with less than 4 orbs is a good thing. For example i often give away my orbs to newer players on some maps and have decks which reach almost full potential at t3 or t2. When i know a map really well, then it is fun to let the newer players grab orbs and explore and actually take charge orbwise. It is way more entertaining than watching them run for their lives or run behind you. I also vaguely remember maps like dwarven riddle where most of the time and without amii monument involved, expert maps end with not everyone having t4. Another thing is also some ego-shooters out there. I have already seen people "steal" orbs from other players and with such a change there would be a real reason in gold added to the ego-boost some get by grabbing orbs of others and leeroy jenkins their way through the map with batariel, while they let their buddies struggle at low tier lol

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On 2/14/2021 at 1:37 AM, LEBOVIN said:

changing decomposer is not solving the bad harvest gold farming, it just slows it down by a few min...

On Bad Harvest you don't have these additional minutes - as some point you simply must defend the wagon or die. So fixing decomposer - forces one or two players to do their intended work of defending wagon at least few minutes... its MUCH more that feeding 5 units.

and about Comparasion to Guns of Lyr

On speed GoL you need two players with speed decks and two feeders that still can defend few minutes and understand map basics at least. And still without decpomposer Position 1 and 2 are forced to stay alive about 8 min... its not that easy for new players without cards and upgrades.

and finally - indeed most of maps can be done solo (so without decomposer) BUT for many of them it needs time and MUCH higher amount of skill.... and still soloing don't generate feed beggars... or something that in my native language is called "lerned helplesness" - when someone became to lazy to make something at his own.

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Still, at the very *best* this would make good players do rpve and bad players PtD over and over again.
Yes, it is slower, but the balance of PtD is so incredible bad, that players who are able enough to learn how feeding works, would manage there too.
Just good enough to block the waves from reaching the start t1s.. which is all they need to do (honestly some player with a decent deck and good micro could do a map on his own).

You wouldn't shut it off, you'd simply make it a little bit harder and less diverse.

Balance this with the fact that you'd take something away from the player base they like to do and you might end up chasing them away for good.

And to be honest, I see no issue here.
They get gold to upgrade their cards. Big whoop. Sure, not having it makes the resource more valuable and means a bigger time frame in order to reach that next upgrade which then means some long term goals to work towards.
This is not something that would benefit a game like BF, though.
The game lacks content, very much so. The whole reason people can buy upgrades with gold was implemented because the different maps don't give much incentive to play on repeat.
With this the players have at least something they can do. Otherwise they will simply end up doing the maps they can do, getting frustrated doing the same maps over and over again to get the gold/upgrade they want and burn out before even reaching their goal.
Also they don't get like some adavantage over other players since it's mainly PvE and PvP (and PvE) is completly messed thanks to glaring balance issues anyway.

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On 2/15/2021 at 6:18 PM, shroomion said:

I think it is an interesting idea for sure, but i am not sure if penalizing people with less than 4 orbs is a good thing. For example i often give away my orbs to newer players on some maps and have decks which reach almost full potential at t3 or t2. When i know a map really well, then it is fun to let the newer players grab orbs and explore and actually take charge orbwise. It is way more entertaining than watching them run for their lives or run behind you. I also vaguely remember maps like dwarven riddle where most of the time and without amii monument involved, expert maps end with not everyone having t4. Another thing is also some ego-shooters out there. I have already seen people "steal" orbs from other players and with such a change there would be a real reason in gold added to the ego-boost some get by grabbing orbs of others and leeroy jenkins their way through the map with batariel, while they let their buddies struggle at low tier lol

well I added the subcondition that not t4 but the highest orb a player has achieved in the game counts, but for the bad harvest example this would be the same so I omitted it there

Here the full proposal:

Each player in the PvE game that has not reached the higest orb count achieved by any of his teammates will additively reduce the gold income of the entire team by 30%. So as in the case of Bad Harvest, the highest orb count reached is 4 (by the carry), so the 3 T1 feeders will lower the gold income by 30% x 3 = 90% aka the speedrun grants only ~400 instead of ~4000 gold and thus even if played super fast, remains not worth it for gold only.

This way speedrunners that truly play for the sake of speedrun can keep enjoying it and those that just want the gold will be less inclined to only do bad harvest the speedrun way, this solution can also easily be applied to all other maps to make unconditional feeding unprofitable everywhere

And ur last point of players claiming and hording orbs selfishly would be unprofitable for them aswell, as they thus automatically increase the orb count difference to their team mates and the gold penality if a difference exists applies to all team members - new players would quickly avoid such players

Edited by LEBOVIN
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1 hour ago, LEBOVIN said:

well I added the subcondition that not t4 but the highest orb a player has achieved in the game counts, but for the bad harvest example this would be the same so I omitted it there

Here the full proposal:

Each player in the PvE game that has not reached the higest orb count of any of his teammates will additively reduce the gold income of the entire team by 30%. So as in the case of bad harvest, the highest orb count is 4 by the carry, so the 3 feeders will lower the gold income by 30%x3 = 90% aka the speedrun grants only 400 gold instead of 4000 and thus even if played super fast remains not worth it for gold only

this way speedrunners that truely play for the sake of speedrun can keep enjoying it and those that just want the gold will be less inclined to only do bad harvest the speedrun way, this solution can also easily be applied to all other maps to make unconditional feeding unprofitable everywhere

