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The marctplace should not be a economic simulation!!!!!


Bruno18

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38 minutes ago, KhaorvaK said:

I can almost guarantee you that those are not the successful traders.    

-If there are only 1 or two parasite swarms on the market, sure you can buy up those 1 or two and re-list at a higher price. 

-If you have to buy up 3 or more of those parasite swarms, I can almost guarantee you that it won't pay off.  Try it.  You'll be surprised.

Why?  Because the market forces work.  As soon as I buy out 10 parasite swarms to start listing them, and I mark them up for WAY too much, I might sell ONE before the market corrects.  people see that parasite swarm's price is up.  The rest of us traders see that, and start undercutting them, but at a high enough price that we still make a profit.  That guy gets stuck with 10 parasite swarms that he can't move, and the market takes literally hours to correct itself.

 

Back when i was younger and played some "free tccgs/mmorpgs(with pay2win-option)" i actually did this stuff a lot to get the gear i wanted. Back then it worked like a charm, especially if you coordinated this stuff with your guild or some other people you could trust. We did not have the cash to get all the good stuff so this was our way to go. Since you can not pump real money in this game it is a bit different to me.

but maybe you are right and the cases myself and others observed are way more rare than we think.

 

37 minutes ago, Metagross31 said:

Man, this thread really makes me want to look left and right without crossing the street.

"look left and right without crossing the street" so this thread makes you stand on the pavement next to the street^^? Alright, you got my attention..even if you don't want it lol

Edited by shroomion
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5 minutes ago, shroomion said:

Back when i was younger and played some "free tccgs/mmorpgs(with pay2win-option)" i actually did this stuff a lot to get the gear i wanted. Back then it worked like a charm, especially if you coordinated this stuff with your guild or some other people you could trust. We did not have the cash to get all the good stuff so this was our way to go. Since you can not pump real money in this game it is a bit different to me.

I think the "no real money option available in Skylords Reborn"  is the key to your statement that makes all the difference here.

 

In those other games, where you can turn USD into BFP, some guy can be frustrated that you listed an item for a ridiculously high amount, but he can just charge his mom's credit card and get it anyway.  There will always be people willing to pay money, even at extortion costs, to get ahead.

 

in Skylords Reborn,  there is a limited amount of BFP going around, and it must be earned, one way or another.  I can't "accidentally/oh well/it's just money"  spend 1k BFP on a parasite swarm.  I mean I can, but if I'm overpaying like that, then it's likely that's all the BFP I had available.  People are more invested in their BFP,  BECAUSE it can't translate to real world cash.    They had to earn it and it can't be wasted and then replaced as easily.

Edited by KhaorvaK
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The marctplace should be an economic simulation.

Wanna ramp up prices? You can. Wanna undercut the others with a low price? You can. Wanna buy all cards and ramp up the price? You can.

All these are viable for a short time, but when the new influx of cards from boosters arrive, prices will adjust. So don't worry about it

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Hi guys,

a big time BF fan here with a professional economic background, so id like to quickly share my thoughts on this topic which im also slightly concerened about.

 

First things first, the current system is actually doing exactly what it is supposed to do: it allows u to exchange ur cards transaction costs free making it very simple for players to try different cards. Despite the opinions here, im sure this is the most newcomer friendly economic system u can find in a game (big part of it is that u cant spend real money).

 

If you'd like to avoid price manipulation or at least make it harder, there are some easy steps to do: reduce costs of gathering information (so price manipulation is easier to detect) and increase transaction costs (making speculation more costly).

1. gathering information: make price history available to all players, so they can make their decision upon the best available information (there is a side for this which is very helpful but im sure the majority of players doesnt know about it)

2. include taxes for puchases, slowing down the amount of transactions. The higher the tax, the lower amount of "investments" will pay out as u have to cover the taxes with the return at least.

3. You could limit the amount of transactions in balancing with point 2, but i think its not necessary here, because its already kinda in the game. The selling system takes some time to use and there is a limit for listings there.

 

These steps would make it harder for price manipulations to appear, though i wouldnt recommend doing that for 1 simple reason. It would benefit the experienced players and be harder for new players to gather a nice pool of cards which is exactly what we dont want. So long story short: the current system is nice for newer players and i think the recent number of players support that claim, im actually a big fan of how you turned out the economy in this game to be.

