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The marctplace should not be a economic simulation!!!!!


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Resist the beginings.

This dicribes the situation. One Example today at noon it was possibe to buy  the card "Death Ray" for 50 BF-points whit buyout. At this time I couldt buy this because I want to make my quests at evening. Now it is evening (4 hours later) and the Death Ray costs 399 in Buyout and 105 starting bit. What was happens? Two players bought out the hole stock of this card and put it back on maketplace for 399 buyout and 105 starting bit. Nice profit for this two players (together they offer this card 26 times for this moon price) on the shoulders of clueless players. When i had not looked in the maketplace today at noon, I would be one of this clueless players and I would have bouht this totaly overpriced card.  The possibillity to buy/sell  a unlimited amount of a card should be restcicted, becaus it leads to an insane inflation of the card prices only for the profit of some few on the back on the other players which have to invest more and more hours of gamplay to earn Bfpoint to pay the artificially overpriced prices. 

The most simple solution for this problem woud be that a player is only allowed to  buy a card on marketplace  (for example "Death Ray") If he has the card not moren than 4 times. For example: When you have "Deaht Ray" four times, you cant buy this card further more on marketplace. Only when you sell one of the card ( then you have 3 and so you are under the limit of 4) you can buy one on marktplace.

I think this would be a good and simple solution for this problem.

 

 

 

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I mean most of the time it is only a short burst of price increase, if you wait a couple of hours or a day the prices go almost back to the same range as they were 

You can see they are trying to manipulate even the crappiest card which cost 3 BFP and next day it is sold by 1 -2 players for 400 BFP each, but they fail miserable due the low demand

We have the technology now to even check back price history with tools like SMJ it was non exsistent back in the days, so overall I think price manipulation is barely a working and with a bit of patience and research you cannot be fooled at all

As a short note, there are also normal sellers via chat and discord where you can find reasonable traders as well if the marketplace is going the silly way with your card :)

 

 

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Capitalism just made them its mental slaves...have sympathy lol. They propably don't have anything else going for them. Since it is just a game and no one has to suffer real life consequences we can simply lean back, laugh and play sunken temple. You could write a list of their names and simply build a portal next to their orbs each time you see them on the same map as you. or accidentially trigger your chaos knight ability on a harvester standing next to it..mistakes can be made haha XD

*Next message propably coming from one of those people: "Griefing is not allowed! This is a reportable offense!"*

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Economics (/ɛkəˈnɒmɪks, iːkə-/) is the social science that studies how people interact with value; in particular, the production, distribution, and consumption of goods and services.[1]

In other words, economics is attempt to understand what is happening with prices in different environments, and Battleforge is environment with production and consuption of both goods and services. I dare a statement that economics is a simulation based on reality in order to predict many, including Battleforge marketplace.
Can you please explain me why knowledge should be forbidden within Skylords Reborn environment?

Your Death Ray example: Thanks to freedom of market, the action is possible to make, and everyone can make such risk. At my time of writing Death Ray is at 95 BFP buyout and is slowly going back to it's usual price. Even with market manipulation, the price comes back to it's usual. Furnace of Flesh is a great example of that. 5 pages of Furnace of Flesh for 500 BFPs was trully impressive, however it took one day for people to restore old, and right now even cheaper price than before 18th Jan.  People who do market manipulation will profit only if. other people buy their cards. Therefore any market manipulation is a risk, and massivly buying a card automaticly freezez large amounts of money.

If you are looking for a particular card, you will be familiar with it's usual price and able to compare prices. Maze's SMJ is great for cards comparision and let you know how prices change over time. Buying in unstable environment like this is risky, however suggested solution will not help you. I can think of workarounds right now, so even with more complex system there will be ways for determined players to continue their procedeer. While I do not find it ethical to sell normal cards for price of Promo cards, or worse affinities for price of better ones, it's a good live lesson - be careful for yourself, because nobody will do that for you. Limits on prices would be bad as well - in-game marketplace is too dynamic for fixed changes and heavily influenced by many trends.

And about trying to control marketplace, buying cards for 3 BFP and selling them for 10 BFP is evil. But isn't 16k BFPs frozen in 130 copies of Furnace of Flesh a punishment on it's own?
As time goes on, most cards will get cheaper anyway, while most expensive ones will keep on gaining value. It is a result of some interesting phenomena, but ask more clever people than me to explain it.