And ur last point of players claiming and hording orbs selfishly would be unprofitable for them aswell, as they thus automatically increase the orb count difference to their team mates and the gold penality if a difference exists applies to all team members - new players would quickly avoid such players

yeah lowering the income for the whole team would make more sense, that part of it is not bad and apparently i did not read it correctly today... however i am still not sure if this is a good solution. I think at least besides dwarven riddle there are other maps which would have to be excluded from this mechanic..i had a ascension run earlier this day where one player lost all orbs right at the end in map number 3 he only managed to barely defend his last one..it would kinda suck if stuff like this would pull down a part of the haul by some percent. Would you not agree? Similar things can happen in GoL iirc. At least that is a map which comes to mind when i think about some final rush after completion..a messy slavemaster expert run with the twilight breaking through at the end and going for orbs can also have the same result.

Edit now that i reread your post: ..highest orb count a player has archieved. Yeah i can see how this is different from "archieved and held the orbs until the end." If getting the orbs and that alone counting no matter if you lose them at the end, was the case then it would not be as bad..might still be a bit weird in some scenarios, where people simply don't manage to build all orbs before it is finished

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A little thing to add to @LEBOVIN's proposal imo:

The maximum orn count achieved should be capped at 4. Otherwise people going for more orbs (e.g. 4orbs+amii mon. or Raven's wns, where more than 4 orbs are needed) would drag down the team, unless everyone goes for more than 4. Just a little detail but imo quite important.

Otherwise I like the suggestion in general

Edited by Metagross31
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On 2/15/2021 at 12:17 AM, DieToPlay said:

Would you care to elaborate?

Dwarf Riddle expert runs. 13-11 mins with randos. 5-6 minutes with a team who

has optimized it.

 

Runner only have has access to 1 teammate, so decomposer removal would matter less.

It's easy enough when you guys know what to do, everyone mostly sits around spawning,

giving ground presence and using spells.

 

If decomposer was gone, most consistent gold runs would probably look similar to this or be Guns of Lyr

*slow speedrun edition with randos.

 

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As I've said before, decomposer doesn't do any harm to anyone;

-If you're a casual player and want to play4fun, don't use it.

-If you're a speed runner and want to play4speed, use it.

Whenever you join a lobby you can see immediately if your team mates are about to use it not, and at worst case you could ask. The rate at which we are getting gold and bfp is already broken, nerfing decomposer isn't going to magically fix it. Even if I never played Bad Harvest speed runs and would only play "normally", I would be finished with all the collection and upgrades within the first 6 months anyway.

In conclusion, I don't understand all this conversation, since whoever wants decomposer to be deleted isn't doing any good and causing only harm just because he doesn't like the card, which doesn't even affect him... and that is kind of self explanatory what kind of a person he is.

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I would fix the the decomposer bug, so that it only targets your own units.

 

It would bring a little more skill into speedrunning. Maybe even add that every position has 4 orbs that they can take, and none of the other positions can take them. Additionally make ami monument and enlightment t4.

 

When you are a new player you do think that a good time is associated with good players, but 85% of the needed time is determined from your deck, your strategy and AI understanding. Basically the last minute decides how well a team has excecuted a map, and not if they were 5 or 10 minutes faster. Although to understand the AI and play around it, does take a little skill.

 

If the campaings would be played properly there would be a little more diversity in ranks, and it would be more incentive to play the maps, cause not everyone could do them easily. Its a little sad, when 1 players who knows what he is doing achieves a better time, then when 4 people know what they are doing, but they play the game instead of feeding.

But then again, if it would be more known that good times do not have to be associated with good players, then it wouldn`t matter in the end. Although it would be nice if you play a map normally in a good way, people could see that you played it well. Maybe there could be 2 rankings, one with every bug abuse possible. And one where you play the map in the casual way, just efficient.

 

Additionally I would add maybe 200 more energy on camapign maps, so that the start isnt so dang slow.

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1 hour ago, Buddelmuddel said:

I would fix the the decomposer bug, so that it only targets your own units.

 

It would bring a little more skill into speedrunning. Maybe even add that every position has 4 orbs that they can take, and none of the other positions can take them. Additionally make ami monument and enlightment t4.

 

When you are a new player you do think that a good time is associated with good players, but 85% of the needed time is determined from your deck, your strategy and AI understanding. Basically the last minute decides how well a team has excecuted a map, and not if they were 5 or 10 minutes faster. Although to understand the AI and play around it, does take a little skill.

 

If the campaings would be played properly there would be a little more diversity in ranks, and it would be more incentive to play the maps, cause not everyone could do them easily. Its a little sad, when 1 players who knows what he is doing achieves a better time, then when 4 people know what they are doing, but they play the game instead of feeding.