 

Though there is one very big concern i have and that has to be adressed: price inflation. Its somewhat capped due to fixed booster prices, but i think we can agree that noone of us can really judge when its better to open booster or just buy cards directly, we dont have the necessary information at all time and not a system to calculate that. So its hard to say if fixed booster prices will be able to fully cap price inflation

 

If prices continue to increase while all new players have the same amount of free points per day they can gather, it makes it so that the later u start with the game, the longer it takes to get any given card. I started playing daily with the server reset while i got a couple of friends to start playing since and you can see how much longer the progression takes. While i was able to buy Amii Monument for less thatn 1k, they had to pay 2k for it. If you dont open booster that card alone now took them twice the time to get.

Edited by Klizzix
shroomion, Loriens and Dallarian like this
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Thanks for sharing Klizzix. I would not mind implementing your first option to avoid market manipulation. I am not sure how this would benefit only the experienced players more than the current way of finding out the usual price. How do you come to this conclusion?

It is also good that you brought up the inflation point. A way to recycle unwanted and unsellable cards might be an idea. People might buy more booster when they can recycle cards which have no hope of selling anymore. That would maybe up the amount of the ones which are in demand for the auctionhouse as a byproduct and as such lower the price for those eventually. What do you think?

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Like this?

 

11 minutes ago, shroomion said:

I would not mind implementing your first option to avoid market manipulation.

5 hours ago, Klizzix said:

1. gathering information: make price history available to all players, so they can make their decision upon the best available information (there is a side for this which is very helpful but im sure the majority of players doesnt know about it)

 

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@anoyme0273 Yes just more easy to access. I believe "normal" people do not close or minimize the game to open the browser and check out a website for prices when they just want to get a few cards and play the game in their free time. Only people who are really interested into making bfp via the ah would check that out on a regular basis. Just my personal assumption to this, i know. You think it is possible to link results of this website to the ingame screen? ...Now that i wrote this and read it i think it will not happen anyways. Might be quite some extra work for the devs xD

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38 minutes ago, anonyme0273 said:

Like this?

 

 

 

Yes, that is the side i was referring to. It was very helpful to me as i tracked prices via excel before that. But yeah, this being an outside app, i think not too many ppl are using it (and i think rather players spending a lot of time on the game are using this).

To the side itself, there are some things missing. Most importantly, it is showing the lowest available listing price at any given time. But thats only the supply side. More importantly would be to know the actual selling prices at any given point in time and the quanitiy of sales and supply

 

49 minutes ago, shroomion said:

Thanks for sharing Klizzix. I would not mind implementing your first option to avoid market manipulation. I am not sure how this would benefit only the experienced players more than the current way of finding out the usual price. How do you come to this conclusion?

It is also good that you brought up the inflation point. A way to recycle unwanted and unsellable cards might be an idea. People might buy more booster when they can recycle cards which have no hope of selling anymore. That would maybe up the amount of the ones which are in demand for the auctionhouse as a byproduct and as such lower the price for those eventually. What do you think?

The statement i made about that was for the implementation of all 3 points. For the pricing information, it would be that rather used by the core players who i assume are also wealthier. The more complicated you make a system, the higher is the possible gap between those adapting perfectly and those who arent adapting perfectly to it.

I'd like to say again, that i really like the current system for new players, its easy to get some cards to play with (through achievments) and you can just switch them at any point in time without loosing value. The whole point of my original post was to say that you should not worry too much about the manipulation. One thing i forgot there though would be price ranges for cards. This however would take active observation which is applicable for the size of the game.

 

 

 

 

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34 minutes ago, Klizzix said:

 

Yes, that is the side i was referring to. It was very helpful to me as i tracked prices via excel before that. But yeah, this being an outside app, i think not too many ppl are using it (and i think rather players spending a lot of time on the game are using this).

To the side itself, there are some things missing. Most importantly, it is showing the lowest available listing price at any given time. But thats only the supply side. More importantly would be to know the actual selling prices at any given point in time and the quanitiy of sales and supply

 

The statement i made about that was for the implementation of all 3 points. For the pricing information, it would be that rather used by the core players who i assume are also wealthier. The more complicated you make a system, the higher is the possible gap between those adapting perfectly and those who arent adapting perfectly to it.

I'd like to say again, that i really like the current system for new players, its easy to get some cards to play with (through achievments) and you can just switch them at any point in time without loosing value. The whole point of my original post was to say that you should not worry too much about the manipulation. One thing i forgot there though would be price ranges for cards. This however would take active observation which is applicable for the size of the game.