Edited by Dallarian
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3 hours ago, Dallarian said:

Economics (/ɛkəˈnɒmɪks, iːkə-/) is the social science that studies how people interact with value; in particular, the production, distribution, and consumption of goods and services.[1]

In other words, economics is attempt to understand what is happening with prices in different environments, and Battleforge is environment with production and consuption of both goods and services. I dare a statement that economics is a simulation based on reality in order to predict many, including Battleforge marketplace.
Can you please explain me why knowledge should be forbidden within Skylords Reborn environment?

Your Death Ray example: Thanks to freedom of market, the action is possible to make, and everyone can make such risk. At my time of writing Death Ray is at 95 BFP buyout and is slowly going back to it's usual price. Even with market manipulation, the price comes back to it's usual. Furnace of Flesh is a great example of that. 5 pages of Furnace of Flesh for 500 BFPs was trully impressive, however it took one day for people to restore old, and right now even cheaper price than before 18th Jan.  People who do market manipulation will profit only if. other people buy their cards. Therefore any market manipulation is a risk, and massivly buying a card automaticly freezez large amounts of money.

If you are looking for a particular card, you will be familiar with it's usual price and able to compare prices. Maze's SMJ is great for cards comparision and let you know how prices change over time. Buying in unstable environment like this is risky, however suggested solution will not help you. I can think of workarounds right now, so even with more complex system there will be ways for determined players to continue their procedeer. While I do not find it ethical to sell normal cards for price of Promo cards, or worse affinities for price of better ones, it's a good live lesson - be careful for yourself, because nobody will do that for you. Limits on prices would be bad as well - in-game marketplace is too dynamic for fixed changes and heavily influenced by many trends.

And about trying to control marketplace, buying cards for 3 BFP and selling them for 10 BFP is evil. But isn't 16k BFPs frozen in 130 copies of Furnace of Flesh a punishment on it's own?
As time goes on, most cards will get cheaper anyway, while most expensive ones will keep on gaining value. It is a result of some interesting phenomena, but ask more clever people than me to explain it.

Sounds like a sound argument, but it really is not if you look at the results of a deregulated free enterprize in reality. It is well documented. Also since this is not part of our real world economics, it is a lot easier to even out the chances by regulations which, for example do not allow for a very small group of people to gain a monopoly on a bigger amount of cards. The risk of whch you are speaking is actually there, but the funny part is that this risk is not equally distributed. People who can buy more of a single card deal with a lower risk than those who can not buy the same volume. So even within this very small group of like-minded-people the system favours those who possess more. It is just a game and i generally don't really give a damn about this, but the result will be that while all this is happening, some people will have to save more and more cash to buy certain cards and those people will mostly be new players while the "traders" will collect their promos or newly added cards or whatever is to come. Now before i get some "dirty commi!" statements: I do enjoy the trade in this game. It is part of a trading card game. However there should be limits to prevent certain scenarios imo.

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Simple answer to the poster and everyone complaining about that:   G-R-O-W - U-P

 

 

Next you gonna make the developers ban people for the things that you complain about which frankly you have 0 understanding of. 

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Some time ago i was praising parasite swarm in the strategy chat for how you can steal stuff in pve expert maps with it. 10 minutes later, all copies of the card were bought off the market and placed at a much higher price by the same person and then i got a message from a new player who told me he just paid 900something bfp for the card..i instantly felt guilty that i triggered this BS somehow. The same stuff happened after i invented my satanael deck. The moment some "clever" person observes a card being praised in the strat chat, they begin to smell blood lol.

On a sidenote: Praising the mighty and sexy Morklay Trap did not trigger any price increase ever x_x maybe noone wants to deal with buying the 1000 copies of it on the market^^

11 minutes ago, RayG said:

Simple answer to the poster and everyone complaining about that:   G-R-O-W - U-P

 

 

Next you gonna make the developers ban people for the things that you complain about which frankly you have 0 understanding of. 

Insult? Why go so low? Now that is a solid basis for discussion and it certainly shows what an adult you are lol

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45 minutes ago, Mynoduesp said:

I'll just read, no point in arguing here.

Hihi, seems I am too often too rude, if you think I want to see you arguing :D

10 hours ago, Dallarian said:

As time goes on, most cards will get cheaper anyway, while most expensive ones will keep on gaining value. It is a result of some interesting phenomena, but ask more clever people than me to explain it.

My shouting was more for your expertise, as I can barely explain in my native language that above opposite effects of luxury goods rising in price due to inflation and mass goods falling in price at the same time.

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7 hours ago, RayG said:

Simple answer to the poster and everyone complaining about that:   G-R-O-W - U-P

^ this.