But then again, if it would be more known that good times do not have to be associated with good players, then it wouldn`t matter in the end. Although it would be nice if you play a map normally in a good way, people could see that you played it well. Maybe there could be 2 rankings, one with every bug abuse possible. And one where you play the map in the casual way, just efficient.

 

Additionally I would add maybe 200 more energy on camapign maps, so that the start isnt so dang slow.

I'm quite shocked that an experienced player like you is writing nonsense like this.

Do you really think all of this restrictions are going to solve the problem? I can assure you, it's not going to solve anything, more than that, it's going to destroy the game we all love.

Another thing you are completely wrong on is that a good time is not associated with good players. There is tons of replays on YouTube how to do speed runs and yet none has ever even come close to this times.

-Take for example Encounters with Twilight, Coldmind did it in 12 min 10 fricking years ago and still less than 5 players did that time.

-Another example would be my replay of the Treasure Fleet in 15:30 on YouTube, between this time and the No1 spot at the moment is around 40 seconds, and very little difference in the strategy and yet none of the players have done it, unless I told them.

Speed running doesn't lack skill, it's just other players doing claims when they have no clue of the strategies that are being used there. All of you are comparing speed running to only 1 map: Bad Harvest.

It's very sad that I have to defend speed running every single day, otherwise it's going to be gutted for good.

 

The only thing that I would change in the speed running aspect, is that it would be less appealing to new players for Gold/Experience farming.

 

 

Edited by DieToPlay
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1 hour ago, Buddelmuddel said:

It would bring a little more skill into speedrunning. Maybe even add that every position has 4 orbs that they can take, and none of the other positions can take them. Additionally make ami monument and enlightment t4.

  That wouldn't even work for most maps.
For example in PtD the leftmost starting position on each map usually takes the top route, where they find 2 Monuments. To whom should they be designated? Both to the left position or one to another position? But if you assign it to the bottom position, then they wouldn't take the bottom route. If you assign it to any other position, what about the middle route then? The same problem could appear in other maps as well.

1 hour ago, Buddelmuddel said:

When you are a new player you do think that a good time is associated with good players, but 85% of the needed time is determined from your deck, your strategy and AI understanding. Basically the last minute decides how well a team has excecuted a map, and not if they were 5 or 10 minutes faster. Although to understand the AI and play around it, does take a little skill.

If the campaings would be played properly there would be a little more diversity in ranks, and it would be more incentive to play the maps, cause not everyone could do them easily. Its a little sad, when 1 players who knows what he is doing achieves a better time, then when 4 people know what they are doing, but they play the game instead of feeding.

But then again, if it would be more known that good times do not have to be associated with good players, then it wouldn`t matter in the end. Although it would be nice if you play a map normally in a good way, people could see that you played it well. Maybe there could be 2 rankings, one with every bug abuse possible. And one where you play the map in the casual way, just efficient.

  Well, if it is only about deck building and not about skill, who is it, that only a handfull of players have about every single world record speedrun? Shouldn't everyone be able to beat them right away then? I agree, that the last few minutes/seconds make the biggest difference in a speedrun - it is one thing to beat BH in under 4 minutes and something completely different to beat it in ~2:30 - but that's the same for speedruns in every game that exists. Everyone can get a time of around 5 minutes in Super Mario Bros. after just a bit of practice, but only a few people can get 5 seconds lower than that. And why is that? Because of skill and dedication. It is the same in Battleforge as well.

1 hour ago, Buddelmuddel said:

Additionally I would add maybe 200 more energy on camapign maps, so that the start isnt so dang slow.

That's a completely different topic, so maybe create a thread for it on its own.

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I think we have a problems with terms here. Some are speaking of speedrunning and some are speaking about speedrunning - but you mean complete different things.

I would rather call the one speedrunning and the other farmrunning or something like that. And ofc all farming tactics are based on speedrun tactics, mostly in the way that is a most easy version of the speedrun.

However, this exists in almost all games I've played, and if an instance/dungeon whatever is disarmed, then the next best farm possibility is sought. There will always be players who just want to have everything as fast as possible and fall back on such tactics.
Unfortunately, I think that the intersection with the people who scream after a short time "I've seen everything,I have everything and I need new content" is very large.(assumption of me) They have seen nothing and know as much about the game as John Snow does.
But in my experience... you can't really do anything about this, that has more to do with attitude :)

Btw - nothing against a bit of farming from time to time. But of course also have to smile a bit too when 3 feeders are looking for their runner :P

 

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On 2/17/2021 at 7:32 PM, Volin said:

I think we have a problems with terms here. Some are speaking of speedrunning and some are speaking about speedrunning - but you mean complete different things.

(...)But of course also have to smile a bit too when 3 feeders are looking for their runner

Yes. I'm full of respect to real speedrunners and solo gamers that can make GoL or Harvest - Solo.
And i see 3 feeders looking for carry like a beggar mechanics that is toxic to society that want to have fun.

Its really hard to play normal Bad Harvest on expert currently. Fortunately its still possible to play normal GoL.

Edit - 30 min waiting for normal Bad  Harvest today... and at least two players amazed that i want to do it without speed/feed... one almost considered me retarded :P
 

Edited by Draconnor
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