 

 

 

 

I am not a fan of taxes in games and such, the intention was indeed to simply make it more transparent to new players, and thus harder for people who would otherwise be successful with market-manipulation. The workings of the current system with archievements aiding new players to get their hands on some cards and boosters, plus exchanging them without loss of value was never subject of this discussion and i do completely agree with you in this point as well as not recommending point 2 and 3 of your list posted above. However if you get screwed over by market manipulation as a new player because you are lacking crucial information, which you could have had a better chance for, if you had a price range suggestion or something, then your cards will lose value during exchanges, and you will not only have to swim against inflation anymore. Just for clarification.

I am just curious to see how things evolve and what the community will do with it, especially since this is a free and non-P2W game, where frusration and such are no longer a tool to generate sales. It is so interesting because whatever shit goes down, it was a lot more than less in our hands and it did not come from the management. Everyone can have what he/she wants, just by playing the game. It has never been easier. Let us see if we naturally start to make it unneccessarily hard for some of us ^^

Edited by shroomion
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Thats exactly it, the current system is very easy to understand because it is not complex and it gives u a constant supply of cards that enables one to gather a nice collection.

And lets be real, it is probably for the better that not everyone can afford an amii monument after 1 day of playing, it would just rob them of the nice experience to discover the game.

So i think we can absolutely agree that the current system is in a nice state. Im also not too worried about price manipulation because there is simply no need for it, after just 1 month of playing i could buy all the cards i want by just playing. In case it still happens, it is probably possible to track the ones doing it and punish them accordingly. That would be the prefered option i guess because i like the focus on making it easy to get into the game for beginners so much.

 

 Im sorry i brought the inflation topic to the thread, i didnt want to distract from the original discussion but its connected indeed. The inflation we see is an outcome of the large supply of bfp.

More importantly, prices will always follow expectations narrowly. You can see it as a self fullfilling prophecy. Imagine you got the cards you want and are now building up excess bfp. The question is what will you do with them. When you see prices are rising (or more precisly, when u expect prices will rise), you just buy cards you dont need. Thus, the demand for cards is increasing (id say supply is very stable over time) and there is an upward pressure on prices. Just by the expectation the prices increase. This would of course also work vice versa.

 

Edited by Klizzix
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One little updadet to the toppic.

At first thx for the tipp with smj, i use it now. And in this context one little nice example what is going wrong and has to be regulated. 4 days ago I wanted to buy an ashpyroman ( price was on 210 on this point) but I missed some bfp so I waited on next day that I can buy him after make my daily quests. Tadaaaa....over the night someone bought of aspyroman and pushed the price on 650 nice. Ok, I waited that the price will normalize again. Ist stabilized tow days later between 230 and 270 (i bought i on 265, 55 bfp over the last). Today the next greedy  as***** comes around the corner and pusched it to 725 --- nice.  Meanwhile price is on 449 again. What you can see on this example and when you compare the price developement of other cards on smj is, that usually after a buyout (and rdicolus increased sell-price) the price stabilized itself, but on a much higher level since befor the buyout.  And the result of this more and more artifical riced cardprices  only becaus of the pricemaipulation of some people whit enough bfp. I thik this development is verry toxic for this game because its verry frustrating for the payers to grind more and more to get the wanted card ony to pay out some creedy as*****. This buyouts must be regulated ore I see black for this game.  I realy pissed of these situation (two friends of me who playing bf are  thinking about this in the same way ...and I think many other people too) .

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5 hours ago, Bruno18 said:

As supplement some example cards which I observed over some time on https://smj.herokuapp.com/card

Overlord, Cultist Master, Ashbone Pyro, Grim Bahir, Forest Eleder, Primeval Watcher,....ect. You can find much more cards with this pricedevelopement (manipulated for the own advantage of some people on the cost of the rest of the bf-society) on smj.

If more and more cards are being pumped up in price then it's more likely to go even or profit with every booster you decide to open. If the prices rise, you don't buy individuals, you open packs.

Since we can't buy anything for actual money this is your only option given that booster prices are fixed. Either this or you wait x days for the prices to normalize again.

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Taxing feels bad, and it could just make things worse (e.g less people list items, easier to manipulate markets).

Imo, just add price ceilings and floors, so in the worst case we know the max price that newcomers will have to pay to get deck x or card y.

I like trading, its a big part of why I like the game, but the market is very punishing to players who don't follow it and I don't think newcomers or others should be punished for not wanting to invest time into the market.

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