When i see multiple exclamation marks in one sentence, I usually expect incoherent, immature ramblings . I didn't get disappointed. Again. It's amazing how well this works.

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2 minutes ago, Danol said:

When i see multiple exclamation marks in one sentence

Btw can a mod possibly redeem us here and iron out the typos and delete some exclamation marks. My inner Monk freaks out :D. I mean just the topic ^^

Edited by Volin
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here's another hot take that is bound to be unpopular:

Buying out a card while it's low and marking up to sell high is a risk that rarely works out, because normal market forces will drive the price back down quicker than you can cash out on the risk.  As such, the successful traders don't buy out cards to artificially drive up prices.  They buy when it's smart to do so-  when the price is naturally low- and patiently wait to re-seed the market when it will pay off - when the price is naturally high.

As such, the traders ARE regulating the market, in a good way-  They're keeping your valuable cards up in price, and you want that, because you want your cards to be worth something.  They're also keeping the obscenely high prices down: when some joker buys out the market, that's when your successful patient traders are going to come back in, undercut them, and make their profit-  at a more reasonable price. 

So the successful traders are tending the market like a garden for everyone's benefit-  they're the ones weeding it and trimming back overgrowth.

 

-I'm expecting the retort: "I don't want my card prices high!  I don't need my cards to be valuable,  I'd be ok with my cards being cheap if it meant other cards would be cheap."

-the answer to that is:  you're playing the wrong game, then.  The random nature of the boosters and the fact that there is a marketplace at all is essential to what this game is, at its core: a ccg.  If you don't like it, there are other great RTSes that have no market element.

 

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14 minutes ago, KhaorvaK said:

-the answer to that is:  you're playing the wrong game, then.  The random nature of the boosters and the fact that there is a marketplace at all is essential to what this game is, at its core: a ccg.  If you don't like it, there are other great RTSes that have no market element.

 

Sorry, but this answer is plain wrong, it is first and foremost a RTS game, the CCG aspect is just a necessary evil to be able to play the game in all its glory.

Now you can rant back if you want claiming that grinding like crazy to get an excellent deck should take weeks and weeks (or even months!) is the way this game should be "played".

No, I say stop the imprisonment of cards, they deserve to be free!

// Ponni

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11 minutes ago, Ponni said:

Sorry, but this answer is plain wrong, it is first and foremost a RTS game, the CCG aspect is just a necessary evil to be able to play the game in all its glory.

Now you can rant back if you want claiming that grinding like crazy to get an excellent deck should take weeks and weeks (or even months!) is the way this game should be "played".

No, I say stop the imprisonment of cards, they deserve to be free!

// Ponni

I mean, you can think that, but you're wrong :)

The game is and always has been a hybrid RTS/CCG.   There is no "necessary evil."  It's what makes the game unique and it's what brought the playerbase.  No ranting necessary. 

If this makes the game "evil"  to you, then I'm not joking that you're playing the wrong game.   That's like willingly playing MTG and complaining that the game is P2W.  -pointing out the obvious nature of the game that has been baked into it from it's inception does not change the obvious nature of the game.  Play it or don't :P

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It does not sound too bad, that you cannot buy more then 4 cards a day, to prevent this.

 

In old battleforge I did try to buy out ultra rare cards, with no value and to see if they will get value this way over time. I guess I just didnt offer them for 100 times the price i did buy them for. But all in all it does not seem to help the game if this mechanic is allowed.

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16 minutes ago, Ponni said:

Sorry, but this answer is plain wrong, it is first and foremost a RTS game, the CCG aspect is just a necessary evil to be able to play the game in all its glory.

Now you can rant back if you want claiming that grinding like crazy to get an excellent deck should take weeks and weeks (or even months!) is the way this game should be "played".

No, I say stop the imprisonment of cards, they deserve to be free!

// Ponni

You are wrong in my view. Battleforge is first of all a card collection game. It is RTS as well, but a very poor one.
Normal, successful RTS games do not hide your tech tree behind grind and paywall.

If all cards were allowed, I believe the game would be more boring, and card gathering aspect is very important to keep activity. In RTS aspect Battleforge does not have a lot of to offer - very little PvE content and poor PvP mode. It has great ideas and awesome base for mechanics, but it did not receive enough love during initial development.
Atleast thanks to excitiment from discovering new cards, there is a bit more live in the game. For example deciding between buying cheaper card than can still fill a role, or saving for more expensive and stronger other card.

If we had access to all meta things from the start, we wouldn't even look at half of cards. If many gets get redesign, and we get more PvE content, then diversity would be great and unique experience. However, a lot of development must happen before fraction of this enter the game.

Edited by Dallarian
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31 minutes ago, KhaorvaK said:

here's another hot take that is bound to be unpopular:

Buying out a card while it's low and marking up to sell high is a risk that rarely works out, because normal market forces will drive the price back down quicker than you can cash out on the risk.  As such, the successful traders don't buy out cards to artificially drive up prices.  They buy when it's smart to do so-  when the price is naturally low- and patiently wait to re-seed the market when it will pay off - when the price is naturally high.

As such, the traders ARE regulating the market, in a good way-  They're keeping your valuable cards up in price, and you want that, because you want your cards to be worth something.  They're also keeping the obscenely high prices down: when some joker buys out the market, that's when your successful patient traders are going to come back in, undercut them, and make their profit-  at a more reasonable price. 

So the successful traders are tending the market like a garden for everyone's benefit-  they're the ones weeding it and trimming back overgrowth.

 

-I'm expecting the retort: "I don't want my card prices high!  I don't need my cards to be valuable,  I'd be ok with my cards being cheap if it meant other cards would be cheap."

-the answer to that is:  you're playing the wrong game, then.  The random nature of the boosters and the fact that there is a marketplace at all is essential to what this game is, at its core: a ccg.  If you don't like it, there are other great RTSes that have no market element.

 

Now tell me what happens when the "successful traders" buy out all the cards which they think are at a low price at the moment? You said they will not artificially drive up prices, but the result is that only those cards are left which are at a higher price. Look, i am more or less an amateur in this field&did not study this stuff, but the only ways i can think of right now how to influence a "natural" price for something on a fully unregulated market is by messing with either demand or supply. If you change the supply, by buying cards off the market, you clearly influence the price by changing the value in the equation. If you generate a higher demand by advertising a card and change the supply by creating an artificial shortage, it is very likely you will profit. Every idiot with a big enough pool of ressources can do it. This is however not a service to the rest of the participants of the market, it is clearly a service to yourself. This is in my eyes in the given environment absolutely fine, as long as it does not spiral out of control, where newbs practically have to work for those who work the market to get their decks together. I think there is a certain selfregulating force going on here IF there is a healthy competition doing the same, but trying to sell this as a service to the community is going a bit too far lol.

The example which i wrote above and which actually happened, is clear evidence that seen from a financial standpoint, those "jokers", as you called them, are also your "successful traders". There were 5 parasite swarms ranging from, 130 to 150, he/she(lol) bought them all off the market after i unintentionally raised the demand, then sold at least one for 900 bfp. Even if he sells the rest for the price which it had before, he just made 2 boosters, or half of a bad promo worth of bfp on the back of a newb who did not know better ^^ All you really need is a bit of unused BFP and enough selfishness to pull it off, when the opportunity arises. Quite funny that *parasite swarm* was really the card, where such an extreme example happened haha

There is nothing to defend here. Wanting to make profit is human nature and it is nothing to be ashamed of and part of the fun in this game to many people. That is why society in real life tries to invent systems to put this trait to good use and to keep the potential and obvious damage it can do to such a low amount that everyone who is relevant to the system still wants to take part. So far this thread is merely raising the question if further steps are needed to even out chances. Your point falls apart as soon as we talk about cards which exist only in a very limited amount or as soon as someone accumulated enough wealth to eclipse his competitors by brute force. That is why i think something like one of the suggested solutions can at least make it harder for the latter.

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10 minutes ago, KhaorvaK said:

I mean, you can think that, but you're wrong :)

The game is and always has been a hybrid RTS/CCG.   There is no "necessary evil."  It's what makes the game unique and it's what brought the playerbase.  No ranting necessary. 

If this makes the game "evil"  to you, then I'm not joking that you're playing the wrong game.   That's like willingly playing MTG and complaining that the game is P2W.  -pointing out the obvious nature of the game that has been baked into it from it's inception does not change the obvious nature of the game.  Play it or don't :P

I have not claimed the game to be evil, only that the CCG aspect is a "necessary evil", e.g. something you need to do that you do not want to do to reach somewhere you want to be. Because it is a pain to actually get somewhere in this game. To me the CCG only hinders people from actually playing the game with all options available. Why is that bad and why do I have to choose from playing or not playing? I want to play a burning Batariel warped into a camp obliterating it in seconds! 

Actually, since re-release I am pushing 100+ hours until date and now finally again starting to have some nice decks to play with...with that said and in the speed I am picking up cards now it will take me maybe 300 hours to get where I want to be. Crazy amount of time I would say.

 

11 minutes ago, Dallarian said:

You are wrong in my view. Battleforge is first of all a card collection game. It is RTS as well, but a very poor one.
Normal, successful RTS games do not hide your tech tree behind grind and paywall.

If all cards were allowed, I believe the game would be more boring, and card gathering aspect is very important to keep activity. In RTS aspect Battleforge does not have a lot of to offer - very little PvE content and poor PvP mode. It has great ideas and awesome base for mechanics, but it did not receive enough love during initial development.
Atleast thanks to excitiment from discovering new cards, there is a bit more live in the game. For example deciding between buying cheaper card than can still fill a role, or saving for more expensive and stronger other card.

If we had access to all meta things from the start, we wouldn't even look at half of cards. If many gets get redesign, and we get more PvE content, then diversity would be great and unique experience. However, a lot of development must happen before fraction of this enter the game.

Twice in the game's history I have grinded my way to a complete collection. It will happen a third time I can promise you. Also, with time everybody in the game with perseverance enough will be like Scrooge McDuck, right? Why drag it out?

I disagree on your statement that this is a very poor RTS game, to me this is one of the best RTS games ever, perhaps my experience in the RTS world is a bit limited but the gameplay with all the combos available, to that considering, with what you say above, the limited content it is amazing.

So, I believe there is no need to hide anything behind grinding and pay-walls, the RTS part is as good as it can be. And I know I am right, in my view. ;)

// Ponni

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5 minutes ago, shroomion said:

Now tell me what happens when the "successful traders" buy out all the cards which they think are at a low price at the moment? You said they will not artificially drive up prices, but the result is that only those cards are left which are at a higher price. Look, i am more or less an amateur in this field&did not study this stuff, but the only ways i can think of right now how to influence a "natural" price for something on a fully unregulated market is by messing with either demand or supply. If you change the supply, by buying cards off the market, you clearly influence the price by changing the value in the equation. If you generate a higher demand by advertising a card and change the supply by creating an artificial shortage, it is very likely you will profit. Every idiot with a big enough pool of ressources can do it. This is however not a service to the rest of the participants of the market, it is clearly a service to yourself. This is in my eyes in the given environment absolutely fine, as long as it does not spiral out of control, where newbs practically have to work for those who work the market to get their decks together. I think there is a certain selfregulating force going on here IF there is a healthy competition doing the same, but trying to sell this as a service to the community is going a bit too far lol.

The example which i wrote above and which actually happened, is clear evidence that seen from a financial standpoint, those "jokers", as you called them, are also your "successful traders". There were 5 parasite swarms ranging from, 130 to 150, he/she(lol) bought them all off the market after i unintentionally raised the demand, then sold at least one for 900 bfp. Even if he sells the rest for the price which it had before, he just made 2 boosters, or half of a bad promo worth of bfp on the back of a newb who did not know better ^^ All you really need is a bit of unused BFP and enough selfishness to pull it off, when the opportunity arises. Quite funny that *parasite swarm* was really the card, where such an extreme example happened haha

There is nothing to defend here. Wanting to make profit is human nature and it is nothing to be ashamed of and part of the fun in this game to many people. That is why society in real life tries to invent systems to put this trait to good use and to keep the potential and obvious damage it can do to such a low amount that everyone who is relevant to the system still wants to take part. So far this thread is merely raising the question if further steps are needed to even out chances. Your point falls apart as soon as we talk about cards which exist only in a very limited amount or as soon as someone accumulated enough wealth to eclipse his competitors by brute force. That is why i think something like one of the suggested solutions can at least make it harder for the latter.

I can almost guarantee you that those are not the successful traders.    

-If there are only 1 or two parasite swarms on the market, sure you can buy up those 1 or two and re-list at a higher price. 

-If you have to buy up 3 or more of those parasite swarms, I can almost guarantee you that it won't pay off.  Try it.  You'll be surprised.

Why?  Because the market forces work.  As soon as I buy out 10 parasite swarms to start listing them, and I mark them up for WAY too much, I might sell ONE before the market corrects.  people see that parasite swarm's price is up.  The rest of us traders see that, and start undercutting them, but at a high enough price that we still make a profit.  That guy gets stuck with 10 parasite swarms that he can't move, and the market takes literally hours to correct itself.

 

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